When Did People Start Eating Shmura Maztos The Entire Pesach?

Home Coffeeroom Bais Medrash Minhagim When Did People Start Eating Shmura Maztos The Entire Pesach?

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  • #1486791

    CTRebbe
    Participant

    The Mishna brerura (siman 453 SK 25) says that if you want to be super frum its a nice idea for every day other than seder night to eat maztos that were guarded from the grinding of the wheat or at least from the kneading of the dough. He does not mention anything about eating shmura matzos from the cutting of the wheat for all eight days. When did we begin to be more frum than the super frummies in the time of the MB?

    #1486931

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    In the late 1990s when the price of shmurah matzoh dropped below $20/lb….

    #1486928

    laskern
    Participant

    I think it is based on the GRA’s view.

    #1486917

    Joseph
    Participant

    What kind of matzah do you think the Yidden ate in Radun and Brisk for the last six days of Pesach in the times of the Chofetz Chaim and the hundred years before him?

    #1486947

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    I think in the times of the Mechaber. (453:4)

    #1486944

    yitzchokm
    Participant

    Since we left Egypt

    #1486956

    Joseph
    Participant

    OP: If you want to be lax about it, no one’s stopping you. But don’t try fooling anyone or even yourself that you’re doing what we did in the Alte Heim.

    #1486957

    from Long Island
    Participant

    My Bubby (from Russia & very poor) said they only ate Shmura Matzo in Meshbish, BUT, unless you were male & over 13, no one else ate the matzo during Chol HaMoed, everyone else just ate potatos. And on Yontif, they only used 1 matza a meal.

    We have been using ONLY Shmura for 40 years. But it was so expensive years ago, that there was a trade off – my kids did not get new clothes for Pesach, they had to wait for Shavous. It was a true sacrifice to only use Shmura. Today, it is much, much more affordable. One of my Sons-in-Law, who bakes his own, spends $100. a kilo, for the Matzah. It is for him, and everyone at Seder, the rest of Yom Tov, the rest of the family eats “regular Shmura.

    #1487527

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Where do chazal bring down that during yetzias mitzrayim and the subsequent time of dor ha’midbar yidden ate only shmurah matzoh?

    #1487537

    akuperma
    Participant

    Shouldn’t you be asking when did people starting eating non-shmurah matzah, other than in situations where shmurah was unavailable? Obviously there can be situation where one is unable to obtain shmurah flour and there was a heter to use non-shmurah flour, but during normal times (not durings wars, famines, pogroms, etc.) people always arranged with the farmers to obtain shmurah flour.

    #1487632

    laskern
    Participant

    There are two kinds of Shamura of one is positive and the other is negative. Positively, we must watch the matzos from kneading so that it should be baked for matzos and negatively we have to watch the matzos from cutting that it should not become chametz. Tosefas in Betza 3:1 on the top of the page brings the Yerushalmi that on yom tov we are only allowed to work for food needs from kneading on. So therefore it follows that watching the matzos is also from kneading on. But if learn that yom tov you allowed to do work for food needs from cutting that the watching of the matzos would also be from cutting.

    #1487589

    bp27
    Participant

    In Europe most people ate non Shmurah Matzah (except for the sedorim). I heard from someone old enough to remember that in Munkatch there were 7 Matzah Bakeries. 2 were Shmurah and 5 were not. All were hand matzos, of course. (A concept that no longer exists, hand non-shmurah matzah.)

    #1487744

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Where do chazal bring down that during yetzias mitzrayim and the subsequent time of dor ha’midbar yidden ate only shmurah matzoh?

    ושמרתם את המצות is a פסוק

    #1487746

    laskern
    Participant

    There is an argument in O”CH MB sk 13 if cutting from the attached is oral according to the Mechaber but some rishonim say that is biblical. This is based on the Yerushalmi above.

    #1487748

    CTRebbe
    Participant

    It seems that some people are unfamiliar with the concept that stores do sell machine matzos that are not shmura and are much cheaper than machine shmura. The really cheap ones (a dollar a box) do not clean the machines in between runs and rely on the accepted psak that the dough (chometz) that is mixed in before pesach is batul. If you want to be more machmir for the shitah of the Rambam and say the dough is not batul you can still get 18-minute matzos which are about half the cost of machine shmura. My point is that it would seem that what is required to be shmura for all meals other than the seder the cheaper matzahs do qualify. would qualify.

    #1487750

    Geordie613
    Participant

    CTRebbe, no need to be sarcastic about how people are mehader in mitzvos where we can nowadays. People didn’t drive Lexus’s (or whatever) in the time of the MB either, not even the super rich people of the world. If people can indulge in gashmiusdikke luxuries, why do you begrudge when they indulge in hiddurim in mitzvos?!

    Just to elaborate on what laskern wrote earlier. The Shitas HaGr”a is that Matza, besides for the seder night/s, is a mitzva kiyumis. That means that every piece of matza we eat on pesach lesheim mitzva, is a kiyum of the mitzva of matza. Therefore it follows, that it needs to be made lesheim mitzvas matza, even from shaas ketzira. Personally, that’s why my family has shemura matza the whole pesach. We don’t use shemura matza meal, because kneidlach are the mitzva of oneg yomtov, but not the mitzva of matza.

    #1487762

    yitzchokm
    Participant

    The yidden eat motza in Egypt before they left

    #1487751

    laskern
    Participant

    I clarify what I said before. The two posukim are next to each other. In Parshas Bo Shamos 12:16 talks about the permission on yom tov for אוכל נפש. Whereas in the next pasuk it talks about ושמרתם את המצות. If we say that it refers to kneading, then they are both kneading, but if it refers to cutting from the attached, then they both refer to cutting.

    • This reply was modified 6 months, 1 week ago by  YW Moderator-100.
    • This reply was modified 6 months, 1 week ago by  laskern.
    #1487773

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    No need to indulge. It’s not enough to CTRebbe to have what to rely. He needs to provoke the machmirim until the say something and he can cry discrimination and walk around with a brownie badge to tolerance and superiority complex about being less frum.

    How’s that? Is that the response you were looking for to run with?

    #1487806

    CTRebbe
    Participant

    Oh yeah and I am aware of the Gra and I believe the Mishna Brurah was also aware when he wrote it. Strange that when he is mentioning that “Yisroel are holy people” he does not say anything about eating shmura from the time of harvest.
    If you drive a Lexus and keep a super chumra I am not talking to you. If you struggle to make ends meet and do not pay full tuition perhaps you should reconsider this super chumra. If you go to pesach by your parents or -in-laws and they struggle financially and insist on a super chumra the same issue applies.

    #1487804

    CTRebbe
    Participant

    Laskern-I don’t know where you got that sevara from but it is clearly against halacha.

    Neville CB-No need to get nasty. I am simply questioning a practice that many have taken on as a given often at huge expense. That expense puts extra pressure on families that are already under pressure. If indeed the practice has been taken on as an extreme super hiddur chumrah that was not practiced 50-60 years ago (when many people ate Streit’s and Horowitz Margeretin matzos) then perhaps people should be aware of that and not take on extra chumros at the expense of others.
    I do think it is possible to have a level-headed halachic discussion without using the anonymity of the internet as a tool to say things you would not say to my face. Let us read the coffee room rules as our boundary and the Torah as our guide for speech with each other. (Whether you can see my face or not)

    #1487810

    Geordie613
    Participant

    Thank you NCB. I was just trying to be (Britishly) nice.

    #1487860

    Joseph
    Participant

    CTR, why are you looking at 50-60 years ago America instead of 100-200 years ago Europe?

    #1487877

    Geordie613
    Participant

    CTR, If you look at this thread it was you who began thisbthread abrasively. I was trying to lower the tone. Pleasr don’t make brash assumptions about people you don’t really know.

    #1487887

    yitzchokm
    Participant

    CTR

    You seem to be very upset about something, I can’t pinpoint exactly what. It’s also possible that over the years people started realizing that Yom Tov expenses are completely free.

    And since it’s free, it’s important to get the very best you can afford.

    #1487901

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    when many people ate Streit’s and Horowitz Margeretin matzos

    Those same people probably didn’t cover their hair, etc.

    I’m not judging them; their mesiras nefesh to be frum vastly exceeded ours, but it’s simply not fair to compare religious standards. We are simply more educated.

    #1487905

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    150-200 years ago in the alter heim I think people baked their own Matza, very few people do that nowadays (I’m sure there are some, but very few)

    #1487910

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    You seem to be very upset about something, I can’t pinpoint exactly what. It’s also possible that over the years people started realizing that Yom Tov expenses are completely free.

    And since it’s free, it’s important to get the very best you can afford.

    By that token one should use ONLY Baron Rothschild wine at the seder and serve Kobe Beef or Turducken, with some Fois Gras, After all is all paid for

    #1487951

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    CTRebbe: You wrote – ” Strange that when he is mentioning that “Yisroel are holy people” he does not say anything about eating shmura from the time of harvest.” However, the Shaarei Teshuva in Siman 453 states outright YEISH NOHAGIN SHEKOL HAMATZA SHEHOICHEL B’PESACH TIHIYEH MEYCHITIM SHEHMURIM MISHAS KETZIRAH.

    http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14169&st=&pgnum=94

    #1487991

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    Interesting article on the Star-K website “FROM WHEATFIELD TO PESACH TABLE: STAR-K KOSHER CERTIFICATION TAKES YOU BEHIND THE SCENES AT MIGRASH FARM” about “Shmura Mishas Ketzirah”.

    #1488001

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    CTRebbe: You keep referring to this as a “super chumra”. I think you are confusing two issues. Many matzos are made from Shmura Mishas Ketzira (both hand and machine). Using hand made matzos is looked upon as a chumra (as I have taught my children it is a chumra)…….Shmura Mishas Ketzira is a “chatchila” not a chumra. Many individuals use Machine made Matzah Shmura (which is approximately 1/2 the price of hand made). And while I may be struggling financially, I cut back on certain chol hamoed entertainment to cover the cost of my matzah.

    #1488009

    laskern
    Participant

    I left out the siman about the MB SK 13 it is O”CH Hilchas Yom Tov 495:2
    where the Mechaber holds that cutting from the attached on yom tov is only forbidden orally. Therefore according to the Yerushalmi in Betza 8:2 brought down in Tosfas on daf 3 at the end from Rabbi Nesanel Mikinun
    the guarding of matzos from chometz would also be from cutting on.

    #1488091

    GAON
    Participant

    “שמרתם את המצות is a פסוק”
    The above pertains ONLY to the Matzos you are Yotzei, otherwise CT has a good point it is a Chumrah.
    Personally, I think people are just confusing the first days with all the rest.
    Especially with not eating Machine Matzos, unless you are from the ones that see it as Chametz, (as per Devrei Chaim of Sanz), otherwise the main conflict (if you read thru the Teshuvos) on Machine Matzos was whether you can be Yotzei the Lishmah etc as per the Mitzvah.

    “Just to elaborate on what laskern wrote earlier. The Shitas HaGr”a is that Matza, besides for the seder night/s, is a mitzva kiyumis”

    The GR”A is not like Shu”A and all other rishonim. (There is a Chazkuny that upholds so). In any case, you can eat ONE kezayis each day and you are fine. The rest can be from the above especially for kids…

    BP – “In Europe most people ate non Shmurah Matzah (except for the sedorim). I heard from someone old enough to remember that in Munkatch there were 7 Matzah Bakeries

    See below informative link from the Munkatcher how it was done in his times (and the shitas haGR”A). Many didn’t eat any Matzos all the rest of the days:

    http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=4751&st=&pgnum=224

    Also, see Sdei Chemed regarding eating Matzoh as per shitas haGR”A – he quotes a minhag (i.e. Am Haratzos) some had to recite a bracha all seven days

    http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14155&st=&pgnum=403

    #1488135

    Joseph
    Participant

    Gaon, iac made an excellent point. It is a l’chatchila not a chumra.

    #1488141

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    שמרתם את המצות is a פסוק”
    The above pertains ONLY to the Matzos you are Yotzei, otherwise CT has a good point it is a Chumrah.

    I was addressing GH, not CTR, which is why I provided the quote in italics.

    #1488144

    laskern
    Participant

    Gaon, Making a brocho on matzah all seven days like sukkah is a question of the baal hamoar in arba pesochim. He answers that you are eating it as bread not like matzos but sukkah you must go to sleep.

    #1488145

    laskern
    Participant

    If we follow the Yerushalmi above that yom tov is tied to the guarding of the matzos, then it is a lakatchila.

    #1488146

    yitzchokm
    Participant

    zahavasdad

    “Best you can afford” is key.

    I’m sure חז”ל appreciates your sarcasm

    #1488173

    GAON
    Participant

    Jos/ias

    “However, the Shaarei Teshuva in Siman 453 states outright YEISH NOHAGIN SHEKOL HAMATZA SHEHOICHEL B’PESACH TIHIYEH MEYCHITIM SHEHMURIM MISHAS KETZIRAH.

    http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14169&st=&pgnum=94

    The very SHA”T clearly says – during the rest of the days – is a chumrah and Prishas that according to many it does not even require Haterah if one wishes to eat non-shmurah.

    http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14169&st=&pgnum=96

    In any case, if one can not afford (or is tight budget) he can certainly no doubt give it to the kids.

    #1488189

    5ish
    Participant

    “than the super frummies in the time of the MB?”

    Please read some history books that details both the terrible religious situation and terrible poverty of Eastern Europe and then get back to us.

    #1488212

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    gaon: The SHA”T states that in the name of the Pri Chadash. The initial Shita is quoted from the Divrei Yosef. The OP seems to think that using Matza Smura Mishas Ketzira is something “new” when obviously it is not.

    One does not have a chiyuv to eat matza except on thef irst night; after that if he wants to eat “bread” it has to be non-chametz. What I don’t understand is why it bothers the OP if I want to eat from matza that is Shmura Mishas Ketzira? I don’t know anyone forcing someone else to eat from this type of matza.

    #1488214

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    “Best you can afford” is key.

    Most people cannot afford eating Hand Shmurah the entire pesach, but they do it anyway, especialy if they have a large family. A weeks supply for Pesach can be your rent or mortgage payment for a month at Brooklyn prices

    #1488245

    laskern
    Participant

    What about machine shmura?

    #1488247

    laskern
    Participant

    Even hand matzos you only need one pound for the sedorim.

    #1488265

    GAON
    Participant

    isa,

    On top of that the Pri”C is also chumarah as per the Noda beYehuda. See the very SHA”T the N”B stating that even on the Matzos of the first days the minhag was to use non-shmurah

    ZD,

    As per the Noda Beyhudah and many others if you can not afford it – you can certainly eat it on the rest of the days and no need to say children..

    In my opinion, the flour they use could very much be much better than the flour (Kemach Min HaShuk) the N”B and the Pri”C is referring to (if it has a good hechsher)…

    #1488587

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    Laskern: Depends on how thick the matzos are. I use matzos that only have 6 matzos to a pound.

    ZD: You either overstated the price of matza or understated rent/mortgage. One can buy matzos for ~$20 – $25 a lb. Even a large mishpacha would only spend between Between $400 – 600 for matza.

    #1488577

    CTRebbe
    Participant

    I do not know for a fact what type of flour the machine matza bakeries use. My guess is that they do not just buy gold medal flour. I assume (again not based on fact-someone correct me if they can) that matza bakeries use flour that was ground for the purpose of matza. In that case it would qualify as “shomer mishaas techina” which the MB says is kept by “holy Jews”.
    I apologize for using flippant language which some may have read as too harsh. Instead of saying super frummies I should have used the language of the MB “Yisreol kedoshim heim….”
    My point was not to belittle those who take on additional chumros. It was merely to enlighten those who may not be aware that shmura matza is not required for meals other than the seder. Those who sacrifice and cut down on other expenses for the sake of fulfilling greater hidurim should also be praised. I also genuinely wanted to know what did the average Orthodox Ben Torah Yorei shomayim do 60-100 years ago. This is all really relevant for those who do not consider machine matzos to be chametz (machine vs. hand debate). If anyone has historical data it would be appreciated. Yes the input of From LI and BP 27 is appreciated and very interesting

    #1488796

    laskern
    Participant

    Gaon, is there a relationship between the work allowed on yom tov with the guarding of matzos as the Yerushalmi Betza 8:2 as discussed above?

    #1488816

    laskern
    Participant

    Do children need guarding meshaas ketzira for mitzvas matzo?

    #1488879

    laskern
    Participant

    CTRebbe, I figure you are using the words of the Baer Hetev in siman 453
    sk 8.

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