YWN Coffee Room » Decaffeinated Coffee » Rants

Where is Rabbi Levin On CT Shooting?!

(32 posts)

Tags:

No tags yet.

  1. Yenta
    Member

    Come on Rabbi Levin!!! Where ARE you?!?!?!

    The entire world is waiting for your words of wisdom that 20 innocent children were killed in cold blood happened because of gay marriage.

    You are your wonderful esteemed talmid "Rabbi" Nosson Leiter. The man who caused a colossal chillul hashem after hurricane Sandy. Where are you two baalei ruach hakodesh?

    Shocking that they have not yet released a statement on this. We always are so proud of the wonderful kiddush hashem you make after these horrific events unfold.

    Please don't let us down!!!

    Posted 1 year ago #
  2. rebdoniel
    Modern/Open Orthodox

    Let's not defame these 2 rabbonim chashuvim. You may be liberal politically and disagree with them. But don't insult them on a public forum, That is not a proper approach.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  3. HaKatan
    Gadol Yihiyeh

    I agree with rebdoniel here.

    Yenta, I don't believe you thought through the matter before posting what you did.

    We don't know Hashem's ways, and the Newtown, CT massacre is difficult to comprehend.

    Also, the two incidents are not comparable.

    In CT, an individual with his own free-will acted as he did, with the terrible results that followed.

    In Sandy, on the other hand, Hashem, using His "forces of nature", orchestrated a powerful show of destruction that caused billions of dollars in damage without any weapons.

    So to try to understand CT, one has to first understand the parameters of bechira.

    But to explain Sandy, there is no immediately apparent factor of bechira because this wasn't bullets from a human's gun but rather water from Hashem's "nature".

    So let's take what we do know.
    This storm, Sandy, seems to have been a wildly unpredictable and major disruption of the "natural order". If one is perfectly objective, leaving any rights issues out of the equation, Toeiva marriage is, of course, the same thing. It takes a male and female to physically conceive a child. Men and women are "wired" differently, and children benefit from having two parents, one of each perspective. This is obvious, well known and clear, even from a secular perspective.

    We also have Chazal who tell us that the only zechus the nations have is that they don't write a kesuba bein Ish LiIsh. This storm also happened right after we read about the mahapeichas Sedom, whose name is synonymous with the basic act of Mishkav Zachar.

    Governor Cuomo also ran on the platform that he would legalize this abomination.

    So, despite certain obvious questions, I certainly see why the Rabbis you quoted came to the conclusion they did.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  4. oomis
    Best Bubby EVER

    Both Sandy occurrences, the hurricane and Sandy Hook, resulted in terrible devastation. I find it odd that the name is repeated only a mere month after the first nisayon.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  5. Ben Levi
    Member

    HaKotan,

    Just to add to what you wrote.

    Chazal do state that the mabul came about as a result of Mishkav Zochor.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  6. Health
    Member

    This topic is pure Motzay Shem Ra. You don't have to agree with these two Rabbis in their outspoken views on Toeiva, but who gave you the right to start a topic making fun of them for no reason? It's not such a far fetch to say hurricaines have to do with Toeiva -it has nothing to do with Ruach Hakodesh. The bible story of the flood wasn't just given down for childrens' bedtime stories. Everything in the Torah is meant for us to learn from. They are just learning from the Mabul and applying it in our day & age.
    You don't have to listen to their Mussar about Toeiva, but why make fun? You could just be like the Goyim -nothing happens because of G-d - hurricaines are because of global warming. But there is nothing wrong with learning some Mussar from the hurricaine.
    I'm surprised the Mods let this OP pass through the screening.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  7. yaakov doe
    Member

    I, for one, appreciate Rabbi Levin remaining silent on this matter.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  8. HaKatan
    Gadol Yihiyeh

    Thank you, Ben Levi. If I recall correctly, Chazal does say, as you mentioned, that mishkav zachar was what sealed the fate of the Dor HaMabul, resulting in the destruction of almost the entire world.

    Regardless of whether or not it's appropriate to make a public statement on the matter, I'm surprised any Torah Jew could be so cavalier about toeiva marriage when Hashem called it an abomination straight out in the Torah.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  9. JayMatt19
    Member

    @Joseph, @HaKatan, @Ben Levi (note, I believe I'm adressing the same person)

    For sake of this forum, lets agree to disagree on Levin. Each of our positions have been debated both in public and via email. and I do not want to hijack the thread into a debate about that man,

    I would like to take you to town on your following statement

    Also, the two incidents are not comparable.

    In CT, an individual with his own free-will acted as he did, with the terrible results that followed.

    In Sandy, on the other hand, Hashem, using His "forces of nature", orchestrated a powerful show of destruction that caused billions of dollars in damage without any weapons.

    So to try to understand CT, one has to first understand the parameters of bechira.

    I dont understand your point. Are you saying that the people harmed by the hurricane were harmed by G-d and the people harmed by man weren't harmed by G-d?
    How does bechira factor into this?
    Yes, He had the bechira to choose to TRY to do this horrible crime, but he, like everyone else, needed siyata d'shmaya, did he not?
    Would you say the same thing about bechira had it been an arab extremist in a school in Israel? Do you say the same thing about Leiby Kletzky?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  10. Health
    Member

    Jay -Your logic is faulty. We just had a discussion in the CR that many Shittos hold you can Kill s/o without Hashem's permission.
    And even if you hold like those that you can't -what makes you think this has to do with Toeiva?
    A hurricaine is similar enough to a Mabul that a person can link the two without being a Novi.
    What is bothering you? That a Rabbi or two got up and said that destruction comes from Toevia marriage? That he told the Goyim that there is a G-d and he is a punishing G-d? That he spoke in the name of Klal Yisroel and he didn't ask you permission? To answer this - he spoke in his own name.
    Because a lot of Jews don't like the publicity he gets -so they say he can't possibly know what he's talking about.
    Yes, he can surmise that hurricaines come from Toeiva. This is what Hashem wants Jews to do. This is why we have many "Stories" in the Torah. He never claimed he knew the reason 100% but he is learning up from the Torah.
    If you learned the Toechacha -you'd see that if a tragedy befalls us we have to try and learn from it -if you ignore it -Hashem gets even more angry and brings even worse punishment.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  11. oomis
    Best Bubby EVER

    I am always leery when someone says definitively that "this or that" tragedy was because of a) toeiva b) lack of women's tznius (my personal favorite) c) loshon hara etc. None of us is privy to Hashem's reasons for anything that occurs in the world. While the Dor Hamabul clearly was deserving of its fate, the one family who were not reshaim WERE saved.

    Here, people, GOOD people, frum Yidden were indiscriminately horribly damaged in the superstorm along with those who possibly might have been deserving of punishment for whatever... it is not up to us to speculate. Innocent children were murdered in Connecticut, brave staff members, one who threw her body over the children trying in vain to save them, were butchered. This shooting was the act of a deranged person. And while Hashem ALLOWED it to happen, I cannot imagine that He would WANT it to happen.

    I believe that people (rabbanim and laypersons alike)have the right to express their opinion as to why a particular tragedy befalls us. But I also believe that unless they are blessed with some nevuah to which none of the rest of us has access, that they should be careful not to ascribe a certainty to that opinion. Only Hashem knows for sure.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  12. chalilavchas
    Member

    Health,

    If you learned the Toechacha -you'd see that if a tragedy befalls us we have to try and learn from it -if you ignore it -Hashem gets even more angry and brings even worse punishment.

    So what is it you suggest Klal Yisroel do to stop homosexuality in the world?

    If you answer- vote the politicians backing it and fighting for gay rights, out of office, its not happening in this life. The ultra-frum velt is SO dependent on programs (mainly because of lack of secular education and the current state of the economy), they need the liberal politicians in office for survival, to put bread on the table. The same politicians offering goodies to the masses, are the ones who are pro-gay rights.

    Any other suggestions? Perhaps door to door missionaries, asking people are you gay, or perhaps loud demonstrations where people say dumb things, calling gays names, etc that the secular media has fun with and makes everyone ache from laughter? That will certainly make the frum velt very popular. ; (

    Posted 1 year ago #
  13. cantgetit
    Joseph

    Oomis: Hashem takes away tzadikim from the world as punishment for the sins of non-tzadikim. So we see that innocent people are punished for the aveiros of others.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  14. JayMatt19
    Member

    @Health, you are missing my point.
    1st of all, as I said in my into, I am not going to discuss Levin, so I will not. My post was solely based upon Joseph's comment that Hurricane is directly Yad Hashem and that the cruel animal in CT had bechira, so that somehow limits the ability for it to have been a gezaira from Hashem, thus preventing it from being for a certain reason (note, I am arguing the Torah here, not the individual events and not their causes)

    Your logic is faulty.

    Thanks for toning it down and not calling mt a lying antisemite

    What is bothering you?

    The fact that Joseph is claiming that one CAN say a hurricane is cause of toeva and that the shooting can't be cause of bechira.
    Bechira is my focus, not the hurricane, not the same gender unions, not even Levin.

    After Nesana Tokef was ask Mi b'Cherev, Mi b'Mayim (who will die via sword, who will die via water). We say that Hashem does both. Yet the water is "directly from Hashem" and the sword was in someone's hand! Nevertheless, they were both a gezeira from Hashem, no mention of bechira.
    (and yes, we also say mi b'kizo mi lo b'kitzo, who in their proper time, who not in their proper time, I agree that people die not in their proper time, how can I not?)

    Posted 1 year ago #
  15. HaKatan
    Gadol Yihiyeh

    JayMatt, for the record, I do not post under any other screen name, and I do not know who Joseph and Ben Levi are.

    Health already answered your question and, as I noted above, I wasn't addressing the propriety of discussing this in public (i.e. to the secular press).

    I stand by my original post, that there is a major difference between Sandy and Sandy Hook.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  16. chalilavchas
    Member

    To those who feel we should be doing more about homosexuality and other Aveiros not committed specifically by us, please read my above post, directed at Health.

    Please tell us what we can do to rid the world of homosexuality, the reason some feel we are getting punishment from Above.

    Health, cantgetit and others: I cantgetit.

    What are we to do?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  17. popa_bar_abba
    Incorrigible; eccentric; somewhere between mean and average; sometimes only a bit over the top; arbitrarily engaged in cynicism.

    I don't know anything about these rabbis, but I do know this:

    Catastrophes do happen because of aveiros.

    What they said last time may have not been a wise thing to speak publicly, and probably ridiculous to claim because we cannot know the reason (as Oomis rightly points out) but why are you so sure it is wrong, that you make fun of it? It sounds like you think it is impossible that is the reason.

    Oomis: I disagree with you somewhat. I think that anything that happens is precisely what G-d wanted to happen, and that He orchestrates it happening. I think G-d made the Holocaust happen, purposefully, and willfully. I also believe it pains G-d to hurt us, but it pains you when you go to the dentist also and you still do so willfully purposely and intentionally.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  18. Let's be careful now. Sandy was, obviously, an "act of God" and as such messages may be taken (tho I am strongly opposed to equate Sandy or other such things with specifics - that's the job of a Navi).
    This terrible tragedy was perpetrated by a human being, acting with free will.
    Be very, very careful.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  19. Health
    Member

    chalilavchas -"So what is it you suggest Klal Yisroel do to stop homosexuality in the world?
    If you answer- vote the politicians backing it and fighting for gay rights, out of office, its not happening in this life. The ultra-frum velt is SO dependent on programs (mainly because of lack of secular education and the current state of the economy), they need the liberal politicians in office for survival, to put bread on the table. The same politicians offering goodies to the masses, are the ones who are pro-gay rights."

    Good guess. That is exactly my suggestion! I don't vote for these types, even though I don't want Yidden who Need it to lose Social Programs. Because this is another liberal lie. Even the most staunch con can't possibly stop all the programs overnite. Yes, they will limit it -be more strict, etc. And this is a good thing -it will only go the ones that Really Need it.
    Do you have any idea how much fraud there is in just Medicare & Medicaid?
    As far as Jews not changing their voting policies -they are not the least bit Ehrlich & will have to give a Din V'chesbon - how it's more important to them to line their own pockets than to stop this Toeiva madness!

    Posted 1 year ago #
  20. Health
    Member

    JayMatt19 -"@Health, you are missing my point.
    1st of all, as I said in my into, I am not going to discuss Levin, so I will not. My post was solely based upon Joseph's comment that Hurricane is directly Yad Hashem and that the cruel animal in CT had bechira, so that somehow limits the ability for it to have been a gezaira from Hashem, thus preventing it from being for a certain reason (note, I am arguing the Torah here, not the individual events and not their causes)"

    Yes, I did answer this -"We just had a discussion in the CR that many Shittos hold you can Kill s/o without Hashem's permission."

    So they hold this 20 yo massacre has nothing to do with G-d.

    And even if it did - like those Shittos - nothing would make it point to Toeiva anymore than any other Aveira, as opposed to a hurricaine. They do many Aveiros here. As a matter of fact, the Jews should think what they did wrong because "No punishments come to this world only because of Jews" (Chazal). One of the exceptions to this that you see from the Torah is Toeiva.

    "Thanks for toning it down and not calling mt a lying antisemite"

    Oh, btw Pollard is in the news again. It seems he never even passed info about the US to Israel only about other countries. Talk about Antisemitism.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  21. oomis
    Best Bubby EVER

    Oomis: I disagree with you somewhat. I think that anything that happens is precisely what G-d wanted to happen, and that He orchestrates it happening. I think G-d made the Holocaust happen, purposefully, and willfully. I also believe it pains G-d to hurt us, but it pains you when you go to the dentist also and you still do so willfully purposely and intentionally."

    Poppa: We actually do not disagree. When I say that I don't think Hashem "wants" good people/innocent children to be hurt, what I mean is that although nothing happens in a vacuum, without His allowance of it, He wants rather that all people should live Torahdig, (or in the case of non-Jews honest, moral) lives. Hitler Y"Sh WANTED innocent men, women, and children to die horrifically, just because they were Jews. That is not what Hashem wants, it just may be what Hashem orchestrates to happen/does not prevent from happening. I guess this is a semantic issue, and perhaps I was not precise enough in my definition. I DO agree with you. Absolutely.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  22. chalilavchas
    Member

    Health,

    As far as Jews not changing their voting policies -they are not the least bit Ehrlich & will have to give a Din V'chesbon - how it's more important to them to line their own pockets than to stop this Toeiva madness!

    90% if not more, of the Grand Rabbis in Brooklyn are aligned with the Democratic voting machine (who very proudly support gay rights), and are telling their flock that thats what is best for them. What do you propose to change that?

    Perhaps you can come up with other suggestions that are more realistic.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  23. Health
    Member

    chalilavchas -"90% if not more, of the Grand Rabbis in Brooklyn are aligned with the Democratic voting machine (who very proudly support gay rights), and are telling their flock that thats what is best for them. What do you propose to change that?"

    Since I have a Chiyuv to be Dan L'caf Zecus, esp. leaders like Rebbes, I have to say they must be ignorant when it comes to American politics. They probably mistakenly think that the Goyim would pass these laws anyway. They wouldn't - so publicity esp. in forums like this will perhaps filter down to them and they will see their mistake. I'm sure they don't realize that what they're doing is wrong acc. to the Torah. If I personally had Shaychus with these people I'd try to influence them.
    Your attitude of - Who cares - we can't change anything -is very wrong. Anything can be changed but it takes effort.
    I know in Lakewood a lot of Jews were going to vote for Corzine, but once they got a Psak from either R' Kaniefsky or R' Shteinman
    most didn't end up voting for him Lmeisseh because he was pro- Toeiva.
    This pro-liberal politicians is based on ignorance, nothing more.
    And ignorance can always be changed.
    This is why I tend to think people like R' Levin are doing more good than harm. Of course most Jews don't like that approach of "in your face", but the fact is - he is combatting this ignorance that makes Toeiva PC in our generation.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  24. chalilavchas
    Member

    This is why I tend to think people like R' Levin are doing more good than harm. Of course most Jews don't like that approach of "in your face", but the fact is - he is combatting this ignorance that makes Toeiva PC in our generation.

    Im not looking to insult anyone, but if effectiveness is the goal, while everyone is allowed freedom of speech, unfortunately, if Levin had a more "Malcolm Hoenlein" (his manner came to my mind) way of speaking and looking, Levin's and the Torah's ideas would be taken MUCH more seriously (isnt that what we want?). That style presents well to the masses and our Oilem has many such people who should be coaxed to come forward and speak publicly to represent our views. Some do us a disservice rather than a service.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  25. Health
    Member

    chalilavchas -"if Levin had a more "Malcolm Hoenlein" (his manner came to my mind) way of speaking and looking, Levin's and the Torah's ideas would be taken MUCH more seriously (isnt that what we want?). That style presents well to the masses and our Oilem has many such people who should be coaxed to come forward and speak publicly to represent our views. Some do us a disservice rather than a service."

    Here is where we disagree. Let me explain. If Rabbi Levin came to you, me or s/o else asking how he should speak to the masses then you can tell him it's better this other way, but he hasn't asked. He decided his way is best. If there was s/o else who got up to the masses explaining the problem with the Toeiva agenda and did it in a nicer way -I'd say this is preferable. But noone has. So I'll repeat what I said before -he does more good than harm.
    He might not be doing it the right way, but IMHO his way is better than No way! A Machoh has to be made. These Toeiva marriage laws are bringing destruction to the world and this has to be made known, no matter what!

    Posted 1 year ago #
  26. chalilavchas
    Member

    Health,

    He might not be doing it the right way, but IMHO his way is better than No way!

    Thats who/what people think of when they think religious Jews. The message is lost and worse! People laugh and then feel the opposite of what the person with no social skills shouts about.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  27. popa_bar_abba
    Incorrigible; eccentric; somewhere between mean and average; sometimes only a bit over the top; arbitrarily engaged in cynicism.

    Let's be careful now. Sandy was, obviously, an "act of God" and as such messages may be taken (tho I am strongly opposed to equate Sandy or other such things with specifics - that's the job of a Navi).
    This terrible tragedy was perpetrated by a human being, acting with free will.
    Be very, very careful.

    Be careful? What are we being careful of? Are you afraid of something?

    Do you think that a person can hurt you without the will of G-d?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  28. Ben Levi
    Member

    Why oh why do I keep being accused of Being this person or that person.

    I post under one name ne one name only.

    Ben Levi.

    As for the ridiculus assumption that a person stating that Sandy Hook and Hurricane Sandy are different means Kefira in Bechira.

    That is ridiculus.

    And no we can not know for sure why something comes.

    But we do know for certain that if Hashem sends a punishment it is becuase of issurim and to issue a wake up call.

    Again as has been pointed out that is the Tochecha its pretty clear cut.

    And if we want to stop these tragedies from happening the most effective prevention is not listening to the Doofis in Chief Al Gore it's rather by making a serious Din V"Cheshbon.

    And please dont slander Chareidim or Rabbonim by stating they are all in the Democrat voting machine.

    Lakewood voted by close to 80% for Christie specifically because of the Toeivva issue.

    Where there "askonim" who felt Corzine should be backed because he would extend a highway.

    Sure.

    The Kollel Youngeleit did not listen as beared out in the facts.

    Seems to some people their Torah Values trump Money even in todays day and age.

    And the Rabbonim in Queens followed it up by all backing the Republican in Congress again becuase of Toeiva (though people tried to spin it as Isreal, it wasn't).

    Theres a famous line.

    Youre entitled to your own set of opinions but not your own set of facts.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  29. chalilavchas
    Member

    And please dont slander Chareidim or Rabbonim by stating they are all in the Democrat voting machine.

    Slander?

    slan·der
    /ˈslandər/Noun
    The action or crime of making a false spoken statement damaging to a person's reputation.

    I was referring to Brooklyn, here its no secret, and certainly NOT false. Its their highly publicized choice. A quick look in any newspaper, election time, and its as clear as can be. Any kid who can read will see whom is backing whom.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  30. cantgetit
    Joseph

    Virtually all Chareidi Rabbonim (and hamon hoam) support Republicans, especially in national elections.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  31. Ben Levi
    Member

    Rabbi Feivel Cohen the author of Badei HaShulach is one of the senior Poskim in AMerican and Senior Rov in Flatbush.
    Rabbi Hillel David is the same.
    Rabbi Yisroel Belsky shlita is A rosh Yeshiva in Torah V'das and Rov to many.
    They have all indicated quite firmly and clearly their "Conservative postions on who to vote for.
    Laws do make it hard for them to endorse from the podioum.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  32. rebdoniel
    Modern/Open Orthodox

    R' Miller was adamant that Jews cannot vote for liberal politicians. I would think the idea is that the Sheva Mitzvos create a sort of Jewish notion of public policy. We have a duty to influence society to be moral and reflect godly values.

    OTOH, many Chasidishe Jews vote Democrat because of welfare and graft and pork barrel spending, which is not kosher.

    Posted 1 year ago #

RSS feed for this topic

Reply

You must log in to post.