Where is Tevel?

Home Coffeeroom Bais Medrash Where is Tevel?

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  • #1444714

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    Lbs thread reminded me of the story of ashmedai and Shlomo hamelech when the former pulled a two headed guy out of a place called Tevel. Then he couldn’t put him back, so the guy got married (courageous wife!) and had one two headed Kid in addition to his regular one headed ones……

    Anyway I’m curious where is Tevel today? Any sources address this?

    #1446064

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Underground

    #1446097

    Sechel HaYashar
    Participant

    You’ll have to excuse my ignorance, where does this story come from? I know the other story with Shlomo Hamelech and Ashmedai is from Gittin, but where’s this one from?

    #1446129

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    I read it in aggados on nach years ago by klapholtz- I’m sure he has the source listed in the back but unfortunately I can’t currently look it up in the city I’m posted in.

    #1446130

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    @haleivi it can’t be understood Afaik because the guy tools Shlomo hamelech that the sun shines by them as well and they grow crops

    #1446188

    Joseph
    Participant

    CS: When are you wrapping up being posted to that city?

    #1446241

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    When moshiach comes, if I’m not needed anymore

    #1446345

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Then he couldn’t put him back, so the guy got married (courageous wife!) and had one two headed Kid in addition to his regular one headed ones……

    surprising, because if it was a dominant gene (this two headed thing) then all his kids should have it, if it’s a recessive gene then none of his kids should have it! (I’m saying that because I don’t think his wife had the gene, if she did it would be a totally different story)

    am I right?

    #1446461

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “am I right?”

    No

    If it is dominant then you only need one bad copy. Father has a bad copy and good copy. Mother has2 good copies. 1/2 of possible offspring will have the bad copy from father and good from mother so they have the condition. Half will have good from both and wont have condition

    It could be recessive and she is a carrier so one of their kids inherited a 2-headed gene from each parent

    It could be X-linked so father has it and his only son has it (genders of offspring arent noted)
    Ditto if it is Y linked (not common, but hey neither is having 2 heads)

    Of course spontaneous mutations are possible too. If it is recessive and already have a bad copy from father may have spontaneously mutated the second copy

    #1446414

    takahmamash
    Participant

    Tevel is a small caterer that works out of the Bait Hachayal across the street from us. They sell a huge selection of Shabbat take-out foods, which are actually pretty good. Tevel also operates the hall attached to the Bait Hachayal, which can be rented out for bar/bat mitzvah celebrations, sheva brachot, etc.

    #1446471

    WinnieThePooh
    Participant

    Just wondering CS, the only thing about this story that you wondered about was wear was Tevel? The rest you were ok with?

    CA- if two-headedness is a dominant gene, then the “guy from Tevel” could have had 1 gene for two-headedness, and 1 for one-headedness. Since he only gives one copy to each kid, each kid has a 50% chance of inheriting the dominant gene and being two-headed. If he had a large number of kids, the two headed variety would be close to 50%. But in a regular size family, it could very well be that only 1 got the gene- just like you sometimes see a family of all/mostly boys or all/mostly girls, even though it should be 50/50. Of course, this might not be a 1-gene trait, or there may be incomplete penetrance, so the laws of inheritance would be more complicated.

    #1446485

    Joseph
    Participant

    Mazal Tov takahmamash upon your making the first Chasuna of a child!

    #1446493

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    @WTP what’s the problem with the story? I didn’t finish the party with the inheritance (which shows it happened physically as it involves halacha)

    Basically after the guy died, the two headed son wanted a double portion because he claimed he was two people. The case came to Shlomo hamelech who paskened that they pour a boiling mixture over one of the heads to ascertain if he is indeed two people.

    At that the son panicked and retracted his claim as he admitted he really was only one person with two heads.

    And yeah I was always curious about where is Tevel abs also who the inhabitants of meroz are

    #1446591

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Now I remember seeing this story somewhere, not sure where

    does that apply to Siamese twins too, if one feels pain the other one does too

    and thanks to everyone who replied on the biology question, i got mixed up with my big X and small x

    #1446622

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “does that apply to Siamese twins too, if one feels pain the other one does too”

    short answer it depends

    Longer answer pain is perceived/recieved by nocioreceptors in the skin and travels to spinal cord via nerves then to the brain where it is “felt” ie sensed

    So if there is one brain then certainly any pain received by either bod will be felt by the one brain.

    If there are two brains it depends on where the nerves travel. Generally bellow the level of where they are conjoined pain will be sensed by both. though even there rt sided pain may be percieved by one brain and left by the other.

    Pain above the level of where they are conjoined like hot water on one head of a two headed set. would generally not be sensed by the other head

    for example wit hone of the most famous such sets Abby and Brittany Hensel each has touch on one side (I beleive it is the ipsilateral ie same) side

    #1446615

    Sechel HaYashar
    Participant

    “Basically after the guy died, the two headed son wanted a double portion because he claimed he was two people. The case came to Shlomo hamelech who paskened that they pour a boiling mixture over one of the heads to ascertain if he is indeed two people.”
    Ah, now I remember this story. I don’t know where the source is, but I would’ve read it in The Little Midrash Says. (Do kids still read it today?)

    #1446644

    whattosay
    Participant

    The source is a Midrash brought in the Eisenstein Oitzer Midrashim. Tosfos in Menachos brings this story as well.
    http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=2585&st=&pgnum=261
    The story starts halfway down the left column

    #1446653

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    Thanks!

    #1446846

    WinnieThePooh
    Participant

    My problem with the “story” is that it is not meant to be a story. Medrashim are not meant to be read over like some fantasy fairy tale that are entertaining. Medrashim like the one described above are hard to understand based on our rational way of life as it currently exists. To me, the concept of a sheid pulling out a 2-headed person from some nether world calls out “explain me”. I wonder- is it meant to be literal? If not, what does it symbolize? If it is literal, why was it important for chazal to pass on this event to future generations- What is it supposed to be teaching us? What do the meforshim say on it?
    I would love to hear more on this, not just the details of the “story”.

    #1446850

    takahmamash
    Participant

    Joseph, thank you, I really appreciate your good wishes! IY”H one day soon we should be able to join and celebrate all our smachot together with all of klal Yisrael!

    #1447022

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    @wtp of course there’s layers of meaning to anything in Torah, but if practical halacha came into play, that means it also happened literally hence my question.

    #1447028

    Joseph
    Participant

    Winnie, why are things that defy rationality that Chazal relate to us deemed a problem for you? Do you have the same problem when you hear the story of the ten makkos or the splitting of the sea or the creation of a golem or Chazal bringing the dead back to life?

    #1447188

    WinnieThePooh
    Participant

    To clarify: I didn’t meant to say it was a problem in of itself, i said it is a problem when it is treated as a story devoid of its real meaning. My problem isn’t in believing in the concept of a golem or techiyas hameisim or a sheid, I just want to know and understand what value stories about these very esoteric concepts brings to me. I never understood how people could produce comic strips on the Golem of Prague or Shlomo Hamelech and Ashmadia, which were around when I was younger.
    When I learned about the 10 makkos/splitting of the sea, and I’m not referring to kindergarten, I learned about how these events were critical for the formation of klal yisroel, and learned some of the wealth of meforshim on these topics. These are not mere stories. we are not meant to just open a chumash and read the text and say, oh that was a nice story. Kal V’chomer with medrash.

    CS, can you explain what you mean by practical halacha coming to play? Are you referring to the fact that they brought a shaila to Shlomo about the inheritance? I don’t follow the logic of why it must mean that it took place literally. Couldn’t that also be part of the mashal? Are we paskening halacha based on this medrash?

    #1447223

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    Sure . I learned one of the four ways you know if a medrash also happened on a physical level is if there is halacha involved- that would show it happened on the physical plane.

    Any insights you know on this story would of course be most welcome – my point here was researching extraterrestrial life from a Torah viewpoint.

    #1447432

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    As to the oddity of the story, first of all, this is not in Gemara or even Medrash Rabbah. So, if you have a hard time with it ignore it. There are other weird stuff about Shlomo Hamelech out there which, given the obsession of other nations about Shlomo Hamelech, I assume there are stories that originate from without.

    This is what happened with the famous story of the two brothers trying to lighten the load of the other in the middle of the night, on the spot of the future Bayt al-Maqdis. It appears to be an Arabic story that made its way in a couple of centuries ago.

    However, being that Tosafos mentions it, I’ll regard it as legitimate.

    Now, a Sheid is not completely a physical being. They drive physical things and are basically related to the material world, but they aren’t actually composed of matter. Perhaps it can be said that just like our soul is manifest in a body, their personality is manifest in motion, changes, and action. Therefore, the whole story about the capture of Ashmedai should be read in this light. Shlomo Hamelech knew how to capture this non-physical being to be able to utilize it’s resources. To the outside observer, there was nothing to see other than amazing success.

    In this story too, this strange guy showed up from nowhere, or perhaps he was born to a local family this way (which would explain the marrying and application of Jewish law) and the Medrash is informing us that this was Ashmedai’s doing. He pulled up this form of human from other worlds and applied it here.

    #1447429

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    There isn’t an actual Halacha derived. It mentions a Psak in the story. That is not the same thing.

    For example, the Gemara discusses distances on earth in relation to the Zmanim. We know they meant it in the full meaning of the word since they are discussing practical ramifications. However, in this case, Chazal hadn’t derived anything practical from the story.

    In fact, we don’t ‘Pasken‘ like any of Shlomo Hamelech’s trick Psakim. We can’t use motherly love, as proof of parenthood, in a Beis Din. Shlomo Hamelech saw the whole situation, it might have included Ruach Hakodesh, and being an undecidable case it might have allowed for Shuda deDayne—assumption of the judge.

    #1447573

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Chabadshlucha,

    Anyway I’m curious where is Tevel today? Any sources address this?

    According to Google Maps, it’s in southwestern Hungary, in Tolna County.

    #1447611

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Halevai

    “In fact, we don’t ‘Pasken‘ like any of Shlomo Hamelech’s trick Psakim. ”

    A melech doesnt have to decide a case based on accepted klalei hapesak.
    Similarly when Dovid was asked what he would do with someone who stole a poor mans only sheep, his reply was not. Easy he has to pay back 4 times.

    (I dont have a source of this off hand, but Rabbi Reisman often mentions it when discussing why we refer to Hashem as “melech” so much yomim noraim time, he explains its becasue a melech can take extraneous things (like motherly love or the fact that it was the only sheep) while a ordinary judge can not, we are asking Hashem to have rachmanus on us that we may not deserve if strictly judged al pi din))

    #1447666

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Ubiquitin, yes the Rambam says that a king has the right to create laws on top of the Torah, for the sake of society. And he may create his own punishments as well. In fact, even Beis Din can punish more severely than what is prescribed in the Torah if they see that the times call for it.

    However, deciding between two people who is the rightful owner is different.

    #1447661

    GAON
    Participant

    Regarding the the “two headed son” …

    It is mentioned in Tosfos Menachos 37a או קום גלי
    מי שיש לו שני ראשים באיזה מהן מניח תפילין א”ל או קום גלי או קבל עלך שמתא
    Tosfas comments
    בעולם הזה ליכא – אבל יש במדרש אשמדאי הוציא מתחת קרקע אדם א’ שיש לו שני ראשים לפני שלמה המלך ונשא אשה והוליד בנים כיוצא בו בשני ראשים וכיוצא באשתו בראש אחד וכשבאו לחלוק בנכסי אביהם מי שיש לו שני ראשים שאל שני חלקים ובאו לדין לפני שלמה . מ”ר:

    http://hebrewbooks.org/shas.aspx?mesechta=30&daf=37&format=pdf

    However see Reposnsa Shvus Yaakov (link below) Ch 4 for he paskens that it is as two bodies, see all the differences in Halcaha (it seems like a case of Siamese twins).

    http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=1519&st=&pgnum=4

    #1448529

    whattosay
    Participant

    http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=42422&st=&pgnum=42
    See the last three lines or so

    This also makes sense with the midrash, which does not say mefurash that they live in the centre of the earth

    #1448528

    whattosay
    Participant

    The Zohar this weeks parsha makes a drasha that all lands other than eretz yisroel are called Tevel. Perhaps that’s pshat in the midrash. Ashmedai brought a man from the other side of the world (hence, sun shining etc) and couldn’t put him back because of מעלין בקודש ואין מורידים

    #1448566

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    Btw I just realized Tevel is also mentioned in kapitl 34

    #1448565

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    @whattosay

    That’s very interesting. Now is there any history of two headed ancestors for the native American? Or anyone else?

    And what about the inhabitants of meroz (shiras devorah)?

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