January 8, 2018 3:07 pm at 3:07 pm #1444714
Lbs thread reminded me of the story of ashmedai and Shlomo hamelech when the former pulled a two headed guy out of a place called Tevel. Then he couldn’t put him back, so the guy got married (courageous wife!) and had one two headed Kid in addition to his regular one headed ones……
Anyway I’m curious where is Tevel today? Any sources address this?January 8, 2018 11:43 pm at 11:43 pm #1446064
UndergroundJanuary 9, 2018 6:32 am at 6:32 am #1446097
You’ll have to excuse my ignorance, where does this story come from? I know the other story with Shlomo Hamelech and Ashmedai is from Gittin, but where’s this one from?January 9, 2018 8:44 am at 8:44 am #1446129
I read it in aggados on nach years ago by klapholtz- I’m sure he has the source listed in the back but unfortunately I can’t currently look it up in the city I’m posted in.January 9, 2018 8:44 am at 8:44 am #1446130
@haleivi it can’t be understood Afaik because the guy tools Shlomo hamelech that the sun shines by them as well and they grow cropsJanuary 9, 2018 9:51 am at 9:51 am #1446188
CS: When are you wrapping up being posted to that city?January 9, 2018 11:00 am at 11:00 am #1446241
When moshiach comes, if I’m not needed anymoreJanuary 9, 2018 11:01 am at 11:01 am #1446345
Then he couldn’t put him back, so the guy got married (courageous wife!) and had one two headed Kid in addition to his regular one headed ones……
surprising, because if it was a dominant gene (this two headed thing) then all his kids should have it, if it’s a recessive gene then none of his kids should have it! (I’m saying that because I don’t think his wife had the gene, if she did it would be a totally different story)
am I right?January 9, 2018 1:09 pm at 1:09 pm #1446461
“am I right?”
If it is dominant then you only need one bad copy. Father has a bad copy and good copy. Mother has2 good copies. 1/2 of possible offspring will have the bad copy from father and good from mother so they have the condition. Half will have good from both and wont have condition
It could be recessive and she is a carrier so one of their kids inherited a 2-headed gene from each parent
It could be X-linked so father has it and his only son has it (genders of offspring arent noted)
Ditto if it is Y linked (not common, but hey neither is having 2 heads)
Of course spontaneous mutations are possible too. If it is recessive and already have a bad copy from father may have spontaneously mutated the second copyJanuary 9, 2018 1:19 pm at 1:19 pm #1446414
Tevel is a small caterer that works out of the Bait Hachayal across the street from us. They sell a huge selection of Shabbat take-out foods, which are actually pretty good. Tevel also operates the hall attached to the Bait Hachayal, which can be rented out for bar/bat mitzvah celebrations, sheva brachot, etc.January 9, 2018 1:20 pm at 1:20 pm #1446471
Just wondering CS, the only thing about this story that you wondered about was wear was Tevel? The rest you were ok with?
CA- if two-headedness is a dominant gene, then the “guy from Tevel” could have had 1 gene for two-headedness, and 1 for one-headedness. Since he only gives one copy to each kid, each kid has a 50% chance of inheriting the dominant gene and being two-headed. If he had a large number of kids, the two headed variety would be close to 50%. But in a regular size family, it could very well be that only 1 got the gene- just like you sometimes see a family of all/mostly boys or all/mostly girls, even though it should be 50/50. Of course, this might not be a 1-gene trait, or there may be incomplete penetrance, so the laws of inheritance would be more complicated.January 9, 2018 1:45 pm at 1:45 pm #1446485
Mazal Tov takahmamash upon your making the first Chasuna of a child!January 9, 2018 1:45 pm at 1:45 pm #1446493
@WTP what’s the problem with the story? I didn’t finish the party with the inheritance (which shows it happened physically as it involves halacha)
Basically after the guy died, the two headed son wanted a double portion because he claimed he was two people. The case came to Shlomo hamelech who paskened that they pour a boiling mixture over one of the heads to ascertain if he is indeed two people.
At that the son panicked and retracted his claim as he admitted he really was only one person with two heads.
And yeah I was always curious about where is Tevel abs also who the inhabitants of meroz areJanuary 9, 2018 2:42 pm at 2:42 pm #1446591
Now I remember seeing this story somewhere, not sure where
does that apply to Siamese twins too, if one feels pain the other one does too
and thanks to everyone who replied on the biology question, i got mixed up with my big X and small xJanuary 9, 2018 3:45 pm at 3:45 pm #1446622
“does that apply to Siamese twins too, if one feels pain the other one does too”
short answer it depends
Longer answer pain is perceived/recieved by nocioreceptors in the skin and travels to spinal cord via nerves then to the brain where it is “felt” ie sensed
So if there is one brain then certainly any pain received by either bod will be felt by the one brain.
If there are two brains it depends on where the nerves travel. Generally bellow the level of where they are conjoined pain will be sensed by both. though even there rt sided pain may be percieved by one brain and left by the other.
Pain above the level of where they are conjoined like hot water on one head of a two headed set. would generally not be sensed by the other head
for example wit hone of the most famous such sets Abby and Brittany Hensel each has touch on one side (I beleive it is the ipsilateral ie same) sideJanuary 9, 2018 3:45 pm at 3:45 pm #1446615
“Basically after the guy died, the two headed son wanted a double portion because he claimed he was two people. The case came to Shlomo hamelech who paskened that they pour a boiling mixture over one of the heads to ascertain if he is indeed two people.”
Ah, now I remember this story. I don’t know where the source is, but I would’ve read it in The Little Midrash Says. (Do kids still read it today?)January 9, 2018 4:05 pm at 4:05 pm #1446644
The source is a Midrash brought in the Eisenstein Oitzer Midrashim. Tosfos in Menachos brings this story as well.
The story starts halfway down the left columnJanuary 9, 2018 4:26 pm at 4:26 pm #1446653
Thanks!January 10, 2018 8:58 am at 8:58 am #1446846
My problem with the “story” is that it is not meant to be a story. Medrashim are not meant to be read over like some fantasy fairy tale that are entertaining. Medrashim like the one described above are hard to understand based on our rational way of life as it currently exists. To me, the concept of a sheid pulling out a 2-headed person from some nether world calls out “explain me”. I wonder- is it meant to be literal? If not, what does it symbolize? If it is literal, why was it important for chazal to pass on this event to future generations- What is it supposed to be teaching us? What do the meforshim say on it?
I would love to hear more on this, not just the details of the “story”.January 10, 2018 8:59 am at 8:59 am #1446850
Joseph, thank you, I really appreciate your good wishes! IY”H one day soon we should be able to join and celebrate all our smachot together with all of klal Yisrael!January 10, 2018 11:51 am at 11:51 am #1447022
@wtp of course there’s layers of meaning to anything in Torah, but if practical halacha came into play, that means it also happened literally hence my question.January 10, 2018 11:51 am at 11:51 am #1447028
Winnie, why are things that defy rationality that Chazal relate to us deemed a problem for you? Do you have the same problem when you hear the story of the ten makkos or the splitting of the sea or the creation of a golem or Chazal bringing the dead back to life?January 10, 2018 3:16 pm at 3:16 pm #1447188
To clarify: I didn’t meant to say it was a problem in of itself, i said it is a problem when it is treated as a story devoid of its real meaning. My problem isn’t in believing in the concept of a golem or techiyas hameisim or a sheid, I just want to know and understand what value stories about these very esoteric concepts brings to me. I never understood how people could produce comic strips on the Golem of Prague or Shlomo Hamelech and Ashmadia, which were around when I was younger.
When I learned about the 10 makkos/splitting of the sea, and I’m not referring to kindergarten, I learned about how these events were critical for the formation of klal yisroel, and learned some of the wealth of meforshim on these topics. These are not mere stories. we are not meant to just open a chumash and read the text and say, oh that was a nice story. Kal V’chomer with medrash.
CS, can you explain what you mean by practical halacha coming to play? Are you referring to the fact that they brought a shaila to Shlomo about the inheritance? I don’t follow the logic of why it must mean that it took place literally. Couldn’t that also be part of the mashal? Are we paskening halacha based on this medrash?January 10, 2018 3:43 pm at 3:43 pm #1447223
Sure . I learned one of the four ways you know if a medrash also happened on a physical level is if there is halacha involved- that would show it happened on the physical plane.
Any insights you know on this story would of course be most welcome – my point here was researching extraterrestrial life from a Torah viewpoint.January 11, 2018 6:48 am at 6:48 am #1447432
As to the oddity of the story, first of all, this is not in Gemara or even Medrash Rabbah. So, if you have a hard time with it ignore it. There are other weird stuff about Shlomo Hamelech out there which, given the obsession of other nations about Shlomo Hamelech, I assume there are stories that originate from without.
This is what happened with the famous story of the two brothers trying to lighten the load of the other in the middle of the night, on the spot of the future Bayt al-Maqdis. It appears to be an Arabic story that made its way in a couple of centuries ago.
However, being that Tosafos mentions it, I’ll regard it as legitimate.
Now, a Sheid is not completely a physical being. They drive physical things and are basically related to the material world, but they aren’t actually composed of matter. Perhaps it can be said that just like our soul is manifest in a body, their personality is manifest in motion, changes, and action. Therefore, the whole story about the capture of Ashmedai should be read in this light. Shlomo Hamelech knew how to capture this non-physical being to be able to utilize it’s resources. To the outside observer, there was nothing to see other than amazing success.
In this story too, this strange guy showed up from nowhere, or perhaps he was born to a local family this way (which would explain the marrying and application of Jewish law) and the Medrash is informing us that this was Ashmedai’s doing. He pulled up this form of human from other worlds and applied it here.January 11, 2018 6:50 am at 6:50 am #1447429
There isn’t an actual Halacha derived. It mentions a Psak in the story. That is not the same thing.
For example, the Gemara discusses distances on earth in relation to the Zmanim. We know they meant it in the full meaning of the word since they are discussing practical ramifications. However, in this case, Chazal hadn’t derived anything practical from the story.
In fact, we don’t ‘Pasken‘ like any of Shlomo Hamelech’s trick Psakim. We can’t use motherly love, as proof of parenthood, in a Beis Din. Shlomo Hamelech saw the whole situation, it might have included Ruach Hakodesh, and being an undecidable case it might have allowed for Shuda deDayne—assumption of the judge.January 11, 2018 12:14 pm at 12:14 pm #1447573
Avram in MDParticipant
Anyway I’m curious where is Tevel today? Any sources address this?
According to Google Maps, it’s in southwestern Hungary, in Tolna County.January 11, 2018 2:09 pm at 2:09 pm #1447611
“In fact, we don’t ‘Pasken‘ like any of Shlomo Hamelech’s trick Psakim. ”
A melech doesnt have to decide a case based on accepted klalei hapesak.
Similarly when Dovid was asked what he would do with someone who stole a poor mans only sheep, his reply was not. Easy he has to pay back 4 times.
(I dont have a source of this off hand, but Rabbi Reisman often mentions it when discussing why we refer to Hashem as “melech” so much yomim noraim time, he explains its becasue a melech can take extraneous things (like motherly love or the fact that it was the only sheep) while a ordinary judge can not, we are asking Hashem to have rachmanus on us that we may not deserve if strictly judged al pi din))January 11, 2018 4:53 pm at 4:53 pm #1447666
Ubiquitin, yes the Rambam says that a king has the right to create laws on top of the Torah, for the sake of society. And he may create his own punishments as well. In fact, even Beis Din can punish more severely than what is prescribed in the Torah if they see that the times call for it.
However, deciding between two people who is the rightful owner is different.January 11, 2018 4:53 pm at 4:53 pm #1447661
Regarding the the “two headed son” …
It is mentioned in Tosfos Menachos 37a או קום גלי
מי שיש לו שני ראשים באיזה מהן מניח תפילין א”ל או קום גלי או קבל עלך שמתא
בעולם הזה ליכא – אבל יש במדרש אשמדאי הוציא מתחת קרקע אדם א’ שיש לו שני ראשים לפני שלמה המלך ונשא אשה והוליד בנים כיוצא בו בשני ראשים וכיוצא באשתו בראש אחד וכשבאו לחלוק בנכסי אביהם מי שיש לו שני ראשים שאל שני חלקים ובאו לדין לפני שלמה . מ”ר:
However see Reposnsa Shvus Yaakov (link below) Ch 4 for he paskens that it is as two bodies, see all the differences in Halcaha (it seems like a case of Siamese twins).January 12, 2018 7:32 am at 7:32 am #1448529
See the last three lines or so
This also makes sense with the midrash, which does not say mefurash that they live in the centre of the earthJanuary 12, 2018 7:34 am at 7:34 am #1448528
The Zohar this weeks parsha makes a drasha that all lands other than eretz yisroel are called Tevel. Perhaps that’s pshat in the midrash. Ashmedai brought a man from the other side of the world (hence, sun shining etc) and couldn’t put him back because of מעלין בקודש ואין מורידיםJanuary 12, 2018 8:55 am at 8:55 am #1448566
Btw I just realized Tevel is also mentioned in kapitl 34January 12, 2018 8:56 am at 8:56 am #1448565
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