Why are some Jews against Israel?

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  • #596807

    Why are some religious Jews against Israel? Every second you are living in israel is a mitzvah or every 4 AMOT you take is a mitzvah in israel, isnt it? So why are some religious groups of Jews against Israel? I dont understand the whole concept, anyone care to explain clearly what they are against?

  • #913133

    tobg
    Member

    Their against the non religious government and the fact that innocent Jewish people have to die defending the country.

  • #913134

    no one is aagainst Israel. we love Israel.

    that is why we are against the atheist, anti-Torah, anti Hashem political leaders of the government (in general, some are respectable Jews). Those who push for the murdering of babies, the celebration of abominations in parades in the midst of Holy Yerushalaim, eating pork, and the forced mixing of men and girls in the army. Those who most fervent wish is to be accepted by the nations of the world, and who are ashamed to be Jewish, and would like nothing better than to rid Israel of all traces of Religion, leaving “culture” alone.

  • #913135

    MDG
    Participant

    Actually, it could be called an anti-religious gov’t.

  • #913136

    TikkunHatzot
    Member

    No one is against Israel. They are against the State of Israel.

    It’s not so much a “concept” as it is history.

    You see, the religious Jews have always been coming to Israel little-by-little for the past 2,000 years. They were not allowed to come in a massive “wall” of immigration for fear that it would upset those that lived in the land (I can give you sources for this ruling, but I have to look them up. Can anyone post them if you know where to find it off the top of your head? Thanks)

    However, (and I’m leaving out much history that got up to this point) Theodor Herzl, an non-religious & misguided Jew (he wasn’t necessarily a bad person, he was just a little misguided in his earlier years) decided to bring about a massive wall of secular Jewish immigrants to Israel.

    The problem with that massive wall was that it fueled much hatred from the “Palestinians” (truth be told, they hated us before it). And a lot of the issues that Israel is experiencing now with the Palestinians is because of this.

    The history is pretty complex, but it actually goes back a lot further than 1948. Most of the history also began in Europe.

    Either way, the early rabbis were opposed to the massive immigration, since they knew it would cause these same issues. However, after the rabbis saw they had no control, they decided to push for the immigration.

    This is just skimming the surface. I studied if for about 15 hours a week for 5 months & had access to a library full of books written by both sides (the secular side & the religious side) & I can tell you that this subject is very enormous.

  • #913137

    TikkunHatzot
    Member

    BTW, if you choose to study this subject, I think that one of Rabbi Berel Wein’s big books has an overview of it that will explain what you need to know.

    However, if you are adventerous & decide to get more in depth, then it will become MUCH clearer as to why certain groups act certain ways to other groups….but be prepared, some of it is hard to swallow & it’s going to make you ask a BUNCH more questions. B”H, I had access to a rabbi & 2 secular professors that were very knowledgeable in this matter. But it still hurt.

  • #913138

    m in Israel
    Member

    This is a huge complex topic that I’m not going to address in this forum. However just to clarify the misconception in your question: no one is against Eretz Yisroel or denies the fact that there are many Mizvos involved in both living and being here. Many do have objections to the State of Israel, and do not necessarily view it as a positive development in Jewish history. Some small groups have hashkafic/ halachic objections to moving to Eretz Yisroel before Yemos Hamashiach.

    Many of the groups in Eretz Yisroel with the strongest objections to the State, who take no money from the state, do not participate in elections, etc., are also among the most ardent lovers of the land. Members of many of these groups will not leave Eretz Yisroel for any reason, even missing simchos of relatives, etc., and even avoiding traveling to areas that are “safek Eretz Yisroel”, like Acco or Eilat. Many in these Yerushalmi communities are descendents of those who came to Eretz Yisroel in the period of the “Yishuv Hayashan”, well before the influx of secular Zionists in the WW II era, and before the declaration of the state.

  • #913139

    coffee addict
    Participant

    Actually, it could be called an anti-religious gov’t.

    with shas and UTJ in it?

  • #913140

    i guess the State of Israel has its Pros and Cons, Religious jews can practice freely.

    I remember a few years ago in Manhattan there was an anti israel rally by many Orthodox Jews, i thought it was a big Chillul Hashem. We shouldn’t be showing our negativity toward the state where the rest of the world thinks that Israel is the Jews homeland and that the Jews are bashing it. I know it was a big Misconseption but thats what it looks like.

  • #913141

    coffee addict
    Participant

    I remember a few years ago in Manhattan there was an anti israel rally by many Orthodox Jews, i thought it was a big Chillul Hashem.

    were they part of Neturei Karta?

  • #913142

    im not sure.

  • #913143

    netazar
    Member

    Mr. 80: What is that all about? You’re against the State of Israel because they WHAT????? “push for the murdering of babies” ??? This has to be some anti-semitic blood libel I haven’t yet heard of.

    Please explain

  • #913144

    m in Israel
    Member

    lovebeingjewish —

    Most, if not all, of the mainstream Orthodox gedolim, even among the most extreme “yeshivish” and “chassidish” elements do not condone anti-Israel rallies in the U.S. There are always crazy individuals looking for excitement, both in the U.S. and in Israel, who don’t have the backing of any gedolim. I agree that it is a Chillul Hashem.

    The current state of affairs in Israel however, is also unfortunately a tremendous Chillul Hashem. The primary Halachic definition of Chillul Hashem is the knowing desecration of Mitzvos by Jews. This occurs frequently in Israel, where identifying Jews who know about Shabbos, Kashrus, etc. nonetheless violate these Mitzvos, often in public.

    Religious Jews can practice freely in many countries throughout the world, and were able to practice their religion freely in Eretz Yisroel in many periods of history before the establishment of the State of Israel — that really has nothing to do with the issue.

    It is a tremendous zchus to live here, and I appreciate the role of the Israeli government and IDF in enabling us to do so al pi derech hatevah. However what we are truly waiting for is the geulah shelaima, and the true fulfillment of the nevuah of “vishavu banim ligvulam” and a “yerushalahim HABINUYA”

  • #913145

    abortion

  • #913146

    Dave Hirsch
    Participant

    I think that the question should be revised to:

    Why is Israel against the Jews?

  • #913147

    m in Israel
    Member

    lovebeingjewish —

    As you seem to truly be machshiv the tremendous mitzva of yishuv eretz yisroel, as well as the other mitzvos you can do only here, why aren’t you living here yet? (Is seems from your other posts that you live in NY, although perhaps I’m wrong)

  • #913148

    i agree M in Israel. i appreciate the fact that we have a secure place in which Jews can identify with and feel at home. but Of course we are waiting the ultimate redemption and will never be “HOME” until Mashiach comes.

    what really got me upset though is too see these groups publicly burning the Israeli flag and even more so in front of the Ponevich yeshiva. I think this is a huge Chillul Hashem.

  • #913149

    TikkunHatzot
    Member

    “what really got me upset though is too see these groups publicly burning the Israeli flag and even more so in front of the Ponevich yeshiva.”

    lovebeingjewish- Yes, that can be upsetting to see pictures of someone buring their states flag.

    But you also have to remember, it’s much more complex than what we see in that photo & read in that article.

  • #913150

    HAKOL TOV
    Member

    they’re not against Israel! they are against the “medina” which mocks chassidus and the chareidim!!

  • #913151

    i know but they should keep their opinions to themselves! by publicize it and risk a hillul hashem, i understand they are against the state. I dont think Hashem is looking down and approving this behavior.

  • #913153

    charliehall
    Member

    “Why is Israel against the Jews? “

    Israel funds more Torah scholars than any country in history. And its IDF protects even the anti-Zionist Jews, even the ones who cavort with rashaim like Ahmadinejad. These facts alone should be sufficient for us to dump this anti-Israel rhetoric. You don’t have to be a Zionist to at least have some gratitude!

  • #913154

    charliehall
    Member

    ‘they are against the “medina” which mocks chassidus and the chareidim’

    Uh, two charedi parties are part of the government of the ‘medina’.

  • #913155

    charliehall
    Member

    ” were able to practice their religion freely in Eretz Yisroel in many periods of history”

    Not well known is that during the period 1915-1917, the Ottoman authorities under Djemal Pasha tried to forcibly expel all Jews from Eretz Yisrael. Had they won the war, they probably would have done to Jews what they had done to Armenians.

    Just imagine Eretz Yisrael under Hamas rule. The only thing that really prevents that is the government of Medinat Yisarel.

  • #913158

    m in Israel
    Member

    Charliehall — Last I checked the Central Powers lost WW I to the Allies, so I’m not sure what that fact regarding the Ottoman Empire has to do with the creation of Medinat Yisroel over 30 years later (and with another world war in between that further altered the political landscape). Throughout the cycle of history much larger Jewish populations were expelled from virtually every country in Europe at some point or another. And in recent history the only place where Jews were forcibly expelled from their homes was in Gush Katif, under the rule of Medinat Yisroel, unfortunately.

    In general I don’t really think “what ifs” regarding history are too valid — there are too many factors. But once you start with what “probably” would have happened, a person can theoretically come up with many other scenarios. Perhaps had the early Zionists not forced the hand of the British empire through their armed resistance, Israel would currently be under British rule like Gibraltar. Perhaps Israel would have remained under some sort of Arabic rule that allowed freedom of religion for the Jews living there, as there was in most of the Arab world before the 1940’s (including Iran and Syria, whose large Jewish communities experienced tremendous hardship after the formation of Medinat Yisroel).

    I am not trying to discuss the core issue of why people have problems with Zionism and the modern state of Israel. I am simply pointing out that many of these presumptions are not necessarily true.

    Similarly, I strongly disagree that the “only thing” preventing Hamas rule over Israel is Medinat Yisroel. The “only thing” preventing Hamas rule over Israel is Hashem’s protection. There is no reason to assume that had Israel never been formed, Hamas like groups would be in control, and even with the State of Israel the situation right now is pretty precarious, especially now with this “unity” deal.

    As someone who actually lives here, I have appreciation for the Israeli government in a similar way that I had appreciation for the U.S. government when I lived there. A democratic and functioning government provides the derech hatevah security and law and order that allows me to be free to live the life I believ in , and have a good quality of life in Artzeinu Hakadosh. I pay my taxes, follow the laws, and express appreciation whenever I meet anyone serving our country (as I did in the US). And I certainly daven for the safety of the young Jews putting their lives on the line to save others. But that does not mean I agree with those who view the formation of a Jewish state here in Israel as the beginning of any sort of geulah, nor do I believe this scenario is what we have been davening for over the past centuries. I even believe that many aspects of what goes on here today may be worse when done under a Jewish government.

    One can have serious Hashkafic problems with the Zionist belief system, and object to it, without being accused of “anti-Zionist” rhetoric and lack of hakaras hatov.

  • #913159

    i appreciate the fact that we have a secure place in which Jews can identify with and feel at home.

    I don’t know whether to laugh or to cry. A secure place? Tell that to the Fogel orphans. Tell that to the Gush Katif refugees. Jews can identify with? Tell that to anyone, including myself, who has been teased with phrases like “dros kol dos” when we would never hear a peep from anyone for dressing as we do in the US. (Only in the miserable medine would a little pipsqueak of a girl open her mouth to me, a man 3 times her size and three times her age – that is because she was brought up in a medine that stresses midos Sdom).

    Did anyone see the video of an accident in EY where everyone just passed by the victim? I was in “the wrong part” of Crown Heights once and I saw a 100% staged insurance accident. No one just passed by – the none-too-civilized natives of the area called 911 etc etc. (When I saw EMS wasn’t coming I was going to call Hatzoloh until I realized it was staged and the ganovim behind the accident would have sued the Hatzoloh responder too). That’s right – the Sdoimim are less caring than even offspring of 4th generation fatherless homes in Brooklyn.

    Zionism is not Judaism. Like Reform, it is a secular movement that tries to separate Jews from Jewish values – on Purim I sing Avremel’s “bayshanim, rachmanim, gomlei chasodim” with the words “ganavim, meratzchim vesochrei samim – elu, elu, elu hasimanim, shel ha medina hamasricha” – that is because living in Eastern Europe, I see how the ganavim, meratzchim and sochrei samim from EY have infiltrated the drug and pritzus trade in Hungary, Romania, Czech Republic etc and how this causes people to despise local Jews as well.

    Who are those thieves, murderers and drug dealers? Some may be descendants of the Chida, the Ohr haChaim, the Rambam – but thanks to the forced secularization of EY, their parents ended up as despised “frenkim” and “Marokai Sakin” in the slums of Tel Aviv and the development towns of the Negev. Their children were alienated from society and turned their ambition to crime inside and now, more and more outside, the medine.

    In fact “Felix the Butcher” (of not very blessed memory) the founder of the Aboutboul crime family of Netanya and Prague EMIGRATED from France to EY because in France (where the name Aboutboul shows up in the medical listings and not the crime blotters) they did not fit in with the largely educated and successful Jewish community. In EY, someone managed to get him buried near the kever of the Sanz-Klausenberger Rebbe ZYA after he was dispatched by one of his competitors! (no fault of Sanz – I suspect a bribe and a threat was involved and Sanz doesn’t control the beis hachaim).

    Burning a flag in public is dumb and just a way for some marginals to get attention. However, the state is practically a rodef as it is now – it jeopardizes the physical and spiritual lives of Jews inside and outside its borders. The question is whether it can be salvaged by anyone except Moshiach. I think not. And if dismantlement is forced upon it by the powers to which it kowtows, I won’t cry because I’ll be too busy helping refugees re-establish themselves elsewhere.

  • #913160

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Rav Kook was a charedi jew and a Zionist and one of the greatest leaders we have ever had

  • #913161

    anon1m0us
    Participant

    600kilobear returns: What is funny how people like you idolize our history of the Bais Hamikdash when the same “Rodaf” state was in existence. People like you don’t realize that during the First & Second Bais Hamikdash, and even during the times of shoftim the “medina” was not religious. There were very few and far in between having frum Kings! The reason why the 10 shavotim were expelled was because Malchai Yehudha called on Sancharav to assist them during a civil war between the Jews! The same occured during the second bais hamkidah when there was a civil war between the chashmonaim brothers and called in Rome to settle the dispute.

    I am sure if you lived in the times of the chorban you would have cheered on the Persians and Romans in their conquest of E.Y. As the gemrah said, the people in those times were violated Avoda Zorah, shfichas domim and geloa aroyas!

  • #913162

    twisted
    Member

    M In Israel: Before Gush Katif was Yamit, and before Yamit was Yerushalim old city. It has come to light that the reinforcents to the fighters of the Rova did not arrive, because Ben Gurion and his cabal did not want to keep the old city and it’s “problems”.

    To give Rav Kook’s shita a plug, he defined the Medina as a Keli, which could be filled with either tumah or tahara. From his writings and his works, you know he was not content to leave it in the hands of the seculars. He wrote that love of the land without love of Torah would ultimately turn to hatted for the land and its lovers. Hacham adif minavi, and it is incumbent on us to try to fill the keli with the right stuff.

  • #913163

    Umm..the Beis haMikdosh was DESTROYED both times BECAUSE of our AVEIROIS! We cry every year on 9 Av about that, last time I checked. We only glorify the presence of the Beis haMikdosh itself, not the times of old. Same as our admiration for the Jewish life of pre-Haskalah times – WITHOUT ever wanting to see oppression again.

    And yes, if any foreign power were to take over EY and allow for freedom of worship and enforce safety for worshippers at all mekoimos hakedoishim, I would support them. The invaders did not allow us to worship freely – that is why they were reshoim. We never behaved according to Torah and therefore the land kept vomiting us out. Even now with the boom in EY, emigration exceeds immigration.

    Rav Kook was a misguided man who even himself said about Aguda versus the frei: “With (Aguda) I have a disagreement about one mitzvah – with (the frei) I have a disagreement about 612.” He was far from a great leader (and not respected as a leader at all by those who kept Torah uMitzvos – he was a rav mi-taam appointed by the British) his ideology did not hold water the moment the first scissor snipped off the first “simonim” from the first boy who came from Teiman to EY. His influence on the medina is now nil – after Gaza and the Yigal Amir affair religious Zionism went downhill. Most “religous Zionists” live in the settlements of Teaneck, Woodmere, the Upper West Side and Kew Gardens Hills.

  • #913164

    I don’t have any more time today but here are just a very few examples of how Jewish the medine is:

    The national anthem of the medine was written by an assimilated Czech Jewish composer – and its words were written by a poet who died in New York City of alcohol abuse. Yerushalayim shel Zahav – music shamelessly lifted from Basque folk song – not admitted to until composer was on her deathbed.

    The national food of the medine is falafel – Arab origin.

    (Runners-up; hummous – Arab origin – I support the Lebanese attempt to delegitimize EY hummous because it has no Jewish roots and therefore should remain Arab and packaged EY hummous is garbage anyway; shawarma – Arab origin possibly from Mongols).

    The national pastime of the medine is watching soccer on Shabbos. Enough said.

    The music of the medine? What a joke! Third rate old international pop, poor imitations of Greek, Arabic and other Mediterranean pop from the 50’s to the 70’s. Even the “frum” music coming out of there (not chas vesholom the niggunim of ehrliche baalei menagen like Reb Yirmiye Damen and Reb Chaim Banet but the frum pop) is just pop with somewhat better words – this I understand because it helps to reach people who listen to cheap secular pop.

    The only remotely Jewish part of the culture of the medine is Ivrit. However, it is a desecration of lashon hakodesh, full of borrowed words, purposely recast words and of course nivul peh. Now, thanks to the Internet I don’t need it to speak to a Jew from say, Brazil, because he speaks English.

  • #913167

    Shticky Guy
    Member

    Why are some Jews against Israel?

    Why is Israel against the Jews

    These 2 questions should be reworded as follows: Why are religious and irreligious Jews anywhere in the world always fighting against each other and putting each other down? It is a real shame that this happens. Yes, torah Jews wish to ensure that they are not influenced chas vshalom by the irreligious who in turn think that we live in the dark ages and should stop imposing our old fashioned way of life upon them. But it still sad that there is such animosity and hatred between 2 camps of Yidden, yes they are Yidden, and we cant all live our separate lives with less antagonism.

  • #913168

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Does it matter where the stuff came from

    The Standard Jew Food today is Pizza and Chinese, You judge a jewish neighborhood by the number of Pizza Shops and Chinese takeouts. I dont think they were eating Pizza and Chinese in the Shtel.

    The Standard Chasidic garb is actually Polish Aristicracy dress.

    The Melody to Maoz Tsur is Germanic Church music.

    Yiddish is a germanic language. More like German than Hebrew.

    Does it matter what the source is, what matters is what it is used today

  • #913169

    In the old days, it was like the European type kehilla where I now live – one kehilla, the rov leading with non-frum support, a few of the more frum types feeling more comfortable among themselves in a corner of the shul but still very much a part of the community and looked up to rather than down upon, a few free-thinkers leaving altogether but still coming back to visit – one set of rules based on Torah – but out of shul you do what you want.

    In EY it is the baryonim and sicarii running the show, a few frum politicians ranging from ehrlich to farkoift there for window-dressing, and if you’re frum it’s Dros Kol Dos for you.

    Therefore, the kanoim are strengthened because they need to fight back – they don’t do it right and end up causing more machloikes. Those who want to bring up the standards end up trying to keep afloat in the mud and instead sink themselves (the failure of religious Zionism, the nauseating sight of seeing a Lubavitcher lighting the torch against the Rebbe’s clearly stated past wishes and saying something assinine on top of that, the Shas corruption scandals etc).

    Olam hafuch ani roeh. I’d prefer Moshiach to make things right, but if there is an interim step in which the UN forces the medine into a corner, I am prepared to volunteer to help the refugees.

  • #913170

    Yawn. No one but Chassidim wear that dress today. It has become Jewish precisely because everyone else discarded it. I don’t even know when the pritzim stopped wearing it but it was well before the time of the Communist revolution – and you had Jews who were moiser nefesh to dress that way after the Communists took over and it was a good way to end up in a Gulag uniform.

    Yiddish was never standardized. You don’t need one word of Yiddish to understand the Lubavitcher Rebbe if you understand loshon hakoidesh because he turns roots in laha”k into Yiddish words (not uncommon among my friends who are from EY and speak Yiddish) – and an average yeshivish speaker probably can understand (lehavdil) Lipa’s songs except for a few words he has to ask his friend to ask his baabe. The real non-Jewish Yiddish was the shund from the Bund who purposely replaced laha”k with Slavic words.

    When you go to NY and look for hummous and falafel, even as far back as 1984, 50% chance you are going to find it in an Arab grocery or restaurant (or in a health food place).

    Maoz Tzur was uplifted (not that I sing it myself – to me that tune is a part of the misbegotten secular Jewish culture of my youth – I don’t sing very well so I don’t care to sing anything in public but if I listen to Chanuka songs I have albums from R Damen/Belz and R’ Banet/ Seret-Vizhnitz with parts of Maoz Tzur).

    The food was not uplifted, except for the 10% of it or so that is sold to people who make brochos on it. And the problem is that this non-Jewish food is a symbol of the non-Jewishness and the new “Israeli” identity of the medine. Chinese food is (mock) Chinese in Y-m as it is in Flatbush and in Paris and when our restaurant here in Ukraine decides to feature it. We know it isn’t ours – but we eat it and make a brocho on it so it is. It’s not a symbol of anything – only challah is out of anything we eat during the year. Falafel, which comes from the pere odom’s descendants, is now “Israeli”. Why couldn’t the oisvorf Zionists hollow out a piece of challah and fill it with salad? Actually tastes good and just as convenient as an Arab pita (which actually may have come from ancient Judea but I think that’s a false theory).

    I judge a Jewish neighborhood by the covered heads (male and female), the sforim shops and store names like “Refuah Pharmacy” (actually it’s Rafieh spelled just like that because it’s on Lee Ave in Williamsburgh!) and “Rechev Car Service”. I don’t remember if there is a Chinese restaurant in Syrian Flatbush (where they’d be the first ones to tell you they’re eating what their Arab neighbors ate) – there is a pizza shop.

  • #913171

    m in Israel
    Member

    600kilobear — As is clear from my previous posts I am in no way a Zionist. However some of your posts are over the top, in my opinion. It is absolutely true that the current “medina” is very secular, but your implication that the culture is not primarily Jewish is not accurate. In fact one of the main redeeming factors of the state of Israel as a “Jewish state” is the fact that even the secular Jews here are much closer to Torah and Mitzvos then in other places, partly as a result of the “Jewish” culture, much of which is due to the strong fighting done by the Yishuv Hayashan and its leaders in the early years.

    Numerous studies have shown that the rate of non-religious Jews in Israel who fast on Yom Kippur, have a Pesach Seder, and light Shabbos candles far exceed the rates in the US. A secular Jew in Israel is more likely to keep some sort of Kosher, to avoid Chometz on Pesach, to celebrate Purim, and even to shake lulav and esrog. All of these activities may be “cultural” rather than completely religious, but obviously the Mitzvos have value, and these Jews are that much closer to eventually understanding their meaning.

    Unfortunately time is chipping away at much of the status quo that was in favor of Yiddishkeit, but there still exists much to be thankful for. Shabbos is recognized (although this is an area that has gotten much worse in the past few decades), and one must go out of his way to find real treif food. I recently had to be in a mall and commented to my husband that despite the fact that 80% of the people around did not seem religious, all of the restaurants in the “food court” — about 12 — had some sort of Kahrus certificate. When taking a taxi a few weeks before Pesach, the clearly Chiloni driver began to tell me about how his Pesach cleaning was going — and he didn’t meant spring cleaning! He was discussing scrubbing down his oven and fridge to remove Chometz.

    Again, this is a complex topic, and the bottom line is that I think we can all agree that the best solution to this discussion would be the coming of Moshiach Tzidkeinu and the geulah!

  • #913172

    It is very easy to find treyf even a stone’s throw (no pun intended) from Mea Shearim. There always was a Mizra store off of King George – but now thanks to Tuv Taam, which showed amazing sales during Pesach, and the Russian “delis” you don’t have to go far to find treyf in EY. I had to go very far to find kosher the last time I was on now-sleazy Dizengoff st in Tel Aviv thanks to all the Russian delis.

    Shaking a lulav is nothing – we at Chabad are so good at mivtzoim now (and our numbers of young people with time to do this on chol hamoed have grown so) that we probably inadvertently have Russian non-Jews shaking lulavim on the streets along with their Jewish friends (one more reason to condemn the medine – you no longer even know who is a Jew)! I’d like to know how many buy a lulav and esrog, which shows commitment.

    And remember – lies, ***n lies and statistics. Having given my age as 92 on a survey when I was barely 20, and given that yes, some Jews are embarrassed to admit that they do eat on YK because they know it’s wrong, I suspect that the survey is not accurate.

  • #913173

    To give Rav Kook’s shita a plug, he defined the Medina as a Keli, which could be filled with either tumah or tahara. From his writings and his works, you know he was not content to leave it in the hands of the seculars. He wrote that love of the land without love of Torah would ultimately turn to hatted for the land and its lovers.

    While I don’t accept Rav Kook’s shita, I wonder if what I don’t accept is the soundbite version of it and whether, in reality, he was far closer to Shas or UTJ than to what is left of RZ. Shas actually has the right idea, but unfortunately it is so mired in political corruption scandals and has very bad PR.

  • #913175

    147
    Participant

    zahavasdad

    Rav Kook was a charedi jew and a Zionist and one of the greatest leaders we have ever had

    Satmar has a lot to learn from this Tzaddik Gomur, on a day when they had the audacity to vilify Israel, and El Al Airlines, and patronize Delta, and try to show disdain to a fair & just electoral system in Israel, even fairer than in the USA, where in Israel the popular vote is what counts.

    El Al does wonderful Chassodim for the Jewish people, especially Lo Oleinu, for the deceased always facilitating immediate Kevuroh in Eretz Yisroel. I always fly with El Al, even when they are more expensive than Delta, as I want my hard earned money to go to a Jewish & Shomer Shabbos company.

  • #913176

    ready now
    Participant

    147: You said, above- “try to show disdain to a fair & just electoral system in Israel”.

    Nothing “fair” about it, most should not be voted for.

  • #913177

    Health
    Participant

    147 -“I always fly with El Al, even when they are more expensive than Delta, as I want my hard earned money to go to a Jewish & Shomer Shabbos company.”

    So what you’re saying is – Satmar should be like you – a Farbissena, Farbrenta Tzioni and pay more money just to fly with a Zionist airline.

    In quite a few topics you posted this news – it seems to me that you’re looking for a fight when there is none. Stop being a storm in a tea cup.

    Even if I wasn’t Anti-zionist, why should s/o pay more money to fly with Israel’s official airline, esp. when they don’t believe in the Medina? You might disagree with them when it comes to the Medina, but your posts are illogical when it comes to them flying Delta over El-Al!

  • #913178

    yekke2
    Participant

    what really got me upset though is too see these groups publicly burning the Israeli flag and even more so in front of the Ponevich yeshiva. I think this is a huge Chillul Hashem.

    The Chillul Hashem is that Jews were burning a flag. The fact that is was an Israeli flag is no more of a Chillul Hashem than if it was an American flag or a British flag.

    People must understand that ‘Jews’ and ‘Israel’ are not intertwined and are not synonymous with each other. Nobody is anti-Isreal more than anti-USA; they are against the fact that there is a “Jewish” state. Satmar would be delighted is Israel offered their country up as a state of America. It is the fact that it is shown off as Jewish, the fact that the secular world find it so difficult to distinguish between Jewish and Israeli, that causes such a Chillul Hashem.

    I see no reason why Netanyahu and his government are any worse than Obama. But there is room to discuss whether a ‘Jewish state’ is permitted at all [which is a massive ?????? of ??????, not for us to decide], and if it makes it worse that this ‘Jewish state’ is run by a secular government.

    What I don’t understand is: To those who hold that it is wrong and forbidden to take back the State of Israel by force (and i am not discussing whether this is called a State of Israel or whether this was called Force) – are you not crying over spilled milk? Since 1948, there has been a recognized State of Israel. Now Israel is being surrounded by enemies who seem to be warning us of the imminent arrival of Moshiach ????? ?????? ??? – what do you propose Israel does — lay down weapons and give the reins to Ahmadinejad?

    What do you propose Israel should do to conform with Halocho – is there any solution that is constructive?

  • #913180

    mogold
    Member

    147

    I now always fly United/Continental when I visit EY, because my experience with El Al was as follows:

    1) EL AL is mechalel shabbos

    2) El Al has those nasty secular Israeli personnel who hate chareidi Jews

    2) El Al rarely if ever accommodates a minyan

    United/ Continental goes out of the way to accomodate a minyan if possible, & show much more respect to chareidi passengers

    Satmar shows disdain to a fair & just electoral system.

  • #913181

    nem621
    Member

    I agree with the state of israel

    although i wish that they didn’t accept homosexuality like they do and i wished many things would change we still can’t have a real beis din were we can force other jews to keep the torah. we can try kiruv but no one can have a solution other than that. its the first time since the begging of the exile that we can really have the freedom to worship and set up frum communities.

    sure it is true many other countries allow us to have freedom of worship (like the USA) but do this countries also allow homosexuality and abortion? most of them do. and according to the rambam only mitzvot done in E”Y count, so you tell me if it is the same to be in the states or if it’s not a good thing to have the state of israel.

    obviously we still need geula and israel has its flaws but is still the best place for a jew to be.

  • #913182

    shmendrick
    Member

    “Why are some religious Jews against Israel?” Some Jews come from the Erev Rav that left Egypt together with authentic Bnai Yisroel.

    Over time, the Erev Rav intermingled with klaal yisroel. It became impossible to know who has roots in the Erev Rav and who is from the Shvatim. But on some occasions the Erev Rav rears its ugly head, specifically when it comes to Eretz Yisroel.

    The Erev Rav did not have a chelek in EY (which was divided to shvotim only). Since the Erev Rav have no connection with EY, they try to discourage other yidden from maintaining the love and deep rooted inheritance they have with EY.

    That is how we can tell who is from the Erev Rav – so it is really a brocha, when some Jews are against Israel, their mask is removed and they show us that they are Erev Rav. Only then can we can know who is an impostor in our midst.

  • #913183

    Avi K
    Participant

    1. Rav Kook was a great leader and was recognized as such by all of the gedolim and especiallty Rav Sonnenfeld (who gave him a beracha to be Cohen Gadol), Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach and Rav Eliashiv. Anyone who disparages him is doing an extremely swerious aveira.

    2. Anyone who sees Hashem’s Hand in history knows that the British were at the time willingto help the Geula and the Turks tried to interfere. Later, the sun set on the British Empire.

    3. Both Rav Kook and the Imrei Emet called for frum aliya because they saw what would happen if there was not.The present sttate is due to the fact that frum Jews continue to err.

  • #913184

    yehudayona
    Participant

    mogold — I think the consensus of authorities these days is that you should daven in your seat rather than inconvenience your fellow passengers, daven in an inappropriate place, etc.

  • #913186

    Health
    Participant

    shmendrick/ Zionist -“That is how we can tell who is from the Erev Rav – so it is really a brocha, when some Jews are against Israel, their mask is removed and they show us that they are Erev Rav. Only then can we can know who is an impostor in our midst.”

    Really almost every Godol was against the Medina and we posted their names in the CR in the past. Some Gedolim held once it’s here we join the Gov. to protect Frum interests. So s/o who is pro the Medina and against almost every Godol are the real imposters -namely the Zionists and their supporters.

  • #913187

    mogold
    Member

    yehudayona

    I meant to say that whenever possible, United/Continental has a much better track record of accomodating minyunim then El Al does,going so far as to vacate the galley for 30 minutes for a minyan, yes, I was once in such a situation , where a respectful request was made, and the crew granted this privilige.

    However You are 100% correct, that if this inconveniences the crew or fellow passengers, then you should rather daven in your seat

  • #913188

    shmendrick
    Member

    To Health – do you know that it is very likely that among the Erev Rav there were some who were lamdonim and potential gedolim? Korach himself was also a lamdan and a pikayach (wise man) too and he was considered a “godol” (leading many choshuv yidden)!

  • #913189

    Health
    Participant

    Mogold – Why should it inconvience El-Al? Tower/Metro always used to let the people Daven in the back. It’s only an inconvience if you think that there is no purpose for a bunch of religious Jews to get up in the aisle to pray. If you think praying is a waste of time – then it becomes an inconvience to you, whether you’re the crew or the passengers.

  • #913190

    Health
    Participant

    shmendrick -“To Health – do you know that it is very likely that among the Erev Rav there were some who were lamdonim and potential gedolim? Korach himself was also a lamdan and a pikayach (wise man) too and he was considered a “godol” (leading many choshuv yidden)!”

    Stop making things up just to promote Zionism. Korach wasn’t from the Erev Rav. Look up the Parsha in Chumash. And there is no Proof that the Erev Rav had any big Choshuve people. The Erev Rav was probably like the Freye Tzionim nowadays. Not wanting anything to do with Torah, but just joined up with the Jews to be on the winning side. How come so many kids of these Zionists are running away from Israel and moving to Chutz L’aretz, if Zionism is the Torah way? Just because some “Frum” Jews are Zionists -this doesn’t make the Chazer (Zionism) Kosher!

  • #913191

    Avi K
    Participant

    Health, as I have mosted many times it is simply not true that most gedolim were against the establishment of the Medina. Rav Kook, Rav Tzvi Yehuda, Rav Soloveichik, Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach, Rav Menahem Kasher and many others were in favor. Moreover, the chairman of the Aguda in EY, Rav Y. Y. Levin, signed the Declaration of Independence and was a Minister in the first government (this was before the fiction of a Deputy Minister with no Minister over him). Certainly almost every gadol today supports it or at least does not oppose it.

  • #913192

    ZeesKite
    Participant

    Avi K

    Most certainly not. Most Torah-true gedolim are opposed to it. Some just do not voice their opinion, for they will not be heard anyway. Why waste Yiddishe kochos in vain.

  • #913193

    Zeeskite – ‘no torah-true godol’ = ‘no true Scotsman’… I’m not saying I disagree with you, just your method of arguing.

  • #913194

    shmoel
    Member

    No true godol allows pork at Chanukah parties.

    Woops… Can’t make the above statement. “No true Scotsman.”

  • #913195

    mogold
    Member

    Health

    Nobody ever condoned praying in aisles where its usually a inconvenience, I was commenting about praying in the galley when its not being used, and was stating my experience that the United staff is much more accomodating the El Al.

    The reason ? well El Al has secular Israeli’s on their staff who tend to dislike chareidi Jews much more then a typical United employee, who on average has the American mentality of “live & let live”

  • #913196

    Shmoel – don’t try to be clever, it doesn’t suit you. As you well know, there is a difference between a pasuk mefureshes and your opinion.

  • #913197

    shmoel
    Member

    JMH: Except what ZeesKite said is a matter of fact; just like eating treif.

    No difference between ZK’s so-called Scotsman and mine.

  • #913198

    Health
    Participant

    Avi K -“Health, as I have mosted many times it is simply not true that most gedolim were against the establishment of the Medina.”

    And others have posted that you’re wrong. We even listed all the Gedolim. Repeating something that was posted many times before doesn’t make it true or more true each time around.

  • #913199

    Health
    Participant

    mogold -“Health -Nobody ever condoned praying in aisles where its usually a inconvenience, I was commenting about praying in the galley when its not being used,”

    You are Wrong. Tower/Metro let people Daven in the back in the aisle. It was tolerated, since if a person had to go to the bathroom they could squeeze by. Nowadays the airlines don’t tolerate it because Frum Jews and their practices are second-class citizens. They make enough money off us to try to find someplace where Frum Jews can Daven.

  • #913200

    shmoel
    Member

    Delta allows a minyan shachris in the kitchen area on the international flight.

  • #913201

    It’s not a fact. You have arbitrarily decided on who qualifies for gadlus based on your opinion. There were gedolim who held of creating a medina, and yes Rav Kook was one (regardless of whether or not you agree with some of his more controversial piskei halocho) – Rav Sonnenfeld, despite disagreeing with him on many things, was machshiv him as such, as was R’ Aryeh Levine and R’ Elyashiv. You, however, based on your opinion, have decided that he was not as he had the ‘chutzpa’ to disagree with your received wisdom. This is the no true Scotsman. Treifus is an absolute as it is a pasuk mefureshes, and therefore by definition someone who disagrees cannot qualify for gadlus. Like saying a bird cannot be a fish. But a Scotsman can wear underpants.

    Just so you know, I am not and do not intend to ever be any form of tziyoni. I am also not Satmar, and definitely not Neturei Karta. I may be Agguda, I’m not quite sure. I am trying to present a balanced view of the inyan, that’s all.

  • #913202

    Avi K
    Participant

    The Medina is an established fact and both Rav Kook and the Imrei Emet foresaw that it would be and called for massive religious aliya so that it would be a Tora state. Their call was for the most part not heeded so we have had to travel a longer path. This is continuing (and even worse, there are some who do make aliya but do not at least vote, thus in effect voting for continued secularism). and so we are still on the path. The worst are those who continue to back-bite. They are truly the Erev Rav as they try to prevent people from making aliya.

  • #913203

    Health
    Participant

    just my hapence -“I am trying to present a balanced view of the inyan, that’s all.”

    It’s Not balanced because most Gedolim were against the Medina.

    Acc. to the Torah we always go after the Rov!

  • #913204

    Health
    Participant

    Avi K -“The worst are those who continue to back-bite. They are truly the Erev Rav as they try to prevent people from making aliya.”

    This would include the Satmar Rebbe Zt’l. He held it is better to live in Chutz L’aretz than under the Zionists in Israel.

    Anybody who has the Chutzpa to call the Rebbe – Erev Rav is truly in the Geder of “Kol Hapoisel B’momo Poisel & Mum Sh’bechah Al Tomer L’chaveiro”!

  • #913205

    Avi K
    Participant

    Health,

    1. I am realy tired of this yes they did/no they didn’t argument about the rov. I dispute you.

    2. The Satmar Rebbe in fact admitted that he was a daat yachid but denied that we go according to the rov because there was no meeting or quorum.

    3. In any case, the rov can be wrong.If they are the halacha is reversed and they and those who went according to their pesak bring ????? Rambam Hilchot Shiggot ch. 12).Write down your debt in your notebook.

    4. The Medina has been established. Today nobody outside of the NK quacks is against it.

  • #913206

    Health – I am not saying that I agree with Avi K, I am simply saying that those who claim ‘no torah-true gedolim’ were for the medina are as incorrect as those claiming that all those who oppose it are eirev rav. I’m not saying that we should support the medina or that we should oppose it. Rov has nothing to do with what I’m talking about as I am not talking about reaching any kind of hachro’oh. I am simply trying to balance the discussion by saying there were those for and those against. Anyone who claims other form of otherwise is distorting the truth. I hope that clarifies my position.

  • #913207

    ZeesKite
    Participant

    Avi K

    You seem to be possessed with your two “Rav Kook and the Imrei Emet”, over and over again. “Erev Rav”, too. etc. I think you’re just doing it to call me out.

    OK So here I am. Together with THE VAST MAJORITY of K’lal Yisroel and it’s leaders. Real ones. OK?

    I for one won’t take that your “atchalta dgeula” or whatever is accomplished though a bunch of bareheaded, as an afterthought (first choice was somewhere else). OK? Sure, they were makpid to do it (the chalot) bein hashmashot because ?????? ???? ???? ?????? ????. Sure, with the argeement of “all” of your Rabbis. Conscription of females in the army – at the behest of “All” the gedolim. Abortions, autopsies etc. Sure. All litveshe Gedolim and Chasidishe Rebbes.

    Please.

    Do a little honest homework. A bit of history will suffice. Honest history. Not the propaganda they inoculate. (Rav Weissmandel – Min Hametzar, Rav Miller to name a few, and I haven’t yet mentioned the Satmar Rav)

  • #913208

    Health
    Participant

    Avi K -“Health,

    1. I am realy tired of this yes they did/no they didn’t argument about the rov. I dispute you.”

    And I’m tired of your Zionist propaganda!

    “2. The Satmar Rebbe in fact admitted that he was a daat yachid but denied that we go according to the rov because there was no meeting or quorum.”

    He was only a “Daas Yochid” (which he really isn’t) in ignoring the Medina right now, but not that the Medina is a good thing.

    “3. In any case, the rov can be wrong.If they are the halacha is reversed and they and those who went according to their pesak bring ????? Rambam Hilchot Shiggot ch. 12).Write down your debt in your notebook.”

    And how do you know they are Wrong? Do you have Nevuah? So this is exactly the Din of Rov – when Gedolim/Poskim are arguing and you don’t know who to follow -you go after the Rov!

    “4. The Medina has been established. Today nobody outside of the NK quacks is against it.”

    More Propaganda! Almost all the Gedolim are against it, but the question is what to do about it now. A lot of Gedolim hold we should have Political Parties to try and put some Yiddiskeit into the Medina! There are quite a few like Satmar and Brisk that say have nothing to do with them – Don’t take their money and Don’t vote for anyone!

  • #913209

    Avi K
    Participant

    Healht,

    1. We see that the Medina is established and growing. We have gone from a gray Socialist economy to a robust economic (as well as military) power that attracts international business and professional conferences. Various high-level professional conferences are being held here. The Geula is coming in stages (Yerushalmi Berachot 1:1).There are problems but instead of being part of them be a part of the solution.

    2. An offfical of another religion told Rav Yonatan Eybeschutz that he should go after the rov. He said that that is only when there is a doubt. In any case, I continue to dispute you. Produce the minutes of the session where they voted.

    3. Quite a few? A tiny minority of even the Chareidi community. Participating is acceptance.

  • #913210

    ZeesKite
    Participant

    Another sign of the Propoganda Mission: they keep saying the same things, over and over again.

    FYI, AviK, yes – your ‘Medina’ is established. Nothing to do with our Mashiach. He doesn’t need your bareheaded interference. Doesn’t need your kidnapping of so many Taimanim. Or the systematic attempt to wean the youth from HaShem’s Torah way. He doesn’t even need the ‘one cow in Palestine..’. No, to him European Jewery, even those unable to work for the ‘medina’, is valuable. So maybe these Rabbis you keep trumpeting thought so, K’lal Yisroel, following its’ leaders think otherwise. OK?

    And mind you, participating is NOT acceptance. And you know it. It’s just that you’ve been indoctrinated, you’ve been preprogrammed and nothing of sense will stop you.

    Participating means one has to own up the the situation. There is a medina now. So we gotta play it’s games. No, we wouldn’t have attended the ‘asifa’ erev shabbos minutes to shkia. (or maybe it was afterwards)

  • #913211

    iced
    Member

    Soviet Russia and Nazi Germany were also established and growing for a while. Was obviously Hashem’s will. And Jews participated too. Didn’t mean acceptance.

  • #913212

    Health
    Participant

    ZK & Iced – Thanks for responding for me. I hate repeating the same thing over & over & over & over, etc.

    So why do I? Not to convince Avi K and his like-minded guys, but that they shouldn’t influence others with their Zionist Propaganda!

  • #913213

    nem621
    Member

    i view the state as a non jewish state such as the united states but this state is located in E”Y and it’s the first time in centuries that we have real (don’t tell me true Scotsman we all know that economic sanctions by the ottomans or killings by the crusaders don’t count as freedom) freedom of worship which is why i think we have to defend this state. don’t tell me how it is wrong to live in Israel because its too secular while you live in new york…

  • #913214

    Yserbius123
    Participant

    Just for the record: There is no large group of Chareidim in Israel who <i>do not</i> take money from the government in some form or other. Healthcare, housing, schools, kollel, these are all funded by the Medina in some way or another. Which is why I find the position of those who claim not to take money very confusing.

  • #913215

    ZeesKite
    Participant

    Yes, it is a holy place. I don’t think anyone disagrees with that. If someone is able to live a holy, fulfilling, happy life there, kol hakovod, ashrecha. But sometimes their government gets in the way (to put it mildly) of Shmiras Torah uMitzvhos. If someone is able overcome these issues, he should definitely should live there.

    One must be able to differentiate between Eretz Yisroel and ‘Israel’.

  • #913216

    nem621
    Member

    what i mean is we have to help the state survive while obviously praying for geula and an actual frum state but this secular government is much better than many other options and one can be haredi and attend yeshiva with no problem and the army? well now they are instituting haredi brigades and if some one is capable of learning all day he is allowed to do so (and he should).

  • #913217

    iced
    Member

    Yserbius: Brisk, Satmar, Toldos Aharon and others do not accept any funding from the Israeli government even what they are legally entitled to.

  • #913218

    Health
    Participant

    nem621 -“what i mean is we have to help the state survive while obviously praying for geula and an actual frum state but this secular government is much better than many other options and one can be haredi and attend yeshiva with no problem and the army? well now they are instituting haredi brigades and if some one is capable of learning all day he is allowed to do so (and he should).”

    Your post sounds like you are trying to talk it into yourself.

    “secular government is much better than many other options”

    Who says? Maybe giving the Medina to Turkey would be better for Yiddishkeit.

    “and one can be haredi and attend yeshiva with no problem”

    Really -“no problem”? I think most Frum people consider a Draft -a problem.

    “well now they are instituting haredi brigades”

    And even here you can be Oiver things like Kol Isha.

    Wake up to reality. The Medina is Not conducive to being a Frum Yid.

  • #913220

    HaKatan
    Participant

    The crucial distinction between Eretz Yisrael and, lihavdil elef alfei havdalos, Zionism, should answer most of the “questions”.

    But despite the technology, innovations and Yeshivos, the ideology of Zionism and its communist propaganda is so bankrupt that it’s almost beyond comprehension how rational people still believe in it!

    Just take a look at the news coming out of Israel. It seems every day there is another story that indicates just how mistaken this Zionist egel was and is.

    Today, one can read on YWN that the IDF soldiers cannot defend themselves against these savages but have to run away from them because cameras are rolling and world opinion won’t like the response.

    This is the Zionist answer to the “galut Jew”: to outdo the galus Jew, not to make it better as they dream. The Zionists are prisoners in “their own land”, where their army has to cut and run, the entire country is practically a walled entity with multi-million dollar missile shields and bomb shelters that still don’t provide total protection — and which should not be necessary to begin with — and they have never known a day of peace and fought multiple bloody wars in its rather bloody few decades of existence, not to mention all the terror attacks, ch”V, Hashem Yishmor.

    What normal country builds bomb shelters as a standard feature in its apartment buildings? What country doesn’t defend its own borders and can’t even define them?

    How many thousands of Jews have died for this Egel, some of them quite brutally? How many families destroyed? Was it worth it? Do you believe there is any acceptable amount of blood?

    The Torah says VaChai BaHem, not to sacrifice lives, CH”V, for this egel or for almost anything else. What about the tens of thousands of traumatized Jews? What about the doros and olamos of Jews intentionally shmaded by those reshaim, some of whom are, B”H, returning to Yahadus but many of whom who have not?

    Yet, you intelligent and thinking people still believe in this idolatry and fraud even with 60+ years of history behind you! (And the gedolim all knew this even before 1948, contrary to Zionist propaganda; all agreed the State was and is a disaster, even after 1948. The Satmar Rav was different only in method of action, not in position.)

    As I’ve posted before, if anyone can’t understand how people believed in the Baal and had the chutzpah to attend the show-down between Eliyahu HaNavi and, lihavdil, the Neviei HaBaal, as if there was some thought that the baal might win, then the mass indoctrination and Zionist brainwashing should make it quite clear how this could be. Stop and think how absurd this whole thing was. Eliyahu HaNavi, tells you Hashem is G-d and you actually show up to a mountain to wait and see if he’s right? It’s one thing to worship idols, as Chazal tell us the yetzer hara to do so was enormous. But to actually attend that showdown as if it wasn’t perfectly clear what the truth was and is?

    Back to today, look at how many people believe in this nonsense of nationalism, which is a 19th century relic, and, worse, they have grafted that on to our holy Torah to surpass almost all else in importance. How is this possible?

    The only rational answer seems to be, IMHO, as multiple gedolim have written, this is a magnificently orchestrated maase satan, and he has, unfortunately, fooled a lot of people. What other rational explanation is there for why so many wise and otherwise great people can be so sadly mistaken when it comes to this issue.

  • #913221

    Health
    Participant

    HaKatan – Well Written!

  • #913222

    HaKatan
    Participant

    Health, thank you.

    Chanukah Sameach to all.

  • #913223

    DaMoshe
    Participant

    HaKatan: You list all the things you claim Israel did wrong. The fact that they haven’t had peace isn’t an issue. We’re still in galus, and there won’t be peace. More Jews died in WW2 than in Israel – would you say we shouldn’t have been in Europe either?

    The fact is that Israel watches out for all Jews, all over the world. Just recently, when some Satmar drug smugglers were in prison in Japan, who stepped in to help them? Israel! Israel helped the people who hate them, the Satmar chassidim! Did any Satmar people say, “Hey, Israel might not be that bad!”? Of course not! But Israel didn’t care. They saw Jews who needed help, and they did whatever they could.

    Who rescued the Satmar Rebbe from the Nazis? A Zionist! But of course, the chassidim decided to cover that up, and don’t tell their kids that.

    You should learn a few things from Israel and the Zionists.

  • #913224

    HaKatan
    Participant

    DaMoshe, your response contains ideas that are incorrect. And you say I claim it is a list of things wrong with Zionism. So instead of answering those points to defend Zionism, since you seem to like Zionism, you bring in externalities that don’t dispute that list.

    But since you asked, perhaps let’s add to and/or clarify that list above:

    First, even in galus there are times of relative peace, even if that peace is far from the tranquility of the end-times. There is no requirement to have a disastrous State of Israel to make things inestimably worse, as I wrote above.

    Regardless, the point of mentioning they Israel has not had even one day of peace in 60+ years is that this is an indication of just how wrong their theology is. Their official raison d’etre (which is really a lie, anyways) is to provide a safe haven for Jews. That they have not known a day of peace in 60+ years means very clearly that they were very badly mistaken and that this is a very bald lie. Yet, as I wrote, people still believe this nonsense propaganda.

    As to your other assertions:

    Israel cannot claim it “watches out for all Jews”. It can’t even properly watch over the ones in its “borders”. Besides, even before its formal existence, Zionists turned away Jews from the shores of Eretz Yisrael, fully aware that these Jews would then be returned to be murdered in Europe. Like the Nazis, the Zionists, back then, wanted only the young and strong to come to Palestine, not the “old and infirm” who were, in the Zionist’s words “like dust…shall pass”. Google it and see for yourself.

    As for the Japan saga, those innocent boys were Israeli citizens so Israel had an obligation to them. That doesn’t make them savoir of Jews. Besides, it probably served Israel’s interests here to intervene, as this was an easy way for Israel to propagate this myth you claim, just like a chazir claims to be a kosher animal. As well, see Shlomo HaMelech’s remark “ViHaKesef Yaaneh es haKol”, which is the likely the greatest reason here.

    Even if the Satmar Rebbe may have owed a personal debt of gratitude to Kasztner since he was freed on that train (which Eichmann allowed on condition that Kasztner deceive the rest of Hungarian Jewry), this does not change the halachic and realistic understanding that the State of Israel was and is a disaster. Halacha is non-negotiable, even if someone does you favors.

    It seems you’ve “learned a few things from Israel and the Zionists”, like pulling the wool over your eyes and ignoring reality and history.

  • #913225

    shmendrick
    Member

    I think the greatest godol who supported Zionism and the medina was the Shu”t Mishnas Sochir, author of Eim Habonim Semaycha. About him was said that he was clear in kol hatorah kulah, niglah and nistar, on the level of the GRA. His Shu’t are amazing in bekiyus and charifus in all areas of torah!

  • #913226

    shmendrick
    Member

    I think the greatest godol who supported Zionism and the medina was the Shu”t Mishnas Sochir, author of Eim Habonim Semaycha. About him was said that he was clear in kol hatorah kulah, niglah and nistar, on the level of the GRA. His Shu’t are amazing in bekiyus and charifus in all areas of torah!

    The descendants of the Erev Rav were against hakomas hamedina because they had no chelek b’aretz. To them, shivas Tzion, the return of yidden to Eretz Yisroel is WORSE than Uganda, where they WOULD get a chelek in.

    Some of the descendants went to Yeshiva and became lamdonim. Being a lamdon or a “godol” does not mean he cannot be from the Erev Rav! Nor is it derogatory to assert that a lamdon/godol can be from the Erev Rav. Acher was a lamdon and a godol, so were others who were off the derech! These lamdonim had talmidim and followers, some were swayed by the false shitos of their teachers.

    In turn, they also became communal leaders, rabbonim and gedolim, but they were spreading the learnings they were mekabel fromm the Erev R

  • #913227

    shmendrick
    Member

    I think the greatest godol who supported Zionism and the medina was the Shu”t Mishnas Sochir, author of Eim Habonim Semaycha. About him was said that he was clear in kol hatorah kulah, niglah and nistar, on the level of the GRA. His Shu’t are amazing in bekiyus and charifus in all areas of torah!

    The descendants of the Erev Rav were against hakomas hamedina because they had no chelek b’aretz. To them, shivas Tzion, the return of yidden to Eretz Yisroel is WORSE than Uganda, where they WOULD get a chelek in.

    Some of the descendants went to Yeshiva and became lamdonim. Being a lamdon or a “godol” does not mean he cannot be from the Erev Rav! Nor is it derogatory to assert that a lamdon/godol can be from the Erev Rav. Acher was a lamdon and a godol, so were others who were off the derech! These lamdonim had talmidim and followers, some were swayed by the false shitos of their teachers.

    In turn, these talmidim also became communal leaders, rabbonim and even gedolim and rebbes, but they were spreading the learnings they were mekabel from the Erev Rav!!

  • #913228

    shmendrick
    Member

    I think the greatest godol who supported Zionism and the medina was the Shu”t Mishnas Sochir, author of Eim Habonim Semaycha (which is the “Torah she’biksav” of Religious Zionism). About the Mishnas Sochir was said that he was clear in kol hatorah kulah, niglah and nistar, on the level of the GRA. His Shu’t are amazing in bekiyus and charifus in all areas of torah!

    The descendants of the Erev Rav were against hakomas hamedina because they had no chelek b’aretz. To them, shivas Tzion, the return of yidden to Eretz Yisroel is WORSE than Uganda, where they WOULD get a chelek in.

    Some of the descendants went to Yeshiva and became lamdonim. Being a lamdon or a “godol” does not mean he cannot be from the Erev Rav! Nor is it derogatory to assert that a lamdon/godol can be from the Erev Rav. Acher was a lamdon and a godol, so were others who were off the derech! These lamdonim had talmidim and followers, some were swayed by the false shitos of their teachers.

    In turn, these talmidim also became communal leaders, rabbonim and even gedolim and rebbes, but they were spreading the learnings they were mekabel from the Erev Rav!!

  • #913229

    HaKatan
    Participant

    shmendrick, you are mistaken.

    If you open the sefer to the introduction, you will see his son writes very clearly that his father’s wish for a Jewish entity was not to be considered a validation of any ism, including Zionism.

    I dare not criticize his work, though others far greater than I already have. But the bottom line is that this sefer does not in any way “condone” the idolatry of Zionism.

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