Why are some religious Jews against Israel? Every second you are living in israel is a mitzvah or every 4 AMOT you take is a mitzvah in israel, isnt it? So why are some religious groups of Jews against Israel? I dont understand the whole concept, anyone care to explain clearly what they are against?
Why are some Jews against Israel?(89 posts)
Their against the non religious government and the fact that innocent Jewish people have to die defending the country.
no one is aagainst Israel. we love Israel.
that is why we are against the atheist, anti-Torah, anti Hashem political leaders of the government (in general, some are respectable Jews). Those who push for the murdering of babies, the celebration of abominations in parades in the midst of Holy Yerushalaim, eating pork, and the forced mixing of men and girls in the army. Those who most fervent wish is to be accepted by the nations of the world, and who are ashamed to be Jewish, and would like nothing better than to rid Israel of all traces of Religion, leaving "culture" alone.
Actually, it could be called an anti-religious gov't.
No one is against Israel. They are against the State of Israel.
It's not so much a "concept" as it is history.
You see, the religious Jews have always been coming to Israel little-by-little for the past 2,000 years. They were not allowed to come in a massive "wall" of immigration for fear that it would upset those that lived in the land (I can give you sources for this ruling, but I have to look them up. Can anyone post them if you know where to find it off the top of your head? Thanks)
However, (and I'm leaving out much history that got up to this point) Theodor Herzl, an non-religious & misguided Jew (he wasn't necessarily a bad person, he was just a little misguided in his earlier years) decided to bring about a massive wall of secular Jewish immigrants to Israel.
The problem with that massive wall was that it fueled much hatred from the "Palestinians" (truth be told, they hated us before it). And a lot of the issues that Israel is experiencing now with the Palestinians is because of this.
The history is pretty complex, but it actually goes back a lot further than 1948. Most of the history also began in Europe.
Either way, the early rabbis were opposed to the massive immigration, since they knew it would cause these same issues. However, after the rabbis saw they had no control, they decided to push for the immigration.
This is just skimming the surface. I studied if for about 15 hours a week for 5 months & had access to a library full of books written by both sides (the secular side & the religious side) & I can tell you that this subject is very enormous.
BTW, if you choose to study this subject, I think that one of Rabbi Berel Wein's big books has an overview of it that will explain what you need to know.
However, if you are adventerous & decide to get more in depth, then it will become MUCH clearer as to why certain groups act certain ways to other groups....but be prepared, some of it is hard to swallow & it's going to make you ask a BUNCH more questions. B"H, I had access to a rabbi & 2 secular professors that were very knowledgeable in this matter. But it still hurt.
This is a huge complex topic that I'm not going to address in this forum. However just to clarify the misconception in your question: no one is against Eretz Yisroel or denies the fact that there are many Mizvos involved in both living and being here. Many do have objections to the State of Israel, and do not necessarily view it as a positive development in Jewish history. Some small groups have hashkafic/ halachic objections to moving to Eretz Yisroel before Yemos Hamashiach.
Many of the groups in Eretz Yisroel with the strongest objections to the State, who take no money from the state, do not participate in elections, etc., are also among the most ardent lovers of the land. Members of many of these groups will not leave Eretz Yisroel for any reason, even missing simchos of relatives, etc., and even avoiding traveling to areas that are "safek Eretz Yisroel", like Acco or Eilat. Many in these Yerushalmi communities are descendents of those who came to Eretz Yisroel in the period of the "Yishuv Hayashan", well before the influx of secular Zionists in the WW II era, and before the declaration of the state.
Actually, it could be called an anti-religious gov't.
with shas and UTJ in it?
i guess the State of Israel has its Pros and Cons, Religious jews can practice freely.
I remember a few years ago in Manhattan there was an anti israel rally by many Orthodox Jews, i thought it was a big Chillul Hashem. We shouldn't be showing our negativity toward the state where the rest of the world thinks that Israel is the Jews homeland and that the Jews are bashing it. I know it was a big Misconseption but thats what it looks like.
I remember a few years ago in Manhattan there was an anti israel rally by many Orthodox Jews, i thought it was a big Chillul Hashem.
were they part of Neturei Karta?
im not sure.
Mr. 80: What is that all about? You're against the State of Israel because they WHAT????? "push for the murdering of babies" ??? This has to be some anti-semitic blood libel I haven't yet heard of.
Most, if not all, of the mainstream Orthodox gedolim, even among the most extreme "yeshivish" and "chassidish" elements do not condone anti-Israel rallies in the U.S. There are always crazy individuals looking for excitement, both in the U.S. and in Israel, who don't have the backing of any gedolim. I agree that it is a Chillul Hashem.
The current state of affairs in Israel however, is also unfortunately a tremendous Chillul Hashem. The primary Halachic definition of Chillul Hashem is the knowing desecration of Mitzvos by Jews. This occurs frequently in Israel, where identifying Jews who know about Shabbos, Kashrus, etc. nonetheless violate these Mitzvos, often in public.
Religious Jews can practice freely in many countries throughout the world, and were able to practice their religion freely in Eretz Yisroel in many periods of history before the establishment of the State of Israel -- that really has nothing to do with the issue.
It is a tremendous zchus to live here, and I appreciate the role of the Israeli government and IDF in enabling us to do so al pi derech hatevah. However what we are truly waiting for is the geulah shelaima, and the true fulfillment of the nevuah of "vishavu banim ligvulam" and a "yerushalahim HABINUYA"
I think that the question should be revised to:
Why is Israel against the Jews?
As you seem to truly be machshiv the tremendous mitzva of yishuv eretz yisroel, as well as the other mitzvos you can do only here, why aren't you living here yet? (Is seems from your other posts that you live in NY, although perhaps I'm wrong)
i agree M in Israel. i appreciate the fact that we have a secure place in which Jews can identify with and feel at home. but Of course we are waiting the ultimate redemption and will never be "HOME" until Mashiach comes.
what really got me upset though is too see these groups publicly burning the Israeli flag and even more so in front of the Ponevich yeshiva. I think this is a huge Chillul Hashem.
"what really got me upset though is too see these groups publicly burning the Israeli flag and even more so in front of the Ponevich yeshiva."
lovebeingjewish- Yes, that can be upsetting to see pictures of someone buring their states flag.
But you also have to remember, it's much more complex than what we see in that photo & read in that article.
they're not against Israel! they are against the "medina" which mocks chassidus and the chareidim!!
i know but they should keep their opinions to themselves! by publicize it and risk a hillul hashem, i understand they are against the state. I dont think Hashem is looking down and approving this behavior.
"Why is Israel against the Jews? "
Israel funds more Torah scholars than any country in history. And its IDF protects even the anti-Zionist Jews, even the ones who cavort with rashaim like Ahmadinejad. These facts alone should be sufficient for us to dump this anti-Israel rhetoric. You don't have to be a Zionist to at least have some gratitude!
'they are against the "medina" which mocks chassidus and the chareidim'
Uh, two charedi parties are part of the government of the 'medina'.
" were able to practice their religion freely in Eretz Yisroel in many periods of history"
Not well known is that during the period 1915-1917, the Ottoman authorities under Djemal Pasha tried to forcibly expel all Jews from Eretz Yisrael. Had they won the war, they probably would have done to Jews what they had done to Armenians.
Just imagine Eretz Yisrael under Hamas rule. The only thing that really prevents that is the government of Medinat Yisarel.
Charliehall -- Last I checked the Central Powers lost WW I to the Allies, so I'm not sure what that fact regarding the Ottoman Empire has to do with the creation of Medinat Yisroel over 30 years later (and with another world war in between that further altered the political landscape). Throughout the cycle of history much larger Jewish populations were expelled from virtually every country in Europe at some point or another. And in recent history the only place where Jews were forcibly expelled from their homes was in Gush Katif, under the rule of Medinat Yisroel, unfortunately.
In general I don't really think "what ifs" regarding history are too valid -- there are too many factors. But once you start with what "probably" would have happened, a person can theoretically come up with many other scenarios. Perhaps had the early Zionists not forced the hand of the British empire through their armed resistance, Israel would currently be under British rule like Gibraltar. Perhaps Israel would have remained under some sort of Arabic rule that allowed freedom of religion for the Jews living there, as there was in most of the Arab world before the 1940's (including Iran and Syria, whose large Jewish communities experienced tremendous hardship after the formation of Medinat Yisroel).
I am not trying to discuss the core issue of why people have problems with Zionism and the modern state of Israel. I am simply pointing out that many of these presumptions are not necessarily true.
Similarly, I strongly disagree that the "only thing" preventing Hamas rule over Israel is Medinat Yisroel. The "only thing" preventing Hamas rule over Israel is Hashem's protection. There is no reason to assume that had Israel never been formed, Hamas like groups would be in control, and even with the State of Israel the situation right now is pretty precarious, especially now with this "unity" deal.
As someone who actually lives here, I have appreciation for the Israeli government in a similar way that I had appreciation for the U.S. government when I lived there. A democratic and functioning government provides the derech hatevah security and law and order that allows me to be free to live the life I believ in , and have a good quality of life in Artzeinu Hakadosh. I pay my taxes, follow the laws, and express appreciation whenever I meet anyone serving our country (as I did in the US). And I certainly daven for the safety of the young Jews putting their lives on the line to save others. But that does not mean I agree with those who view the formation of a Jewish state here in Israel as the beginning of any sort of geulah, nor do I believe this scenario is what we have been davening for over the past centuries. I even believe that many aspects of what goes on here today may be worse when done under a Jewish government.
One can have serious Hashkafic problems with the Zionist belief system, and object to it, without being accused of "anti-Zionist" rhetoric and lack of hakaras hatov.
i appreciate the fact that we have a secure place in which Jews can identify with and feel at home.
I don't know whether to laugh or to cry. A secure place? Tell that to the Fogel orphans. Tell that to the Gush Katif refugees. Jews can identify with? Tell that to anyone, including myself, who has been teased with phrases like "dros kol dos" when we would never hear a peep from anyone for dressing as we do in the US. (Only in the miserable medine would a little pipsqueak of a girl open her mouth to me, a man 3 times her size and three times her age - that is because she was brought up in a medine that stresses midos Sdom).
Did anyone see the video of an accident in EY where everyone just passed by the victim? I was in "the wrong part" of Crown Heights once and I saw a 100% staged insurance accident. No one just passed by - the none-too-civilized natives of the area called 911 etc etc. (When I saw EMS wasn't coming I was going to call Hatzoloh until I realized it was staged and the ganovim behind the accident would have sued the Hatzoloh responder too). That's right - the Sdoimim are less caring than even offspring of 4th generation fatherless homes in Brooklyn.
Zionism is not Judaism. Like Reform, it is a secular movement that tries to separate Jews from Jewish values - on Purim I sing Avremel's "bayshanim, rachmanim, gomlei chasodim" with the words "ganavim, meratzchim vesochrei samim - elu, elu, elu hasimanim, shel ha medina hamasricha" - that is because living in Eastern Europe, I see how the ganavim, meratzchim and sochrei samim from EY have infiltrated the drug and pritzus trade in Hungary, Romania, Czech Republic etc and how this causes people to despise local Jews as well.
Who are those thieves, murderers and drug dealers? Some may be descendants of the Chida, the Ohr haChaim, the Rambam - but thanks to the forced secularization of EY, their parents ended up as despised "frenkim" and "Marokai Sakin" in the slums of Tel Aviv and the development towns of the Negev. Their children were alienated from society and turned their ambition to crime inside and now, more and more outside, the medine.
In fact "Felix the Butcher" (of not very blessed memory) the founder of the Aboutboul crime family of Netanya and Prague EMIGRATED from France to EY because in France (where the name Aboutboul shows up in the medical listings and not the crime blotters) they did not fit in with the largely educated and successful Jewish community. In EY, someone managed to get him buried near the kever of the Sanz-Klausenberger Rebbe ZYA after he was dispatched by one of his competitors! (no fault of Sanz - I suspect a bribe and a threat was involved and Sanz doesn't control the beis hachaim).
Burning a flag in public is dumb and just a way for some marginals to get attention. However, the state is practically a rodef as it is now - it jeopardizes the physical and spiritual lives of Jews inside and outside its borders. The question is whether it can be salvaged by anyone except Moshiach. I think not. And if dismantlement is forced upon it by the powers to which it kowtows, I won't cry because I'll be too busy helping refugees re-establish themselves elsewhere.
Rav Kook was a charedi jew and a Zionist and one of the greatest leaders we have ever had
600kilobear returns: What is funny how people like you idolize our history of the Bais Hamikdash when the same "Rodaf" state was in existence. People like you don't realize that during the First & Second Bais Hamikdash, and even during the times of shoftim the "medina" was not religious. There were very few and far in between having frum Kings! The reason why the 10 shavotim were expelled was because Malchai Yehudha called on Sancharav to assist them during a civil war between the Jews! The same occured during the second bais hamkidah when there was a civil war between the chashmonaim brothers and called in Rome to settle the dispute.
I am sure if you lived in the times of the chorban you would have cheered on the Persians and Romans in their conquest of E.Y. As the gemrah said, the people in those times were violated Avoda Zorah, shfichas domim and geloa aroyas!
M In Israel: Before Gush Katif was Yamit, and before Yamit was Yerushalim old city. It has come to light that the reinforcents to the fighters of the Rova did not arrive, because Ben Gurion and his cabal did not want to keep the old city and it's "problems".
To give Rav Kook's shita a plug, he defined the Medina as a Keli, which could be filled with either tumah or tahara. From his writings and his works, you know he was not content to leave it in the hands of the seculars. He wrote that love of the land without love of Torah would ultimately turn to hatted for the land and its lovers. Hacham adif minavi, and it is incumbent on us to try to fill the keli with the right stuff.
Umm..the Beis haMikdosh was DESTROYED both times BECAUSE of our AVEIROIS! We cry every year on 9 Av about that, last time I checked. We only glorify the presence of the Beis haMikdosh itself, not the times of old. Same as our admiration for the Jewish life of pre-Haskalah times - WITHOUT ever wanting to see oppression again.
And yes, if any foreign power were to take over EY and allow for freedom of worship and enforce safety for worshippers at all mekoimos hakedoishim, I would support them. The invaders did not allow us to worship freely - that is why they were reshoim. We never behaved according to Torah and therefore the land kept vomiting us out. Even now with the boom in EY, emigration exceeds immigration.
Rav Kook was a misguided man who even himself said about Aguda versus the frei: "With (Aguda) I have a disagreement about one mitzvah - with (the frei) I have a disagreement about 612." He was far from a great leader (and not respected as a leader at all by those who kept Torah uMitzvos - he was a rav mi-taam appointed by the British) his ideology did not hold water the moment the first scissor snipped off the first "simonim" from the first boy who came from Teiman to EY. His influence on the medina is now nil - after Gaza and the Yigal Amir affair religious Zionism went downhill. Most "religous Zionists" live in the settlements of Teaneck, Woodmere, the Upper West Side and Kew Gardens Hills.
I don't have any more time today but here are just a very few examples of how Jewish the medine is:
The national anthem of the medine was written by an assimilated Czech Jewish composer - and its words were written by a poet who died in New York City of alcohol abuse. Yerushalayim shel Zahav - music shamelessly lifted from Basque folk song - not admitted to until composer was on her deathbed.
The national food of the medine is falafel - Arab origin.
(Runners-up; hummous - Arab origin - I support the Lebanese attempt to delegitimize EY hummous because it has no Jewish roots and therefore should remain Arab and packaged EY hummous is garbage anyway; shawarma - Arab origin possibly from Mongols).
The national pastime of the medine is watching soccer on Shabbos. Enough said.
The music of the medine? What a joke! Third rate old international pop, poor imitations of Greek, Arabic and other Mediterranean pop from the 50's to the 70's. Even the "frum" music coming out of there (not chas vesholom the niggunim of ehrliche baalei menagen like Reb Yirmiye Damen and Reb Chaim Banet but the frum pop) is just pop with somewhat better words - this I understand because it helps to reach people who listen to cheap secular pop.
The only remotely Jewish part of the culture of the medine is Ivrit. However, it is a desecration of lashon hakodesh, full of borrowed words, purposely recast words and of course nivul peh. Now, thanks to the Internet I don't need it to speak to a Jew from say, Brazil, because he speaks English.
Why are some Jews against Israel?
Why is Israel against the Jews
These 2 questions should be reworded as follows: Why are religious and irreligious Jews anywhere in the world always fighting against each other and putting each other down? It is a real shame that this happens. Yes, torah Jews wish to ensure that they are not influenced chas vshalom by the irreligious who in turn think that we live in the dark ages and should stop imposing our old fashioned way of life upon them. But it still sad that there is such animosity and hatred between 2 camps of Yidden, yes they are Yidden, and we cant all live our separate lives with less antagonism.
Does it matter where the stuff came from
The Standard Jew Food today is Pizza and Chinese, You judge a jewish neighborhood by the number of Pizza Shops and Chinese takeouts. I dont think they were eating Pizza and Chinese in the Shtel.
The Standard Chasidic garb is actually Polish Aristicracy dress.
The Melody to Maoz Tsur is Germanic Church music.
Yiddish is a germanic language. More like German than Hebrew.
Does it matter what the source is, what matters is what it is used today
In the old days, it was like the European type kehilla where I now live - one kehilla, the rov leading with non-frum support, a few of the more frum types feeling more comfortable among themselves in a corner of the shul but still very much a part of the community and looked up to rather than down upon, a few free-thinkers leaving altogether but still coming back to visit - one set of rules based on Torah - but out of shul you do what you want.
In EY it is the baryonim and sicarii running the show, a few frum politicians ranging from ehrlich to farkoift there for window-dressing, and if you're frum it's Dros Kol Dos for you.
Therefore, the kanoim are strengthened because they need to fight back - they don't do it right and end up causing more machloikes. Those who want to bring up the standards end up trying to keep afloat in the mud and instead sink themselves (the failure of religious Zionism, the nauseating sight of seeing a Lubavitcher lighting the torch against the Rebbe's clearly stated past wishes and saying something assinine on top of that, the Shas corruption scandals etc).
Olam hafuch ani roeh. I'd prefer Moshiach to make things right, but if there is an interim step in which the UN forces the medine into a corner, I am prepared to volunteer to help the refugees.
Yawn. No one but Chassidim wear that dress today. It has become Jewish precisely because everyone else discarded it. I don't even know when the pritzim stopped wearing it but it was well before the time of the Communist revolution - and you had Jews who were moiser nefesh to dress that way after the Communists took over and it was a good way to end up in a Gulag uniform.
Yiddish was never standardized. You don't need one word of Yiddish to understand the Lubavitcher Rebbe if you understand loshon hakoidesh because he turns roots in laha"k into Yiddish words (not uncommon among my friends who are from EY and speak Yiddish) - and an average yeshivish speaker probably can understand (lehavdil) Lipa's songs except for a few words he has to ask his friend to ask his baabe. The real non-Jewish Yiddish was the shund from the Bund who purposely replaced laha"k with Slavic words.
When you go to NY and look for hummous and falafel, even as far back as 1984, 50% chance you are going to find it in an Arab grocery or restaurant (or in a health food place).
Maoz Tzur was uplifted (not that I sing it myself - to me that tune is a part of the misbegotten secular Jewish culture of my youth - I don't sing very well so I don't care to sing anything in public but if I listen to Chanuka songs I have albums from R Damen/Belz and R' Banet/ Seret-Vizhnitz with parts of Maoz Tzur).
The food was not uplifted, except for the 10% of it or so that is sold to people who make brochos on it. And the problem is that this non-Jewish food is a symbol of the non-Jewishness and the new "Israeli" identity of the medine. Chinese food is (mock) Chinese in Y-m as it is in Flatbush and in Paris and when our restaurant here in Ukraine decides to feature it. We know it isn't ours - but we eat it and make a brocho on it so it is. It's not a symbol of anything - only challah is out of anything we eat during the year. Falafel, which comes from the pere odom's descendants, is now "Israeli". Why couldn't the oisvorf Zionists hollow out a piece of challah and fill it with salad? Actually tastes good and just as convenient as an Arab pita (which actually may have come from ancient Judea but I think that's a false theory).
I judge a Jewish neighborhood by the covered heads (male and female), the sforim shops and store names like "Refuah Pharmacy" (actually it's Rafieh spelled just like that because it's on Lee Ave in Williamsburgh!) and "Rechev Car Service". I don't remember if there is a Chinese restaurant in Syrian Flatbush (where they'd be the first ones to tell you they're eating what their Arab neighbors ate) - there is a pizza shop.
600kilobear -- As is clear from my previous posts I am in no way a Zionist. However some of your posts are over the top, in my opinion. It is absolutely true that the current "medina" is very secular, but your implication that the culture is not primarily Jewish is not accurate. In fact one of the main redeeming factors of the state of Israel as a "Jewish state" is the fact that even the secular Jews here are much closer to Torah and Mitzvos then in other places, partly as a result of the "Jewish" culture, much of which is due to the strong fighting done by the Yishuv Hayashan and its leaders in the early years.
Numerous studies have shown that the rate of non-religious Jews in Israel who fast on Yom Kippur, have a Pesach Seder, and light Shabbos candles far exceed the rates in the US. A secular Jew in Israel is more likely to keep some sort of Kosher, to avoid Chometz on Pesach, to celebrate Purim, and even to shake lulav and esrog. All of these activities may be "cultural" rather than completely religious, but obviously the Mitzvos have value, and these Jews are that much closer to eventually understanding their meaning.
Unfortunately time is chipping away at much of the status quo that was in favor of Yiddishkeit, but there still exists much to be thankful for. Shabbos is recognized (although this is an area that has gotten much worse in the past few decades), and one must go out of his way to find real treif food. I recently had to be in a mall and commented to my husband that despite the fact that 80% of the people around did not seem religious, all of the restaurants in the "food court" -- about 12 -- had some sort of Kahrus certificate. When taking a taxi a few weeks before Pesach, the clearly Chiloni driver began to tell me about how his Pesach cleaning was going -- and he didn't meant spring cleaning! He was discussing scrubbing down his oven and fridge to remove Chometz.
Again, this is a complex topic, and the bottom line is that I think we can all agree that the best solution to this discussion would be the coming of Moshiach Tzidkeinu and the geulah!
It is very easy to find treyf even a stone's throw (no pun intended) from Mea Shearim. There always was a Mizra store off of King George - but now thanks to Tuv Taam, which showed amazing sales during Pesach, and the Russian "delis" you don't have to go far to find treyf in EY. I had to go very far to find kosher the last time I was on now-sleazy Dizengoff st in Tel Aviv thanks to all the Russian delis.
Shaking a lulav is nothing - we at Chabad are so good at mivtzoim now (and our numbers of young people with time to do this on chol hamoed have grown so) that we probably inadvertently have Russian non-Jews shaking lulavim on the streets along with their Jewish friends (one more reason to condemn the medine - you no longer even know who is a Jew)! I'd like to know how many buy a lulav and esrog, which shows commitment.
And remember - lies, ***n lies and statistics. Having given my age as 92 on a survey when I was barely 20, and given that yes, some Jews are embarrassed to admit that they do eat on YK because they know it's wrong, I suspect that the survey is not accurate.
To give Rav Kook's shita a plug, he defined the Medina as a Keli, which could be filled with either tumah or tahara. From his writings and his works, you know he was not content to leave it in the hands of the seculars. He wrote that love of the land without love of Torah would ultimately turn to hatted for the land and its lovers.
While I don't accept Rav Kook's shita, I wonder if what I don't accept is the soundbite version of it and whether, in reality, he was far closer to Shas or UTJ than to what is left of RZ. Shas actually has the right idea, but unfortunately it is so mired in political corruption scandals and has very bad PR.
Rav Kook was a charedi jew and a Zionist and one of the greatest leaders we have ever had
Satmar has a lot to learn from this Tzaddik Gomur, on a day when they had the audacity to vilify Israel, and El Al Airlines, and patronize Delta, and try to show disdain to a fair & just electoral system in Israel, even fairer than in the USA, where in Israel the popular vote is what counts.
El Al does wonderful Chassodim for the Jewish people, especially Lo Oleinu, for the deceased always facilitating immediate Kevuroh in Eretz Yisroel. I always fly with El Al, even when they are more expensive than Delta, as I want my hard earned money to go to a Jewish & Shomer Shabbos company.
147: You said, above- "try to show disdain to a fair & just electoral system in Israel".
Nothing "fair" about it, most should not be voted for.
147 -"I always fly with El Al, even when they are more expensive than Delta, as I want my hard earned money to go to a Jewish & Shomer Shabbos company."
So what you're saying is - Satmar should be like you - a Farbissena, Farbrenta Tzioni and pay more money just to fly with a Zionist airline.
In quite a few topics you posted this news - it seems to me that you're looking for a fight when there is none. Stop being a storm in a tea cup.
Even if I wasn't Anti-zionist, why should s/o pay more money to fly with Israel's official airline, esp. when they don't believe in the Medina? You might disagree with them when it comes to the Medina, but your posts are illogical when it comes to them flying Delta over El-Al!
what really got me upset though is too see these groups publicly burning the Israeli flag and even more so in front of the Ponevich yeshiva. I think this is a huge Chillul Hashem.
The Chillul Hashem is that Jews were burning a flag. The fact that is was an Israeli flag is no more of a Chillul Hashem than if it was an American flag or a British flag.
People must understand that 'Jews' and 'Israel' are not intertwined and are not synonymous with each other. Nobody is anti-Isreal more than anti-USA; they are against the fact that there is a "Jewish" state. Satmar would be delighted is Israel offered their country up as a state of America. It is the fact that it is shown off as Jewish, the fact that the secular world find it so difficult to distinguish between Jewish and Israeli, that causes such a Chillul Hashem.
I see no reason why Netanyahu and his government are any worse than Obama. But there is room to discuss whether a 'Jewish state' is permitted at all [which is a massive מחלוקת of גדולים, not for us to decide], and if it makes it worse that this 'Jewish state' is run by a secular government.
What I don't understand is: To those who hold that it is wrong and forbidden to take back the State of Israel by force (and i am not discussing whether this is called a State of Israel or whether this was called Force) - are you not crying over spilled milk? Since 1948, there has been a recognized State of Israel. Now Israel is being surrounded by enemies who seem to be warning us of the imminent arrival of Moshiach במהרה בימינו אמן - what do you propose Israel does -- lay down weapons and give the reins to Ahmadinejad?
What do you propose Israel should do to conform with Halocho - is there any solution that is constructive?
I now always fly United/Continental when I visit EY, because my experience with El Al was as follows:
1) EL AL is mechalel shabbos
2) El Al has those nasty secular Israeli personnel who hate chareidi Jews
2) El Al rarely if ever accommodates a minyan
United/ Continental goes out of the way to accomodate a minyan if possible, & show much more respect to chareidi passengers
Satmar shows disdain to a fair & just electoral system.
This comment shows how deep you have your head in the sand…. & are so blinded by the Avodah Zarah of Zionism that you call night to be day
I agree with the state of israel
although i wish that they didn't accept homosexuality like they do and i wished many things would change we still can't have a real beis din were we can force other jews to keep the torah. we can try kiruv but no one can have a solution other than that. its the first time since the begging of the exile that we can really have the freedom to worship and set up frum communities.
sure it is true many other countries allow us to have freedom of worship (like the USA) but do this countries also allow homosexuality and abortion? most of them do. and according to the rambam only mitzvot done in E"Y count, so you tell me if it is the same to be in the states or if it's not a good thing to have the state of israel.
obviously we still need geula and israel has its flaws but is still the best place for a jew to be.
"Why are some religious Jews against Israel?" Some Jews come from the Erev Rav that left Egypt together with authentic Bnai Yisroel.
Over time, the Erev Rav intermingled with klaal yisroel. It became impossible to know who has roots in the Erev Rav and who is from the Shvatim. But on some occasions the Erev Rav rears its ugly head, specifically when it comes to Eretz Yisroel.
The Erev Rav did not have a chelek in EY (which was divided to shvotim only). Since the Erev Rav have no connection with EY, they try to discourage other yidden from maintaining the love and deep rooted inheritance they have with EY.
That is how we can tell who is from the Erev Rav - so it is really a brocha, when some Jews are against Israel, their mask is removed and they show us that they are Erev Rav. Only then can we can know who is an impostor in our midst.
1. Rav Kook was a great leader and was recognized as such by all of the gedolim and especiallty Rav Sonnenfeld (who gave him a beracha to be Cohen Gadol), Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach and Rav Eliashiv. Anyone who disparages him is doing an extremely swerious aveira.
2. Anyone who sees Hashem's Hand in history knows that the British were at the time willingto help the Geula and the Turks tried to interfere. Later, the sun set on the British Empire.
3. Both Rav Kook and the Imrei Emet called for frum aliya because they saw what would happen if there was not.The present sttate is due to the fact that frum Jews continue to err.
mogold -- I think the consensus of authorities these days is that you should daven in your seat rather than inconvenience your fellow passengers, daven in an inappropriate place, etc.
shmendrick/ Zionist -"That is how we can tell who is from the Erev Rav - so it is really a brocha, when some Jews are against Israel, their mask is removed and they show us that they are Erev Rav. Only then can we can know who is an impostor in our midst."
Really almost every Godol was against the Medina and we posted their names in the CR in the past. Some Gedolim held once it's here we join the Gov. to protect Frum interests. So s/o who is pro the Medina and against almost every Godol are the real imposters -namely the Zionists and their supporters.
I meant to say that whenever possible, United/Continental has a much better track record of accomodating minyunim then El Al does,going so far as to vacate the galley for 30 minutes for a minyan, yes, I was once in such a situation , where a respectful request was made, and the crew granted this privilige.
However You are 100% correct, that if this inconveniences the crew or fellow passengers, then you should rather daven in your seat
To Health - do you know that it is very likely that among the Erev Rav there were some who were lamdonim and potential gedolim? Korach himself was also a lamdan and a pikayach (wise man) too and he was considered a "godol" (leading many choshuv yidden)!
Mogold - Why should it inconvience El-Al? Tower/Metro always used to let the people Daven in the back. It's only an inconvience if you think that there is no purpose for a bunch of religious Jews to get up in the aisle to pray. If you think praying is a waste of time - then it becomes an inconvience to you, whether you're the crew or the passengers.
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