Why do people think they could “trust themselves” with smartphones?

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  • #1525920

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I was in Jackson Hole July 4th time, it was pretty warm and the whole town smelled of cooking Beef

    #1526095

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    I think what he meant with the lobster case is that a BT is used to having eaten it his whole life. This concept has a basis in halachah by Pesach where there are harchakas on account of us being used to eating it our whole lives.

    I assume he was talking about a “fresh off the boat” BT. If someone would make this presumption about a person who has been a BT for many years it would certainly be demeaning.

    #1526101

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Some BT’s do have a problem getting a Taavah for something they can no longer eat

    Ask an FFB about Lobster and ask a BT about it. An FFB would likely be repulsed by it, but a BT might have a problem if he smelled one

    I’m sure you would agree that despite someone having a taavah for it, it would still be assur.

    I’m not sure why that part of the analogy to a smartphone doesn’t work for you. Whatever the rabbonim feel about smartphones (assur, unwise, only filtered, etc.) shouldn’t be affected by the fact that people have them, the same way lobster isn’t muttar for a BT.

    #1526240

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Neville ChaimBerlin,

    “I think what he meant with the lobster case is that a BT is used to having eaten it his whole life.”

    The statement didn’t seem to indicate a concern that the BT might accidentally eat lobster because he was used to doing it his whole life. It implied that the BT would be in danger of being overcome by a yetzer to eat it if he merely smelled it.

    #1526241

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    zahavasdad,

    “it is a bigger mitzvah to eat Kosher if you are tempted not to, than if you are repulsed by a non-kosher food item.”

    Yes, but the ideal goal is to then train oneself to the point where there is no longer a temptation. Overcoming trials in service of Hashem is definitely among the most praiseworthy things a person can do, but your statement painted a picture of a BT as a person one sniff away from potentially sinning or going OTD.

    #1526753

    MasmidInTraining
    Participant

    Laniyas da’ati, if a Rav has a smartphone, he is being oveir lifnei iveir, and definitely should not be a rav. If somebody actually “needs” a smartphone, they should get a huge “kosher” sticker clearly visible on the back.

    #1526772

    oyyoyyoy
    Participant

    Well i dont know about that. Lifnie iveir??? He shouldnt be a rav?

    #1526780

    Shopping613 🌠
    Participant

    Avram, according to your point that’s exactly why smartphones shouldn’t be used!
    Most people will not be able to overcome temptation. Just like with heavy perscription drugs that your Doctor may tell you that you need to take but very very little because you will be addicted, it’s a phsyical response you cannot control, that is bigger than you.

    Even if you say you can overcome it.
    THAT’S TODAY.
    What bout tomorrow? Every day they spend millions of dollars trying to get it a little tighter, make it a little more addictive. How long can one hold out for?

    So my opinion is to use it minimally or not at all if possible.
    Just like with the drugs, if you don’t truly need them and you can use other drugs that aren’t addictive, or as addictive, than do that.

    #1530821

    No, we certainly don’t trust ourselves with lashon hara! Hence the laws against avak
    lashon hara, living in a place where lashon hara is rampant, hearing others speak it, etc.

    Some of those laws are definitely for other reasons. For example,
    listening to someone else speak lasho hara is a violation of lifnei iver.

    #1530898

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    The bottom line is the world is changing rapidly to an exclusively electronic/online mode of communications and commercial interaction. Paper documents and cash will be stuff you see in a museum. You will need a smart phone for basic life functions from purchasing a container of milk, reviewing resumes from a shadchan, making an airline reservation, paying the bus-fare or communicating with first responders. Hard copy printed seforim will be phased out and electronic versions on tablets will take their place. Its time to begin educating our children ho to use a smart phone responsibly rather than making believe they will be able to function without one indefinitely.

    #1530900

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    The bottom line is the world is changing rapidly to an exclusively electronic/online mode of communications and commercial interaction. Paper documents and cash will be stuff you see in a museum. You will need a smart phone for basic life functions from purchasing a container of milk, reviewing resumes from a shadchan, making an airline reservation, paying the bus-fare or communicating with first responders.

    Meanwhile, many can manage without it and avoid the dangers. Daya l’tzara b’shaata.

    Hard copy printed seforim will be phased out and electronic versions on tablets will take their place.

    I guess you don’t realize this, but frum Yidden don’t use these devices on Shabbos or Yom Tov.

    #1530903

    yrechnitz
    Participant

    Masmid In Training- La’aniyas daati, regarding internet/pritzus there is no difference between a phone and a computer. May I ask by which medium you are posting to this forum? Did you hire a goy (or a guy who used to be a yid but now wears colored shirts) to sit at a device-which obviously you don’t possess-to post to this forum for you? JUST BECAUSE you have a dumb shita which is being choshesh many yidden (Oh sorry. Yehudim. 😉 ) doesn’t mean you should sit in front of a michshal (which, as we know, isn’t filtered, because why would we be dan l’kaf zchus?) and write them. When you’re in someone’s house-let’s say a rebbi or rov or someone else you look up to (obviously not some random guy off the street 😉 ), and you see a computer, you assume that it is filtered. If you saw said person with a smartphone, you would obviously assume that it’s filtered. Why, when someone is seen with a smartphone, are they all of a sudden a goy or a rasha?
    Why aren’t you dan l’kaf zchus as you would be with a chashuva person? Judging and labeling are huge problems nowadays, and definitely more destructive than a smartphone with a filter or lack 😉 thereof.

    You sound like a bachur (hence MasmidInTraining) who is full of dumb shitos. I know some people like that. Instead of using a computer-obviously not fitered-why don’t you just tell them to your friends?

    V’shom Naaleh-not Neired 😉

    #1530934

    avreimi
    Participant

    I do not see any reference to a smartphone in the Torah. The Rambam does not refer to smartphones. As with virtually everything not specifically referenced in the Torah, there are chekei deios between the Poskim. I personally know several Rebbes and Rabbonim who have -unfiltered- smartphones, forget filtered ones. There is no clearly no issur d’oraisa involved here. Anyone who suggests otherwise is deluding himself and others.

    #1531083

    MasmidInTraining
    Participant

    Yrechnitz, go back to Nalaland. I think you lack lack lack enough information on the subject. Smartphones are portable and obviously much worse.

    #1531227

    USnebech
    Participant

    The answer is simply 2 words
    יצר הרע

    #1531225

    Shopping613 🌠
    Participant

    avreimi, I don’t know which Rabbis you know but I wouldn’t call those people Rabbis.
    Gadol Hadorah: This is true. I have mentioned multiple times that because extremists in Israel are SO anti it, it has created a large enough population that the government is forced to accommodate. I think it will take much more time to fully be integrated in Israel and it is definitely possible to live, thrive, get around, and do anything here with no smartphone. I don’t know the situation in America.

    I also do think books are not going out of style. Many nonjews also prefer books, holding it, flipping pages. Avid readers and writers…

    #1531740

    MasmidInTraining
    Participant

    Hello, לשיטתי, Torah and technology don’t mix when not necessary, דהיינו seforim.

    #1531809

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    In the alte heim, they never worried about kosher for shabbos elevators, shabbos friendly refrigerators/freezers and dozens of innovations they have evolved to serve a need, albeit not necessary accepted by all segments fo the tzibur. I was obviously being a bit sarcastic about hard copy seforim being displaced entirely by electronic devices but there is probably some frum geek in Palo Alto or Silicon Wadi (the high tech center outside Tel Aviv) who is researching a virtual reality tech solution where you could wear special kosher of shabbos eyeglasses that would read your thoughts and know exactly where in the davening you were and project the visual on your lens. Don’t try to forecast the boundary between technology and halacha….those who try typically lose or move to meah shearrim and live in a cave.

    #1532074

    DovidBT
    Participant

    a virtual reality tech solution where you could wear special kosher of shabbos eyeglasses that would read your thoughts and know exactly where in the davening you were and project the visual on your lens

    If it can read your thoughts, that opens up other useful applications, such as chastising you if you’re not focused on the davening or if you’re chatting with someone. 🙂

    • This reply was modified 4 months, 2 weeks ago by  YW Moderator-33.
    • This reply was modified 4 months, 2 weeks ago by  DovidBT. Reason: grammar fix
    #1536709

    I personally know several Rebbes and Rabbonim who have -unfiltered- smartphones, forget filtered ones.
    This is hard to believe, or at least it is if you are referring to Orthodox(/chareid) men.

    #1536804

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    MasmidInTrainingParticipant
    Hello, לשיטתי, Torah and technology don’t mix when not necessary, דהיינו seforim.
    —————————————-
    Are you even listening to yourself?
    Seforim and books were and still are aone through technology.
    The first printing press was a major breakthrough in technology.
    Think before u press the send button.
    Horse and buggy was considered a technology at one time. What isnt technology?
    Do u know that when the phones and cars were first invented, the rabbanim of time had a big huge problem on hand because they were convinced that many would use the them for various transgressions?
    Do u also want to ban landlines and cars?

    #1536784

    jew boy2
    Participant

    RABOSAI THERE IS A TERRIBLE MAGEIFA GOING ON AMONGST KLAL…..”SMARTPHONES” ARE NT KOSHER.

    DAVENING IS NOT THE SAME.

    LEARNING IS NOT THE SAME.

    INTERACTIONS WITH ONE ANOTHER…INCLUDING ARE OWN KIDS IS NOT THE SAME.

    PEOPLE ARE LIVING A “LA-LA LAND” LIFE, CONSTANTLY CHECKING THERE PHONE “JUST IN CASE” SOMETHING “IMPORTANT” CAME IN….WE ARE NOT LIVING IN REALITY ANY MORE……..

    I PERSONALLY KNOW OF A MASSE THAT SOMEONE HAD THE AUDACITY TO CHECK THEIR E-MAIL DURING KEDUSHA……..

    #1536883

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    I PERSONALLY KNOW OF A MASSE THAT SOMEONE HAD THE AUDACITY TO CHECK THEIR E-MAIL DURING KEDUSHA……..
    ———————————-
    Firstly, why arent you dan lekav zechus that mmaybe just maybe he was an emergency email he was expecting. 2ndly , if it was during kedusha why would u or anyone else be looking anywhere else but in thier own siddur?
    So obviouly if you knew he was looking at email means you were in essence looking at his phone during that same kedusha. Look in your own back yard before you look at others.

    #1536898

    yrechnitz
    Participant

    Takes2-2tango- Maskim. Not being dan l’kaf zchus (labelling & judging) is a major problem, especially in yeshivishe circles. I daresay it is worse than unfiltered internet. It leads to שנאת חינם, which we know is a major problem. A smartphone (or computer, the point is the internet, not the size of the device) that lacks a proper filter will affect you, but not being dan l’kaf zchus will affect you & others. MasmidInTraining-you sound like that שוטה from the AC Is Assur rant. And yes, most things are technology-even shoelaces and toothbrushes. So next time, think before you open the pandora’s box of “Assur”. Let me guess- music’s assur too, right?

    #1536908

    DovidBT
    Participant

    Unnecessary or inappropriate smartphone usage is a symptom. It’s not the underlying problem.

    #1538300

    MasmidInTraining
    Participant

    To explain my שיטה, I meant that לכתחילה, one should use seforim to learn and Daven over electronics- part of the ta’am of learning is that wonderful breeze generated by the flipping the pages of the holy tomes. That is irreplacable.

    Of course, if it is the only option, electronics are mutar.

    #1538446

    jew boy2
    Participant

    smart phones are dumb.period.

    #1538419

    yrechnitz
    Participant

    MasmidInTraining- Every time you post you are getting yourself stuck deeper and deeper. It’s like a white lie-progressively getting worse and worse. לכתחילה, you should write down your posts on paper (or maybe press them into stone, because pens and paper are technically technology too(so is pressing into stone.אין לדבר סוף)) and mail them to a moderator, thereby limiting your use of 👿 technology.

    #1538509

    The little I know
    Participant

    jewboy2:

    You are getting ridiculous. I know someone who talked in shul while holding an open siddur in front of him. Let’s ban siddurim! The ideas on nonsense are endless. Only truth has uniqueness. No one believes that smartphones do not present nisyonos. But a properly filtered phone is not an issur, and you have no right to declare it so. If someone gets “addicted” to it, the phone is not the problem, the person’s pattern of use is.

    Do you know any alcoholics? Should we ban wine and other alcoholic beverages because some people misuse it? get real. Try to think, instead of shooting out your blanket pronouncements.

    #1539007

    yrechnitz
    Participant

    The Little- exactly. people are stating things that are very broad-what you said- blanket pronouncements. Just like the creator of this thread-MasmidInTraining.

    #1540634

    The little,
    A sly foil to oppose all bans? How about drugs?Biological weapons?Or just jewish ones?Was the ban of 1956 wrong too?Or the Syrian ban of Geirus?

    #1541013

    jew boy2
    Participant

    smart” phones into the fire1

    #1541676

    think 2
    Participant

    Why do you assume I trust myself? Personally I trust (know) myself to fall if I have unfiltered devices around. I don’t care much if others are OK or if they are secretly falling too, I know what works (or rather what doesn’t) work for me so I’m careful. I’m not even thinking in terms of yiddishkit, just in managing as a human. So I conclude to you and your question “why do people think they can trust themselves?” I don’t, and it seems from your question that you don’t trust yourself, so without basing my truth with others actions and what everyone else does, let yourself do what you know is best for you, and don’t care what others do! Hatzlacha Raba!

    #1541795

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    The thing about throwing battery powered devices into fires is that they kind of explode a little.

    #1541724

    The little I know
    Participant

    Time:

    In case you don’t know, there are many uses for a smartphone, which are completely kosher. Many of these are critical for business, and many other benefits exist, as well. Before “banning” anything, one must be certain that no one is throwing out the baby with the bathwater. I am not advocating that anyone have such a phone. And one without a filter carries greater dangers. I know that quite well. So let’s address the examples you provided.

    Drugs – I support keeping illegal drugs illegal. There are many, now quite popular on the street, that are legitimately manufactured medications. These have critical medical uses, but also carry abuse potential. The other non-pharmaceutical drugs have no business being used, and possession and dealing in them should be a crime.

    Biological weapons – I claim zero expertise in warfare. As I understand, these agents cannot be used, as per international agreements. If so, there is no reason not to ban them. They have no legitimate use. If you find a reason to use them appropriately, you should need to document that.

    The ban of 1956 – I suspect you are referring to the ban in several cities against rock and roll music. Again, there is a judgment call about the dangers outweighing the benefits. It did not succeed because there was no support for it. We can hold a debate to retrospect about the advantage or disadvantage of such a ban. But that was the process, and it needs to be used for smartphones.

    Syrian ban on Geirus – This was a rabbinic decision. It did not nullify geirus. It just involved the community not engaging in it, or supporting it. No Syrian could justify making a Ger Tzedek be mechalel Shabbos because of גוי ששבת חייב מיתה. The feeling (I have heard this from Syrian rabbonim) is that there are too many variables in the process that they were never sure it would be completely reliable. So they chose to avoid it. Yes, geirus is considered a blemish in that community. Once again, the benefits and risks were balanced out, and led to their decision. It is not exactly a ban, but I see your perception of similarity.

    #1544334

    Do u know that when the phones and cars were first invented, the rabbanim of time had a big huge problem
    on hand because they were convinced that many would use the them for various transgressions?

    I don’t think it can be denied that modern transportation has facilitated numerous aveiros.

    Do u also want to ban landlines and cars?

    I’ve heard in the name of the Steipler that the Sanhedrin would have
    forbidden the use of cars because of the danger they pose to life.

    #1545071

    Rand0m3x , That might prove the contrary actually,

    Cars are forbidden to minors or anyone who is unable to follow the regulations .
    Even when someone weakens e.g. old age, they lose their licence

    Second,with a vehicle,though it does make it easier, one still needs to go actively out to sin.(which was the case with horses & stagecoaches too)With a phone one could sit or lie in bed

    (Finally ,in some communities the women refrain to this day from driving)

    #1545087

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Just ban the Printing Press, How much Kefira has been spread because of it. No Printing Press, No Charles Darwin

    #1545098

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Why not assur everything that could remotely be used, directly or indirectly, in committing avieros. Those who mindlessly speak about assuring automobiles, electric-powered devices, and other forms of modern technology obviously have concluded the Ebeshter made a mistake when giving us the sechel to transform technology and improve the quality of our lives. Would the Steipler, Z’L, have preferred a woman with 5 yinglach to get to cheder drive them in a horse drawn cart down 13th avenue (rather than her minivan)? We have seen too many videos of chashuve rabbonim and even gadolei h’dor flying on private jets, being treated in hospitals that rely on the internet for medical knowledge and information sharing etc. to accept these recyled arguments against using modern technology.

    #1545107

    Zdad,and Gadolhadorah,
    It really needs to be all assur or nothing [unfettered completely]?it’s either or?How about limits?Are they off limits[pun] ?

    Edited

    #1545109

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I’ve heard in the name of the Steipler that the Sanhedrin would have
    forbidden the use of cars because of the danger they pose to life.

    I would like proof of this and even if its true, Even if jews dont drive, Non Jews do drive and there is still the danger of being hit by a car driven by a non-jews, the Sanhedrin has no power over them

    #1545110

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I’ve heard in the name of the Steipler that the Sanhedrin would have
    forbidden the use of cars because of the danger they pose to life.

    Please provide actual evidience he said this, unfortunatly many people say things in the name of Gedolim that the Gadol never said

    #1545111

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Gadolhadorah,

    “Why not assur everything that could remotely be used, directly or indirectly, in committing avieros.”

    Reductio ad absurdum. The decision whether to ban smartphones or not is based on a risk/benefit analysis. Nobody denies the benefits of a smartphone, but the risks introduced by the technology are also quite high. Therefore, some have concluded that at this point, the risks outweigh the benefits. Filtering technology, apps, and cultural changes may well change that calculus now or in the future, but that’s the way it is. The balance of risks and benefits will be different for other technologies.

    “Those who mindlessly speak about assuring automobiles, electric-powered devices, and other forms of modern technology obviously have concluded the Ebeshter made a mistake when giving us the sechel to transform technology and improve the quality of our lives.”

    First, just because you disagree with another poster’s point does not make him or her “mindless.” Second, “they” have not concluded that any mistakes in the setup of the world have been made, CV”S. Rather, they disagree with you that smartphones have resulted in a net improvement to quality of life.

    #1563283

    knaidlach
    Participant

    the fact is people dont have sech a TAAVA to eat traif or mechalel shabbos etc. but the tava to gilui arayos or avisreihoo….is very strong. אין אפיטרופוס לעריות. and its so easy to fall. one press of a botton and you are deep deep in a mud whole, and then its even harder to keep back ה’ ישמרנו.
    and the fact is that many many finne yidden who do not eat tyraif and do not mechalel shabbos and daven 3 times a day. and have mehuderdige tefilin etc. etc. unfortunantly have fallen in the mud whole through computer and phone, and have caused so much tsoros for themselfes and their families. people have lost their families, jobs, health ה’ ישמרנו מכל צרה

    #1563520

    To call something “reductio ad absurdum” is merely to classify it;
    it’s a type of argument, not a logical fallacy.

    #1563523

    Why not assur everything that could remotely be used, directly or indirectly,
    in committing aveiros.

    Because that would be as silly as that argument is.

    Those who mindlessly speak about assuring automobiles, electric-powered devices,
    and other forms of modern technology…

    Really? Have any rabbonim ever spoken of forbidding electricity?

    We have seen too many videos of chashuve rabbonim and even gadolei h’dor flying on
    private jets, being treated in hospitals that rely on the internet for medical knowledge and
    information sharing etc. to accept these recycled arguments against using modern technology.

    Surely you’re joking, Shirley.

    #1563619

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    We should all have our tounges cut out because we speak loshon hora even in our homes in front of other family members and certainly in private. Speaking Loshon hora and and receiving it are all isurei d’orysa. Why is no one up in arms about it. We should have public tounge removals just like we have public smartphone burnings.
    If you promise to not speak loshon hora you would go to a special place to have your tongue hot branded with a m’ushar stamp.
    That should stop loshon hora for ever. Whats the next project now that we too care of phones and loshon hora? How about getting rid of molesters?

    #1569052

    luv e/ yid
    Participant

    most ppl. need it for different reasons,(business,family etc.) but every person should be honest with themselves what they really need and what is just there for entertainment, and at the least put a filter on it such as NetSpark, TAG etc, these filters have the option of having some stuff open and some closed…every person that cares about his life and doesn’t want to throw it away, should have a filter.

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