Why Would a Girl Even Want to Learn Talmud?

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  • #1441246

    Joseph
    Participant

    Chabadshlucha: You could just read the Artscroll books of Gemorah stories to get what you’re doing.

    #1441254

    Lubavitcher
    Participant

    We leanred the Gemara itself and rarely we learned Rashi and Toisfois and those are the only mefarshim we ever learned

    #1441282

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    We leanred the Gemara itself and rarely we learned Rashi and Toisfois and those are the only mefarshim we ever learned

    Is that typical in Lubavitch?

    #1441307

    benignuman
    Participant

    Streetgeek and Mindful,

    I would recommend learning Gemara from a rebbi, not simply picking up an Artscroll. Artscroll, although fantastic, cannot replace learning from a real rebbi and becoming proficient enough to learn on one’s own.

    “The Rambam also writes in his Mishne Torah that a man can beat his wife with a stick (he may need permission of Bais Din, unclear from text) if she refuses to wash his feet or make his bed.”

    The Rambam did not write this. This is a widely misunderstood Rambam. The Rambam is discussing marriages where the husband or the wife is not fulfilling his or her obligations to their spouse and one spouse takes the other to Bais Din to enforce the rules of marriage. (These cases are discussed in the Gemara as well). Everyone agrees that there are marital obligations that can be enforced by Bais Din through kefiyah (forcing). Rambam holds that Bais Din (not the husband or wife personally) can use kefiyah b’shotim (with sticks) to force both a man and woman to fulfill their obligations (just like they do when forcing a man to give a get or bring a korban, etc.). The Raavad on the spot argues and says that we don’t find kefiyah b’shotim against a woman, rather Bais Din is kofeh her by knocking money of her kesubah week by week until she complies.

    #1441319

    Lubavitcher
    Participant

    ANd it was from a regular Gemara copied onto paper.
    No English translation.
    This is how chabad girls learn Gemara

    #1441320

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    “Chabadshlucha: I was under the impression that Chabad girls learn Gemara but mainly through Ein Yaakov, as the Rebbe specifically suggested. Is this correct, or do girls today actually learn Gemara as boys do, focusing on its halachic discussions as well?”

    Depends on the school, ideologically yes but most high schools do not have a gemara class simply because there are more important lessons to learn for girls. In sem beis I learned a mishnayos class with the gemara questions, and at first I thought it was quite fascinating, until I realized we were still debating the same shnayim ochazin btalis like half a year later and it was going nowhere as far as final halacha, and then I was like oh now I get why women never learned gemara lol.

    That said I have built up a bit of an aramaic vocabulary over the years between mefarshei Rashi in chumash, Aggada / Ein Yaakov I learned on my own – took out of the library, and many gemaras quoted in the sichos.

    I have learned much of the Rambam pertaining to women if not all, and looked up many references in gemara about women as well such as the tu bav sugya and others. But that’s different because it’s personal interest. But I’ll leave the nitty-gritty to the men for the most part, and leave your wearing the hats (I don’t have one to take off)

    @daasyochid lubavitcher must be a woman. The men do the whole nine yards.

    #1441322

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    @benugnuman thanks for clarifying that for us. Would’ve looked it up otherwise on my next curious learning excursion.

    #1441324

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    @joseph
    “Chabadshlucha: You could just read the Artscroll books of Gemorah stories to get what you’re doing”

    No it’s completely different! Artscroll gives the mefarshim that discuss the pshat, Chassidus reveals the underlying dynamic. What can I say? Taamu uru…

    #1441327

    Joseph
    Participant

    Benignuman, the Raavad says another option for Beis Din is to reduce the food she’s given, until she complies.

    #1441340

    Put down the gun
    Participant

    @chabadshlucha. Who was the famous chabad rebetzin that would learn gemara? I think she is mentioned in the previous rebbes memoirs.

    #1441434

    Like try learning the story of rabba shechting Rav Zeira on Purim one year,
    reviving him the next day through davening, and then not only NOT doing
    teshuva for slaughtering someone, but cheerfully offering to do it again
    the next year.

    His host offered to eat again together the next year, not to slaughter
    him again. Also, some interpret the wording to mean that Rav Zeira
    was forced to drink too much wine (as opposed to having his throat slit).
    As for doing teshuvah, serious intoxication was involved – perhaps
    things done only due to such a state do not require teshuvah.

    #1441510

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    @@chabadshlucha. Who was the famous chabad rebetzin that would learn gemara? I think she is mentioned in the previous rebbes memoirs”

    Rochel, and she eventually taught get daughter as well. Here’s is an interesting story because she came from a Chassidishe family (if you can call it that as it was pre the Baal Shem Tov) but she married a man from a misnagdishe background who disapproved of women learning. Meanwhile she was quite a scholar…

    #1441569

    GAON
    Participant

    Put down –
    it wasn’t a Chabd rebetzin it was I think the grandmother of the Alte Rebbe who his daughter דבורה לאה was named after.

    #1441638

    Binyanadead
    Participant

    I dont have a SA or RAMBAM in front of me, but I believe the only issur is for a Father to teach his daughter, nowhere is there any issur brought down for a woman to pick up a gemara and learn on her own, with friends, or with teachers. As long as its not her Father teaching her.

    #1441625

    GAON
    Participant

    “but she married a man from a misnagdishe background who disapproved of women learning”

    Shlucha – at the time there was no diff b/w misnagdim and Chassidim on that aspect. (asides that there was no concept of ‘hisnagdus then)

    #1441514

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    “His host offered to eat again together the next year, not to slaughter
    him again.”

    Well obviously not. But one would think he would not have the same set up if the previous year had led to a near tragedy.

    ” Also, some interpret the wording to mean that Rav Zeira
    was forced to drink too much wine (as opposed to having his throat slit).”

    Yeah that ties into the understanding, and was brought in the sicha.

    “As for doing teshuvah, serious intoxication was involved – perhaps
    things done only due to such a state do not require teshuvah”

    Why? If someone kills someone by accident he still has to go to an ir miklat for the rest of his life because he was careless enough to get to that mistake. Many Torah greats from the shtetl era would go into galus over minor infractions, and the Tannaim were even greater than then so kal vchomer there should have seemingly been Serious teshuva, and here….

    #1441708

    Joseph
    Participant

    CS, ir miklat is till the Kohein Gadol is niftar, not for life.

    The prohibition against teaching Torah shebalpeh (i.e Gemorah, etc.) to girls/women is a Halacha in the Gemorah that the Shulchan Aruch and Rema (and everyone since Chazal through the times of the Chofetz Chaim) pasken l’Halacha. The Chofetz Chaim issued a heter due to the shas hadchak to teach girls Torah formally in schools, something that until that time had virtually never occurred in Klal due to the aforementioned Halacha.

    #1441726

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    Joseph it isn’t that simple or nobody would have allowed it until our times. The fact that this disagreement over girls learning existed then, and the proponents of teaching mandala, tremendous gaonim, encouraged it, shows that is not a simple open and closed kosher and treif issue. Their daughters were all educated.

    #1441742

    GAON
    Participant

    CS,

    “Their daughters were all educated.”

    There is a major difference between being “educed’ on your own than implementing it as part of a curriculum. The Rambam and the Talmud prohibit only “teaching” , we do not find any issur is the very learning.

    #1441743

    GAON
    Participant

    “Chassidus reveals the underlying dynamic.”

    CS,

    It doesn’t have to be Chassidus you can learn Mahral and others for that.

    #1441816

    DovidBT
    Participant

    the drei kup stuff like 15 opinions on what the halacha could be based on the wording of the mishnah

    Does “drei kup” translate as “confusing”?

    #1441790

    Tzofnas Paneach
    Participant

    If you would want to continue this discussion with me, and if my assessment based on your response, will dictate to me that this may be worthwhile, I would want to do it in a separate forum without the entire audience.

    #1441789

    Tzofnas Paneach
    Participant

    BY Maidel

    I haven’t seen all of the posts, only your opening post. But let me address it to the best of my ability.

    On the one hand we find in halacha that women may not hold certain positions, and play certain roles. Yet, we don’t seem to perceive any deficiencies in women’s cognitive skills. Even Devora Hanevia, who was a shofetes, didn’t function as a dayan on her own, but simply instructed male dayanim. So clearly she had the qualities of knowing halacha but still was not eligible to function as a dayan. So just from that instance itself, even without taking into account our own observations, we see the apparent contradiction. Anyone has the wisdom to realize that this is a good question, and yet the ruling in the case of Devorah was as stated. So clearly there is something that they knew or understood that justified that position.

    Let me take a step back, before I continue.

    I am a talmudic scholar. In my early youth, I considered many of the most profound philosophical questions, which challenge or otherwise relate to our religion. I have good answers for lot’s of things for which others, even famous scholars, do not. But when I didn’t have the answer, I never felt that the required concept was truly in question, and the integrity of that concept did lessen at all in my eyes. Probably that was due to my youth and innocence, at the time that I dealt with these issues. And so, I used all of my tools of logic to deal with these questions to the best of my ability, and I walked away with a wealth of understanding. More recently, however, after I had gotten much older, and had been through much pain and difficulty in my life, and had not had the ability to be a full time student as should have been my calling, I had a different experience. I recently saw some kfira on line. It did taint me at the time, rachmana litzlan, and for a long time after that, I was walking around with thoughts that I hated myself for having. I realized then, how true is the warning that we are instructed by halacha, that we may not enter into a discussion with a heretic. But I knew that if I would have been a better man, stronger in my emunah, I would have remained untainted as had been the case always in my youth. I then resolved never again to enter into a dialogue with, or even listen to, or read the words of, heretics.

    What changed? Was I less able to work through logical issues that in my early youth. Certainly not! I’m only getting better all the time, Baruch Hashem. But something about me, I can only guess but not know for sure exactly what, made me such that I couldn’t deal with these types of things as I once could.

    Now supposing Chaza”l would tell us some clear distinction between what type of person may, and what type of person may not have such discussions, would we perceive the distinction? Would we have the understanding for it to justify it out of our own understanding? Probably not.

    This is a beginning of a longer discussion, should you feel that what I can offer is of value to you, and should you be truly open to hearing something/s which would ease your discrepancies, and dull the sharpness of those questions which eat away at your innocence.

    #1441787

    Non Political
    Participant

    @gaon

    It doesn’t have to be Chassidus you can learn Mahral and others for that.

    +1

    #1442047

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    @gaon “There is a major difference between being “educed’ on your own than implementing it as part of a curriculum. The Rambam and the Talmud prohibit only “teaching” , we do not find any issur is the very learning.”

    True but they educated their daughters to learn shulchan archive, gemara etc. They didn’t have artscroll back then and no one wakes up, takes a gemara off a shelf,and learns, in a vacuum.

    As far as you’re point on the Maharal I have learned the malbim in Navi class and remember enjoying it very much. I find the Or Hachaim in chumash to be very similar to Chassidus as well. Both of them learned kabbola, so it seems their perushim are infused with pnimius HaTorah as well.

    However sichos on the Parsha, maamarim and rashi sichos I don’t think I’d find the like anywhere else. Rashi sichos taught me to appreciate the depth of Rashi and in general, to appreciate the precision and holiness of all of our chachomim to a level I wouldn’t have otherwise.

    #1442055

    Lubavitcher
    Participant

    We leanred stuff from the Gerrer Rebbe.
    I don’t know why this comment didn’t go thru before.

    #1442288

    David111
    Participant

    BY Meidel: This is not “ladies learning Gemara issue” it’s a feminist issue you seem to be struggling with ( based on your comments on this and other discussion in the CR). This is something that you’ll never satisfy yourself with ( even the secular world is not “perfect” – women get lower wages basically evewhere – even in Hollywood). Don’t devote your life fighting for this “cause”.
    God created men and women differently each with there own strengths and there own tafkid. I pray that you have already overcome your struggle and see the beauty of Yiddishkeit.

    #1442520

    benignuman
    Participant

    Joseph,

    It is not an issur for a woman to learn and it is not even an issur d’rabbanan to teach a woman. Rather Chazal said (according to R’ Eliezer) that a man should not teach his daughter (i.e. as a child) Torah because most women do not have the right type of mind for learning Torah sh’bal peh. However if she begins to learn on her own and he sees that she is among the capable minority, then she can be taught and she receives schar for her learning. This is meduyak from the Rambam (Talmud Torah 1:13), Tur (Yoreh Deah 246), and Shulchan Aruch (Yoreh Deah 246:6), and is mefurash in the Perisha on that Tur. This is how there were individual scholarly women throughout the generations.

    It is also meduyak in the Gemara in Nedarim (can’t look up the cite right now) that there were girls schools in Mishnaic times (although they may have just held like Ben Azai).

    #1442519

    Non Political
    Participant

    @cs

    Rashi sichos taught me to appreciate the depth of Rashi

    This is a very important point. It is critical to learn Rashi on Chumash with a super commentary that brings out the depth of Rashi.

    The Mizrachi, Maharal, and Livush are classics and their seforim are widely available. I wouldn’t try learning them all at the same time though. The Maharal is especially excellent but one has to get used to his unique writing style.

    #1442614

    JW in NJ
    Participant

    Sometimes, while my challot are rising, and I’ve ironed all my tichels, and I’ve misplaced my copy of Tzena Urena, I just need something to read. So I just grab a talmud and look at a few pages. Don’t worry though, I don’t actually remember anything I read in it.

    #1442611

    sabba8
    Participant

    BY Maidel
    It souinds like you seriously want to learn Gemara. if so, why waste your precious time arguing with people who think that you are off the wall or off the derech? Enough arguing. Go out and learn! Or alternatively, go to the website of the Virtual Bet Midrash where you can get all the shiurim which you want, given by first class talmidei chachamim, under the heading of “Talmud”.
    Life is too short to waste your time on pointless arguments.

    #1442647

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    @non political in high school we learned chumash bchevrusa grouped according to levels. My level focused on rashi, so we learned chumash rashi, and mefarshei Rashi such as mizrachi, gur aryeh (Maharal), sifsei if necessary as he usually summarises mizrachi, lvush haorah and baer basodeh.

    After we finished learning the Rashis with the mefarshei Rashi, we learned the other mefarshim such as Ramban or Hachaim, kli yakar Baal haturim.

    After all that, we learned the Chassidus on the topic, which brought out the underlying dynamic and its application today in our Avodas Hashem.

    The Rebbe in his rashi sichos brings out the way rashi operates, or klalei rashi. We started off learning these klalim so we would know what to look out for. It also taught us to appreciate the precision of each word.

    #1446196

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    @gaon in response to your request on where I got my ideas on the original issur of women learning, I looked up the topic.

    I realized that I synthesised two sources:
    Here are all the sources that forbid women’s learning :

    The Rambam writes in hilchos tt Sof perek aleph: the chachamim commanded that a person should not teach his daughter Torah because most womens minds aren’t focused, and through this they’ll learn to question (nichnas ba armumis). And whoever teaches her Torah is as if he teaches her immorality. But a person should teach his daughter chumash.”

    Now it should be noted that nowhere in this prohibition does it prohibit teaching halacha- in fact it was their obligation to teach their daughters hilchos nidda, tvilah, salting, issur yichud etc. as well as any mitzvos asei not bound by time as well as all lo saasei of Torah and chachamim.

    And nowadays at the end of golus, this would include dinim of korbanos etc.

    Tbc

    #1446198

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    This also includes learning Chassidus because it explains and helps internalise the mitzvos of emunas Hashem, yichud Hashem, ahavas and yiras Hashem which women are obligated in just as men.

    A woman who learns on her own anything she isn’t obligated in, receives schar for her learning and can also make the Brocha over Torah learning.

    Besides this, there were many unique women throughout history who were boki and great scholars in all Torah shbaal peh.

    Some examples :
    Bruriah
    Rachel Rashis daughter who wrote halacha and tshuvos for her father in his old age.

    The wife of rabbeinu Tam, miriam, who paskened shaalos uteshuvos.

    The chasam sofer learned with his daughter aggados chazal.

    I can give you more if wanted.

    There were also women who reviewed their husbands works and edited them

    The reason for the exceptions was because they learned in their own enough to show they qualified as exceptions to the majority of women whose minds aren’t focused

    #1446200

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    Also women are greatly encouraged to help their sins abd husbands learn:

    One of the main ways to encourage kids is to ask them what they learned in school, and they also increased their own knowledge this way.

    Similarly by asking their husbands what they learned and discussing it with them. In gemara sota it seems from the lashon that not only did the women accompany their husbands to the beis midrash and pick them up, but some would learn with them mikra and mishna.

    All the above is without any chiddush from nowadays.

    #1446209

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    The only chiddushim were:

    1) establishing girls schools because in the past girls learned from their mothers due to modesty. But since they were learning bad ideas outside the home, it was eis laasos laHashem, and gedolim endorsed the establishment of girls schools.

    2) in a similar way we can apply this also to learning gemara for girls, because since girls are anyway learning to question, armumis, not only is it ALLOWED to teach them Torah shbaal peh, but in line with the reasoning for the halacha, we MUST reach them Torah shbaal peh, and not just the REASONS for the halachos, but also the SHAKLA VTARYA (back and forth discussion), because by nature, both men and women enjoy this learning more, and in this way they will get their armumis, questioning skills, in the spirit of our holy Torah.

    #1446234

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    And we see practically that with the endorsement of gedolei Yisrael, that in the girls schools they aren’t only teaching halacha but also other inyanim of Torah and they should continue to do so and increase in this manner.

    There is more to be said on this topic (such as topics of learning that are meant more for women than men) but I hope I haven’t bored you. If you’d line me to continue, I will gladly. Hope this has cleared up any confusion.

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