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If someone considers herself Frum but ignores the prohibition of wearing short skirts or speaking Loshon Hora, even though she knows they are assur, I would think that she would be considered “not-Frum” technically.
No, because of what you just quoted on another thread:
?? ????? ???? ????? ??? ??? ?? ??? ??? ?????? ???? ????
So you mean “yes” not no. She is committing an aveira that she knows is an aveira.
I meant no, because she doesn’t know it’s an aveirah, she thinks it’s a chumra which the right wingers are claiming is obligatory.
Either that, or struggles with her yetzer hora.
Either way, she doesn’t lose the status of amisecha, unlike a m’challel Shabbos b’farhesya.
Person1, you simply don’t like the halacha and prefer the pop-culture (and non-Jewish) concept of live and let live. Therefore you summarily dismiss Rav Moshe zt’l, Rav Zilber zt’l, the Pri Megadim and YBL”C Rav Chaim shlit”a that someone aware of Orthodox Judaism is not a tinok shenishba. You even have issue with the Chofetz Chaim himself who describes an apikorus as:
??????- “???????? ???? ????? ?????… ?????? ??? ???? ?? ????? ???? ?? ????? ??? ????? ???…”
As you know the vast majority of non-frum Jews reject the divine authorship of the entirety of the Torah. Many Torah statings they outright reject in accordance with their understanding of modern mores (i.e. the impermissibility of toeiva and even the application of the death penalty for such activity, among many other rejected Torah portions.)
And the Chofetz Chaim tells us to mock apikorsum:
“???? ?????? ?????? ??? ??? ????????? ????? ?????? ??????? ??? ?????? ???? ??? ??????”.
Thus, this would apply to most non-frum Jews, specifically those that reject even one pasuk in the Torah as coming directly from G-d Himself.
And as Rav Chaim Brisker famously said, ah nebech apikorus is oich an apikorus; even if they don’t realize rejecting one word of Torah makes them an apikorus, it still makes them exactly that.
YY -“It’s well known that Rabbeinu Gershom banned reading others’ private mail. Are we allowed to read Wikileaks?”
The whole purpose of Wikileaks is to be Megaleh the Emes! Unfortunately we have seen how the DemonCrats are a bunch of liars!
If the Wikileaks were even about Jews, which they’re not, it would be Mutter because of Toieles!
School moment:
Rabbenu Gershom issued 3 decrees:
*Privacy – to be respected, specified mail, but presumably can include other things, too.
*Divorce cannot be forced. The banning of delivering a get to a woman against her will does not nullify the get, but it, as the violations of the other two decrees result in cheirem.
*Polygamy – banned. As noted earlier, this was to the constituents over whom Rabbenu Gershom had authority, which was the Ashkenazic community.
The actual cheirem was not intended to be extended past the Biblical year of 5000. It is continued today by consensus of the poskim of the generations. The Sephardic community was never issued those decrees, though by now, they have been accepted as universal practice.
My take on Wikileaks:
I don’t work for them, and could not justify the morality of snooping in someone else’s emails. But once they are public, there is no longer anything private about them, and I would read them if i had the time to devote to that.
“However, one who sins out of ignorance or temptation is in the category of amecha and it is forbidden to speak loshon hora about him” (Chofetz Chaim, A Lesson A day by Rav Shimon Finkelman and Rav Yitzchak Berkowitz, Day 14).
Nearly all (if not all) not-Frum Jews today fall under this category.
Many, many frum Jews do as well, so let’s not point fingers at people who are seemingly lax in hilchos tznius and hilchos lasho hara.
Also, there are specific halachic definitions of: frum, apikores, etc. –
we don’t arbitrarily define these categories. I don’t remember enough on the topic to quote sources but the definition of a frum Jew is based on shmiras shabbos, not on skirt length.
” *Divorce cannot be forced. The banning of delivering a get to a woman against her will does not nullify the get, but it, as the violations of the other two decrees result in cheirem. “
1. Suppose an Ashkenazic husband gave his wife a Get against her will. He violated the cherem. What is his penalty for doing so?
2. Spouse later the above husband regrets his action. How does he do teshuva to rectify violating the Cherem?
TLIK
” The Sephardic community was never issued those decrees, though by now, they have been accepted as universal practice. “
Vi shteit? Teimanim still practice polygamy. Even Sephardim don’t have a ban on it though most add a clause to their kesuba agreeing not to take a second wife. And regarding not being able to divorce an unwilling wife, what’s your basis to assert that Sephardim cannot do so?
Chacham Ovadia Yosef zt’l said Sephardim shouldn’t adhere to R”G’s cherem.
“Person1, you simply don’t like the halacha and prefer the pop-culture (and non-Jewish) concept of live and let live.”
It’s not coming from the pop-culture. Most Frum people hold this way. I’m not 100% sure of the source – I think it’s the Chazon Ish – but it is how most Frum people hold. There are plenty of sources to be found regarding how we are to relate positively to not-Frum people and judge them favorably. You may have a different opinion and you may even be able to find sources to back up your opinion (although I haven’t seen any of them yet) but that doesn’t mean that someone else’s opinion is coming from the pop-culture.
“I meant no, because she doesn’t know it’s an aveirah, she thinks it’s a chumra which the right wingers are claiming is obligatory.”
I was referring to people who do know, such as any Bais Yaakov graduate and any girl who attended just about any Orthodox Seminary.
“Either that, or struggles with her yetzer hora.
Either way, she doesn’t lose the status of amisecha, unlike a m’challel Shabbos b’farhesya.”
From the Chafetz Chaim, I quoted I don’t see why there would be a difference between somoene wearing a short skirt vs. someone who is mechalel Shabbos. He refers to someone who is over on something that everyone knows is assur. Adraba, she would be more likely to fit in that category. Everyone in her circles knows that it’s assur to wear short skirts, but in the circles that the not-Frum guy lives in, people don’t know that you are not allowed to be mechalel Shabbos.
What might keep her in the category of “amisecha” is the fact that she is doing it out of “taivah” not in order to rebel against Hashem. The same is true of the “mechalel Shabbos.”
So he is no worse than her, and maybe even better.
I just saw your quotes about “mechalilei Shabbos”. I will have to look them up when I have a chance.
lilmod, no one’s offered any specific maare makom of poskim or rabbonim that support what you’re claiming other than your assertion of thinking you might have heard the Chazon Ish held so. Without a specific citation that we can see what, or what not, the Chazon Ish stated you haven’t any support.
“but the definition of a frum Jew is based on shmiras shabbos, not on skirt length.”
As far as I know, the word “Frum” is a made up word and has no real meaning in Halacha. That is why I don’t understand the sentence, “One is allowed to speak Loshon Hora about not-Frum Jews”. In addition to the fact that according to the Chofetz Chaim, this is not true, one has to define his terms. The word Frum is not used anywhere in halachic literature.
In the quote that I brought from the Chofetz Chaim, he refers to people who are over on ANY halacha that is well-known in the community. I would think that this would refer to any girl who is considered “Frum” and had a Bais Yaakov or seminary education yet wears short skirts. I would think that it would not include most “not-Frum” people since people in their circles are not aware of halacha.
However, it seems to be referring to those who are sinning in order to rebel and not out of “taivah” or “ignorance” so it seems neither should be included.
I am not trying to be judgmental. What I am objecting to is the concept of putting a “not-Frum” Jew in a lower category than a “Frum” Jew who routinely ignores Halachos that he knows about. Why should the “not-Frum” uneducated Jew be considered worse from a halachic perspective than the Frum educated Jew who does not keep halacha?
In terms of many Frum Jews falling in this category, that was actually my point. However, many people do not. I could be wrong (I hope I’m not) but I don’t think that there is any clear cut halacha that I completely ignore. But maybe I’m wrong.
Joseph – true, I have to find the source. But meanwhile, I was just coming to Person1’s defense and pointing out that he probably has heard the same sources I have (either directly or second-hand) and that is where he is coming from. This is the opinion that is usually quoted and accepted in most of the Torah world and that is where he was coming from.
LU thanks for defending me, but I actually wasn’t responding to the topic under discussion. I was refering to Joseph eagearness at making sure everybody knows there is another group of people you are allowed to speak Lashon Hara about. Like people thinking that you can’t talk Lashon Ara about secular jews would be great ignorance on their part.
” making sure everybody knows there is another group of people you are allowed to speak Lashon Hara about. “
The Chofetz Chaim does that. See quotations above. In fact, the Chofetz Chaim said it is a “mitzvah” to do so regarding those people.
I think Person1’s point is that of all the Halachos of Loshon Hora, this is not the main one people need to know about, and he felt like you were b’davka choosing to educate people in this halacha, as opposed to all of the others. However, to be fair, you hadn’t really brought it up on purpose – it just came up in the course of the discussion.
To be honest, though, I wasn’t so happy with this discussion taking place on my Shmiras Halashon thread 🙁 and would have preferred that it take place elsewhere.
In any case, I am happy to debate the sources and will do so bli neder as soon as I have time and can find a way to locate them.
My point was (I’ll try again, my first post seems to have diappeared):
1) Someone who is Mechallel Shabbos B’farhesya has a different halachik status than someone who is over other aveiros (hilchos tznius, L”H etc.)
2) You can defend Jews who are not shomrei Torah U’mitzvos without making comparisons between them and Yidden who mostly are, but struggle in certain areas – the Avoda of Yitzchok was more difficult than the Avoda of Avraham – and only Hashem knows what goes on in an individual’s heart
The source for the fact that not-Frum people are considered Tinok Shenishba is in the Chazon Ish, Siman 2, S’eif 28. He also quotes the Chafetz Chaim as saying that all not-Frum people today are tinok shenishba.
In the Chazon Ish quoted above, he specifically quotes the Chofetz Chaim in Ahavas Chesed as saying that the concept of hating apikorsum does not apply today since they are “anusim” (acting out of coercion/tinok shenishba) and we are suppposed to sustain them and even be mechalel Shabbos to save their lives.
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