Women saying וציונו for a מצות עשה שהזמן גרמה.

Home Coffeeroom Bais Medrash Women saying וציונו for a מצות עשה שהזמן גרמה.

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  • #1485595

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Tosafos proves from Rav Yosef’s Hava Amina that women may make the Bracha on a time-based Mitzvah. However, Tosafos does not address the question he brought up: how can they say Vetzivanu of they aren’t Metzuvah?

    The first Teshuvah in Shaalos Utshuvos Min Shamayim also says that they may make the Brachah. Again, the question of Vetzivanu is not addressed. Instead, reasons are given why these Mitzvos are relevant for women as well.

    How many Pshatim and theories can we come up with and quote/explain?

    #1485613

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    The most obvious answer is . In davening when we say plural “Refaeinu…” “zachreinu Lechaim..” it is obvious we are referring to “us” as in collective jewry. not “us” as is Jewish men if youre male and Jewish womenl if you are female. “Vetzivanu” like all such words refers to collective jewry who as a group were commanded in Tzitzis

    #1485615

    laskern
    Participant

    I think that women have קיום מצוה not a חיוב מצוה just like ציצית that we make a ברכה on it.

    #1485617

    laskern
    Participant

    The GRA’s view is that matzah in the seven days except the first day is a
    קיום מצוה. The בעל המאור questions in ארבע פסחים why we don’t make a ברכה על אכילת מצה the whole seven days. He answers that we are not required to eat only matzas. If you eat matzos you are not eating eat it because it is matzos but because it is bread except the first day.

    #1485618

    laskern
    Participant

    Look at יביע אומר חלק א סימן כח about a long discussion about this. It is dependent on another argument between Tosfas and the Rambam if ברכה שאינה צריכה is a biblical or oral. See תוספות ראש השנה לג עמוד א on the top of the page.

    • This reply was modified 9 months, 2 weeks ago by  YW Moderator-25.
    • This reply was modified 9 months, 2 weeks ago by  laskern.
    #1485629

    laskern
    Participant

    See the the Sadei Chemed כללות מ סימן קלה to קלח in great detail about different mitzvos.

    #1485655

    laskern
    Participant

    ubiquitin, what you are saying is correct because Tosfas questions why don’t we say כל הפטור מהדבר ועושהו נקרא הדיוט when a person who is exempt from something and he does it is a simpleton? Tosfas answers that since the men have a requirement therefore the women can make a brochoh. The question is so what, but they are exempt? The answer according to you is that they are included in the group in the unity.

    • This reply was modified 9 months, 2 weeks ago by  YW Moderator-25.
    • This reply was modified 9 months, 2 weeks ago by  laskern.
    #1485657

    laskern
    Participant

    The MB 589:8 says that women are considered אינה מצווה ועושה, not directly commandment to do the mitzvos, who still get a reward for doing it.

    • This reply was modified 9 months, 2 weeks ago by  YW Moderator-25.
    • This reply was modified 9 months, 2 weeks ago by  laskern.
    #1485678

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    I seem to recall that sefardi women do not makea brocha on a mitzvas asay shehazman grama.

    #1485685

    laskern
    Participant

    iacisrmma, what you are saying is correct, they hold like the Rambam and the Mechaber O”CH 215:4, about saying unnecessary brochos which are biblical.

    • This reply was modified 9 months, 2 weeks ago by  YW Moderator-25.
    • This reply was modified 9 months, 2 weeks ago by  laskern.
    #1485692

    laskern
    Participant

    The Chacham Tzvi considered an Ashkenaz left in his will (if I remember correctly) that his descendant women should not make a brochoh on positive time dependent commandments.

    #1485702

    laskern
    Participant

    This might be related to another argument whether to make a barocho on Tefilin in Chal Hamoed. If we are exempt there could be the prohibition of bal tosif.

    #1485712

    laskern
    Participant

    How could the women make birchas haTorah (Mechaber 48:14)? They have to learn how to do the mitzvas they are responsible. The problem is that they don’t do it ממצות לימוד התורה, it is only a הכשר מצוה? I heard an answer from Rav Noach Eisic Oelbaum that birchas haTorah might not be a birchas hamitzva but a birchas hahoduah, a brocho of praise, which women also need to take part of.

    • This reply was modified 9 months, 2 weeks ago by  laskern.
    • This reply was modified 9 months, 2 weeks ago by  laskern.
    #1485705

    laskern
    Participant

    The Magen Avraham asks the question, how can the women say in bentchen על בריתך שחתמת בבשרנו, he answers that not having it because it is unnecessary, is like having it.

    #1485924

    MTAB
    Participant

    Command and us are broad terms.

    The mitzvos are on the Jewish people. He commanded us, the Jews.

    Why do you say bracha of lulav on chol moed? The torah didn’t command it? The rabbis did.

    The Torah didn’t command a bracha on water. The Rabbis did. We say commanded us.

    #1485935

    laskern
    Participant

    They ask the question, if uttering a brocho unnecessarily is biblical as mentioned above, how could the chachomim institute the making of a brocho in the first place? The answer that the Torah gave the strength to the chachomim through Lo Sosur to institute takonus what they felt necessary. A kal vochamer is biblical so they can learn out a kal vochamer from bentching. The Ritva in the beginning of Pesochim says that the chachomim made a brocho on mitzvas before its performance in order the the kavonoh be realized and therefore we don’t need any special kavonoh when doing mitzvos. The Nodei Beyhudah says that for this reason a שם יחוד is unnecesssary.

    • This reply was modified 9 months, 1 week ago by  YW Moderator-100.
    • This reply was modified 9 months, 1 week ago by  laskern.
    #1486030

    laskern
    Participant

    There are certain mitzvos that women accepted on themselves such as shofar and lulav. So, they make a brocho on them and you can blow shofar for them. They might be in the sukkah for the men תשבו כעין תדורו, sit in the sukkah the way you live at home.

    • This reply was modified 9 months, 1 week ago by  Y.W. Editor.
    • This reply was modified 9 months, 1 week ago by  laskern.
    #1486038

    laskern
    Participant

    When it comes to Krias Shema, women are exempt even though it is not time bound as we say it day and night. But, the Shagas Aryeh explains that there are two mitzvos day and night. One, only applies in the day the other one only at night. Therefore it is time dependent and women are exempt.

    • This reply was modified 9 months, 1 week ago by  Y.W. Editor.
    • This reply was modified 9 months, 1 week ago by  laskern.
    #1486169

    Todros Gimpel
    Participant

    The Rambam in Hilchos Brachos (Perek י”א Halacha ב) writes that you make a Birchas Hamitzvos on a Mitzvah that is a Reshus:
    כל מצות עשה שבין אדם למקום בין מצוה שאינה חובה בין מצוה שהיא חובה מברך עליה קודם לעשייתה

    #1486268

    Sechel HaYashar
    Participant

    Shulchan Aruch HaRav, Orach Chayim 17:3

    וּמִכָּל מָקוֹם, אֲפִלּוּ נְקֵבוֹת וַדָּאִים וְכֵן עֲבָדִים אִם יִרְצוּ לְהִתְעַטֵּף בְּצִיצִית וּלְבָרֵךְ – הָרְשׁוּת בְּיָדָן, כְּמוֹ שֶׁנּוֹהֲגִין בִּשְׁאָר מִצְוֹת עֲשֵׂה שֶׁהַזְּמַן גְּרָמָא, וִיכוֹלִין לוֹמַר “וְצִוָּנוּ לְהִתְעַטֵּף בַּצִּיצִית” אַף־עַל־פִּי שֶׁהֵן אֵינָן מְצֻוִּין, מִפְּנֵי שֶׁהָאֲנָשִׁים מְצֻוִּים עַל כָּךְ, וְגַם הֵן כְּשֶׁמְּקַיְּמִין מִצְוֹת שֶׁהֵם פְּטוּרִים מֵהֶם אַף־עַל־פִּי שֶׁאֵין לָהֶם שָׂכָר גָּדוֹל כִּמְצֻוֶּה וְעוֹשֶׂה, מִכָּל מָקוֹם קְצָת שָׂכָר יֵשׁ לָהֶם לָכֵן יְכוֹלוֹת הֵן לְבָרֵךְ עַל כָּל מִצְוֹת שֶׁהֵן פְּטוּרִין מֵהֶם, אִם עוֹשִׂין הַמִּצְוֹת כְּתִיקּוּנָן בְּעִנְיָן שֶׁהָאֲנָשִׁים יְכוֹלִים לְבָרֵךְ עֲלֵיהֶם.

    וּמִכָּל מָקוֹם הוֹאִיל וּמֶחֱזֵי כְּיֻהֲרָא – אֵין לָהֶם לְהִתְלַבֵּשׁ בְּצִיצִית, כֵּיוָן דְּגַם הָאֲנָשִׁים אֵינָם חַיָּבִים בְּמִצְוָה זוֹ אֶלָּא אִם כֵּן יֵשׁ לָהֶם טַלִּית בַּת אַרְבַּע כְּנָפוֹת, וְאֵינוֹ חוֹבַת הַגּוּף כְּמוֹ שׁוֹפָר וְלוּלָב שֶׁהַנָּשִׁים נוֹהֲגוֹת לְהַחְמִיר עַל עַצְמָן.

    Shulchan Aruch HaRav Orach Chayim 589:2:

    אַף עַל פִּי שֶׁהַנָּשִׁים פְּטוּרוֹת, מִכָּל מָקוֹם אִם רָצוּ לִתְקֹעַ בְּעַצְמָן הָרְשׁוּת בְּיָדָן. וְאַף עַל פִּי שֶׁהַתְּקִיעָה בְּיוֹם טוֹב בְּחִנָּם אֲסוּרָה מִדִּבְרֵי סוֹפְרִים, מִכָּל מָקוֹם כְּדֵי לַעֲשׂוֹת נַחַת רוּחַ לַנָּשִׁים הִתִּירוּ לָהֶן אִסּוּר קַל כָּזֶה ז שֶׁאֵין בּוֹ אֲפִלּוּ מִשּׁוּם שְׁבוּת גָּמוּר אֶלָּא מִשּׁוּם עוּבְדִּין דְּחֹל.

    וְכֵן אָדָם אַחַר שֶׁיָּצָא כְּבָר יְדֵי חוֹבָתוֹ מֻתָּר לִתְקֹעַ לָהֶן. וּמֻתָּר לְהוֹצִיא הַשּׁוֹפָר לִרְשׁוּת הָרַבִּים כְּדֵי לִתְקֹעַ לָהֶן.

    וּכְבָר נִתְבָּאֵר בְּסִימָן י”[ז]  שֶׁנָּהֲגוּ הַנָּשִׁים לְבָרֵךְ עַל כָּל מִצְוֹת עֲשֵׂה שֶׁהַזְּמַן גְּרָמָא, עַל כֵּן גַּם כָּאן יְבָרְכוּ הַנָּשִׁים לְעַצְמָן, אֲבָל אֲנָשִׁים לֹא יְבָרְכוּ לָהֶן אִם כְּבָר יָצְאוּ יְדֵי חוֹבָתָם וְאֵינָן תּוֹקְעִים רַק בִּשְׁבִיל הַנָּשִׁים, לְפִי שֶׁהִיא בְּרָכָה לְבַטָּלָה, שֶׁהֲרֵי הַנָּשִׁים בְּעַצְמָן אֵינָן חַיָּבוֹת בִּבְרָכָה זוֹ שֶׁיְּבָרֵךְ זֶה לְהוֹצִיאָן יְדֵי חוֹבָתָן בִּבְרָכָה זוֹ, אֶלָּא שֶׁלָּהֶן בְּעַצְמָן הָרְשׁוּת בְּיָדָן לְבָרֵךְ  מִטַּעַם שֶׁנִּתְבָּאֵר שָׁם, אֲבָל אַחֵר לָמָּה יְבָרֵךְ בְּחִנָּם.

    וְהָרוֹצֶה לִתְקֹעַ לַנָּשִׁים וּלְבָרֵךְ לָהֶן – יִתְקַע לָהֶן קֹדֶם שֶׁיִּשְׁמַע הַתְּקִיעוֹת בְּבֵית הַכְּנֶסֶת, אוֹ שֶׁיְּכַוֵּן בְּלִבּוֹ שֶׁלֹּא לָצֵאת יְדֵי חוֹבָתוֹ בִּתְקִיעוֹת שֶׁל בֵּית הַכְּנֶסֶת, דְּאָז יָכוֹל לְבָרֵךְ בִּשְׁבִיל עַצְמוֹ שֶׁעֲדַיִן לֹא יָצָא יְדֵי חוֹבָתוֹ. וְאַף עַל פִּי שֶׁהוֹלֵךְ לָהֶן לִתְקֹעַ בְּבָתֵּיהֶן וְחוֹזֵר לְבֵית הַכְּנֶסֶת וְשׁוֹמֵעַ הַתְּקִיעוֹת דִּמְעֻמָּד שֶׁעַל סֵדֶר הַבְּרָכוֹת – אֵינוֹ צָרִיךְ לַחֲזֹר וּלְבָרֵךְ עֲלֵיהֶם, וְאַף עַל פִּי שֶׁהִפְסִיק בַּהֲלִיכָה לְבֵית הַכְּנֶסֶת בֵּין בִּרְכָתוֹ לִתְקִיעוֹת אֵלּוּ, שֶׁהֲרֵי אֲפִלּוּ אִם הִפְסִיק בְּשִׂיחָה בֵּינְתַיִם אֵינוֹ צָרִיךְ לַחֲזֹר וּלְבָרֵךְ מִטַּעַם שֶׁיִּתְבָּאֵר בְּסִימָן תקצ”ב:

    #1488318

    Geordie613
    Participant

    laskern,
    Tefilin on chol hamoed cannot be baal tosif. Baal tosif is to wear 5 parshiyos, or 5 minim in the lulav, sukkah on simchas torah (Avi K – in chutz laaretz) because of 8 days instead of 7, etc. If you say shema before davening because of the zeman, and then say shema again during the zeman, tht’s not baal tosif either.

    #1491801

    Chortkov
    Participant

    Geordie613: If the rationale for not wearing tefillin is because Chol HaMoed is an Ois [working with the Nigleh world, not the Kabbalah], then Chol HaMoed would be equivalent to Shabbos and Yom Tov, and the Gemara Eruvin 95 is mefurash that one who wears tefillin on Shabbos lsheim mitzvah transgresses baal tosif.

    Performing any mitzvah outside its time frame is ba’al Tosif.

    In your example of Shema, one who says Shema twice during the zman isn’t oiver because repeating a mitzvah in its time is permitted (like shaking an esrog a second time) according to most rishonim. Saying Shema outside the zman with intent to be yotzei would constitute baal tosif. (R’ Shloime Bloch was מעיד that the Chofetz Chaim told him that saying Shema outside its zman is assur because of baal tosif. The Chazon Ish and Reb Moshe both disagreed, but only because Shema is always considered zmano of Limud HaTorah – כאילו קורא בתורה. I don’t really understand their sevara; bli neder I’ll post a link.)

    #1491805

    laskern
    Participant

    If we hold like the Mechaber 215:4 that saying a brocho unnecessarily is forbidden biblically, then if you say a brocho indicates that you are putting tefillin on for the mitzva sake. שלא בזמנו בעי כוונה you can violate bal tosif not at a time of the mitzva if you do it to perform a mitzva, but if you doing it to saisfy a safek, you should not make a brocho.

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