I'm not sure if I'm going overboard but something about the hats that some women are wearing these days seems problematic as far as Tznius goes.
Some women wear HUGE fancy ostentatious hats and it seems like its a way to attract others to look at them, its really hard not to notice women wearing those hats. To me it seems like these women are screaming "notice me, look at me!" Does anyone else think there's a problem with these hats?
I don't think the hats described scream "look at me" any louder than some
Borsalinos found on many men.
WIY, don't know where you live but here my bigger hats have been getting a rest; they seem a bit passe. Smaller is definitely in.
Guess I'm out of town so I don't realize that big is coming back...?
apushatayid:
"I don't think the hats described scream "look at me" any louder than some Borsalinos found on many men."
The obvious differences being that
1) almost all men wear hats (at least in my community)
2) the hats tend to be very similar: all black, around the same size, etc.
Therefore, a man wearing a hat would be fitting in, not saying "look at me".
Also, it's more of a problem for a woman to draw attention to herself then it is for a man.
"Loud" clothing and accessories draw attention away from the body.
That can be useful at times when you want to draw attention away from a facial pimple or some discolored teeth.
Josh31
If someone wears a loud hat then the face will be noticed as well because its the next place to look naturally.
So I guess your saying its ok, as long as everyones hat is yelling "look at me"?
OK, I'll spell this out for you.
Doing something is not saying "look at me" if everybody is doing the same thing. To say "look at me" means to draw attention to yourself, which is not normally or conductivity done by doing what everybody else is doing.
So, you are basicly saying, since everyone does it, its ok.
For the second time: No, I'm not "basicly saying since everyone does it its ok". I'm not sure exactly what you didn't understand about my previous post, so I'll try this one more time:
In order for something to attract attention, it needs to be out of the ordinary.
Therefore, doing something that is widely done is obviously not going to attract attention.
In other words: Everybody doing something attention grabbing doesn't make it OK, it simply makes it not attention grabbing anymore.
Again, what you are saying is, if everyone suddenly starts yelling "look at me" its no longer considered "out of the ordinary" and therefore, its considered "ok". It was considred outlandish and untznius before, but now that everyone wears it, it is no longer outlandish or untznius. That is what you are saying, no matter how you try to spin it.
I think this is an MO thing, Im yeshivish personally and don't see any frum ladies wearing hats at all.
Chazal and our Rabbonim are not concerned about large hats for women, that message should be loud enough for us.
If you want our daughters to be tuned in to the important issues of our holy religion, stop with the ridiculous.
As we learned recently in the daf: a gezerah instituted by a bais din may be retracted if the general population will not accept it. Recently, there were wedding takanas and the concert kol koreh; if g’zerahs are not accepted, they will not be reissued.
What's the next tznius ban you won't see: Hey look at ME; I’m giving $millions to tzadakah. Hey look at ME; I slave away at work and at home so that my husband can learn. Hey look at ME, I daven on the subway train. Hey look at ME; I wear a tichel down to my eyes. Hey look at ME; I won't eat at your home. A large hat is worn by frum women to cover their hair; leave the rest alone.
cherrybim
Funny, I find that the large fancy hat wearers are not from the group overly concerned with "covering their hair."
Furthermore, Tznius is one battle we can't afford to give up on. Sadly it seems like we live in a generation that wants to do what they want and for the most part couldn't care less and therefore any takanah no matter how necessary would fall under the umbrella of "Ain Yachol Laamod Bah."
"...are not from the group overly concerned with "covering their hair."
This should be more of a reason not to protest; let's be happy with partial victories, even sh’lo lishma, as is our tradition.
cherrybim:
"What's the next tznius ban you won't see: Hey look at ME; I’m giving $millions to tzadakah. Hey look at ME; I slave away at work and at home so that my husband can learn. Hey look at ME, I daven on the subway train. Hey look at ME; I wear a tichel down to my eyes. Hey look at ME; I won't eat at your home."
What on earth does any of this have to do with tzniyus?
Exactly my point; thanks.
Must've missed it.
Hat wearers include sefardi women and even yeshivish women who can't afford sheitlach.
"Hat wearers include sefardi women and even yeshivish women who can't afford sheitlach."
Often, one sheitel yells "look at me" louder than ten hats put together.
Tzippi
There's no problem with the hats chassidish women wear those aren't the ones I'm referring to. I mean the gaudy flashy expensive ones that no woman or man misses to notice.
"I daven on the subway train."
LOL, I ALWAYS do that.
"There's no problem with the hats chassidish women wear"
My first reaction when seeing this thread was: Really? Phishing much?
I dont see anything wrong with hats, and if thats the way you want to cover your hair, enjoy!
It seems to me that your problem (WIY) with the hats are the ostentatious ones. In which case, yes, I have seen PLENTY of chassidish woman with ridiculous looking hats.
Last time ladies' hats were in fashion I don't recall any hubbub.
The thread should be renamed: Emerging Fashion - Tznius?
Women have a natural tendency to want to look unique.
Such a tendency should be guided in a direction away from real Pritzus and in a direction that does break the bank.
Hats achieve both goals, as the most expensive hat (unless it has precious stones embedded in it) costs a fraction of a good Sheitel.
However, pascha bchochma hit the nail on the head - they make women look too much like the Modern Orthodox!!!
To Josh31: thanks, I needed that ;-)
My wife wears hats all the time -- except when she is wearing headscarves or snoods. None are expensive.
"However, pascha bchochma hit the nail on the head - they make women look too much like the Modern Orthodox!!!"
Pascha also wrote.
"I think this is an MO thing, Im yeshivish personally and don't see any frum ladies wearing hats at all."
Is Pascha implying Modern Orthodox are not frum? Am I the only one who a) infers this implication amd b) is bothered by it?
apushetayid: I'm sorry - I absolutely did NOT intend to imply that and actually know a number of extremely frum MO people. (right-wing YU girls who went to BYs)
I certainly hope that anyone who would think that I implied MO are not frum, would be bothered, and apologize if it sounded like that.
What I meant was, yeshivish/ chassidish women don't generally wear hats. It's generally an MO thing. So I am not aware of this problem since I am yeshivish and live in a yeshivish community. I don't see anyone wearing hats and if they do wear hats they seem to be covered.
Pascha b., you left our sefardi women.
Pascha. For wrongly suspecting ýou and not judging you favorably I owe you a bracha. To paraphrase birchas hamazon. Hashem should bentsh you Bakol, Mikol, Kol.
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