Working boys and shidduchim

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  • #1462857

    Schneubs
    Participant

    I’m a 21 and a half year old bochur.
    I was in a mainstream yeshiva for the past 3 years.
    I left after Succos this year to start working towards a parnassah.
    I am currently taking a course in computers.

    Marriage is something that is constantly on my mind.
    I am very makpid on davening with a minyan.
    I am one of the very few bochurim in my yeshiva that never paid a single knaas.
    I believe I have excellent middos (if I may say so).
    I wear a white shirt and black pants.

    Why am I afraid?
    Because learning doesn’t come naturally to me.
    I get virtually no enjoyment from it.
    It just doesn’t flow.

    I would like to know any thoughts/experience people have had in regards to shidduchim
    with those in similar situations.

    How many people would consider a shidduch with someone in this category.
    Is it really going to be impossible, because I am not good in learning.
    I feel very nervous about this.
    Chizuk would be much appreciated.

    Thank you

    #1462871

    Joseph
    Participant

    Don’t worry, you’ll have no problems in shidduchim. The only problem you might have is picking from too many choices looking for you.

    #1462902

    MTAB
    Participant


    Don’t worry, you’ll have no problems in shidduchim. The only problem you might have is picking from too many choices looking for you.”

    nice of you to encourage, but what’s that based on?

    #1462906

    Joseph
    Participant

    Ruach Hakodesh.

    #1462910

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    Was the OP meant to be a poem?

    #1462916

    Schneubs
    Participant

    NO, definitely not a poem.
    Although I am good at making grammen.
    But that’s neither here nor there.

    #1462922

    Phil
    Participant

    Schneubs,

    From the way you describe yourself it seems like you have yiras shamayim and good midos. You did some serious introspection, realized that full-time learning is not going to be your path to success and embarked on a plan to support yourself. Good for you!

    I’m sure you realize that as difficult as learning is for you, it’s something you must do on a daily basis. Both for the knowledge you need to function out in the world as a committed Jew, as well as to keep yourself on the “straight and narrow”. Learning something you enjoy, arranging a chavrusa or attending an engaging shiur will help you to do so. Along with davening with a minyan, it’s also something that the kind of girl you want to marry will insist upon.

    Doing so will give you confidence in yourself and shidduchim should go well for you. There may be some shadchanim or girls or their mommies that look at you askance. Don’t pay any attention them, they’re not worthy of you. Keep davening for your zivug and do what you’re supposed to be doing. IY”H, you will find her at the right time!

    #1462909

    Schneubs
    Participant

    My thoughts exactly MTAB.

    I’m really looking for insights, although encouragement helps too!

    #1462942

    Joseph
    Participant

    Schneubs: What I told you in my first response is true.

    #1462947

    Schneubs
    Participant

    I hope it is.
    But do you have any firsthand experience in this regard?

    #1462948

    Schneubs
    Participant

    And what experience do you have?
    (I’m looking for more than a yes and no answer)

    #1462954

    MonseyIma
    Participant

    My daughter is a very good and frum 20 year old Bais Yacov girl looking for exactly this type of boy . I find that when going through shadchanim it’s not easy to find these boys because the very good boys that are thinking just like u are scared to say it and afraid to compromise their prospects, of finding a good aidel girl. It’s very frustrating I wish that would all be open and honest with each other and admit that just because a bochur is not able to sit and learn after a few years of Beis medrash or less doesn’t mean that these boys are not good enough or not frum enough… (of course at the very least girls and their parents want to see that a working boy set aside sometime for learning on a daily basis) don’t be worried because there are lots of girls that appreciate that a bochur wants to and has the ability to eventually support a family … you will be fine Hatzlocha Raba!!

    #1462960

    Joseph
    Participant

    Wow, not only am I right, we’ve already identified a potential shidduch just four hours after the OP went live!! After all that worrying about how hard it would be! Mods, can we put the mother of the girl in touch with the bochor?

    #1462965

    MTAB
    Participant

    There’s saving the world and saving yourself. The question is can you find yourself a nice girl even if there’s a heavy leaning in the frum world towards the kollel life, which is amazing since you need an income of around $100,000 just to get by today. I believe that generally when they talk about boys having lists its learning boys. And I imagine this is your fear. But I have to think that there are decent girls out there who have seen the family mortgage bill or rent check and say, wait a minute. We need parnassah. You just need to find one. Just one. Doesn’t matter right now what happens to all the other guys who want to be baal habatim. You can help them once you are married.

    You know who you are and your values are good. Just get out there and start looking. There’s a lot of hashgacha in these things. Have you started yet – shadchanim, friends, online, events? Do you have a dating resume? It helps people to remember you and to think they have enough info to take action.

    Sometimes the fear with the non-full-time learners is that they aren’t very frum. And oftentimes this is true. So let it be known that you are a stark baal habayis as you have done here.

    On the learning point, R’ Avigdor Miller suggests taking one small piece of Chumash, Mishnah, Gemara, whatever, and going over it many times. It’s like food where the taste comes out when you chew it. Today there’s such an emphasis on covering lots of ground that many people get lost. Also, many teachers overcomplicate the material in an attempt to either make it exciting or to show off. Says Rabbi Miller, they are destroying the boys! Study simply if you want. Also, are you comfortable with Hebrew? It might help to study the grammar, study it as a language. Also, study what interests you. Maybe there’s a topic, start with the topic rather than page 2 of Gemara x.

    Feel good about yourself. Our job in this life is Torah and commandments, serving Hashem. Koheles says – the sum of the matter is to fear God and to keep His commandments. He doesn’t say the sum of the matter is to learn Torah. Yes, Torah is a commandment too and we need to study to learn what to do. But a baal habayit is chashuv. So chashuv.

    #1462963

    Me12345
    Participant

    Schneubs and monseyima maybe we should get the ywn moderator to be the shadchan. Sounds like a match made in heaven !!!

    #1462987

    Schneubs
    Participant

    Joseph
    Thank you for your comment.

    At this point, I haven’t started dating yet.
    The only thing really holding me back from starting is having a real job.
    I know that my parents are not going to be able to support me financially.

    #1462968

    Shopping613 🌠
    Participant

    Hi, girl in shidduchim here.
    You sound like a great guy, if I was redt it to you, I’d find out a few things. For one, I know how important Torah is, and I understand not everyone is cut out to learn, but I’d be wary of the fact you don’t learn at all. Yes, not everyone is cut out for even 1 3/4 hur seder, but no daily chavrusa for an hour learning at your own pace? Or shuir at night? Not even daf yomi? What about a chabura? A mussar shuir? A shuir that isn’t such in depth learning? There’s so much out there, Torah is what makes a man closer to God and gives him life. Maybe the tradition seder isn’t for you, but not learning at all on a daily basis in any way, shape, or form?

    What are you doing to stay true to your ideals? To have the right mindset and values in yourself? To keep growing spiritually? This worries me, being that you are still very young, although I’d be wary if you were 25 too, the fact that you are 21 and learning isn’t really in your life at all doesn’t make me run, but rather want/need to get more information.

    BESIDES for the learning, if you had valid reasons, and it turns out you are doing SOMETHING, ANYTHING in the learning/growing department. Even learning a sefer with a friend for a half an hour a day, I’d look at your middos and your hashkafah.

    For me, I’m looking for someone who wants to stay in Israel, who fits into the chareidi society and doesn’t have issues with it. Someone honest, real to themselves about where they are and what they need to do, have a rabbi they talk to, don’t watch movies, don’t have a smartphone, have filtered internet, etc.

    Also I don’t speak yeshivish, what is knaas?

    #1462995

    DovidBT
    Participant

    Also, study what interests you.

    Rebbi said: A person can learn Torah [successfully] only from the area [i.e,. only within the topic] that his heart [currently] desires. For the verse says: [Psalms 1:2] ‘But his desire is in the Torah of Hashem.’
    (The commentary adds that “According to Meiri, Rebbi speaks of where to begin [a session of] study.”)
    Avodah Zarah 19a

    #1462984

    Schneubs
    Participant

    Thank you MonseyIma.

    I agree that there needs to some learning on a daily basis.
    It hurt so much being in yeshiva, watching many of my friends
    learning and enjoying it…

    I’ve always known that learning full time was not for me.
    It’s accepting that there’s nothing wrong with me that’s harder sometimes.

    #1463006

    MalachOfCholent
    Participant

    “Also I don’t speak yeshivish, what is knaas?”- i think he meant fines for driving etc.

    #1463008

    Schneubs
    Participant

    I really appreciate the positive responses. Please keep them coming!

    Be”H my goal is to set up a seder with a chavrusa on a daily basis
    that’s enjoyable.
    I think straight out Halacha I would enjoy more.

    If anyone knows of any leads in IT (computer field) I’m very interested.
    My PCS course ends in June, Be”H.

    #1463007

    MalachOfCholent
    Participant

    schneubs, you sound like a great guy i agree with what shopping613 said and i also think you don’t need to worry about shidduchim, you just need to be yourself and be proud of yourself and your accomplishments, even though its hard watching people enjoy what you can’t and is so important, just make sure you have a true derech in judaism with a rav to keep you safe.
    i’m having it hard myself deciding between full time learning and parnassah, i don’t know yet what i’m gonna do but i truly admire both sides- the one who can sit and learn with bitachon that hashem can send him parnassah and those like you who recognize their abilities, are committed to hashem and his torah and take upon themselves the parnassah.
    good luck with everything your trying to achieve now and shidduchim when your ready.

    #1463026

    MTAB
    Participant

    you haven’t started dating?
    time to start, then you’ll be able to answer your own questions

    #1463024

    Schneubs
    Participant

    P.S. Recently I have been trying to learn some Halacha on a daily basis.
    I also have been doing shnayim mikra.

    #1463023

    MTAB
    Participant

    ” but no daily chavrusa for an hour learning at your own pace? Or shuir at night?”

    There’s no requirement to have a chavrusa. When I was dating I met all these girls who thought learning meant having a chavrusa. I don’t know where they get that. You can just study on your own, listen to recordings, whatever. It’s all good.

    #1463020

    Schneubs
    Participant

    Shopping613, thank you.
    I agree.

    #1463022

    Schneubs
    Participant

    By the way, in regard to knaasim,
    I was referring to monetary fines from the yeshiva,
    to those that came late to shachris.

    #1463155

    Schneubs
    Participant

    It’s so hard to speak to people about this.
    The yetzer hara tells you that somethings wrong with you.
    You must not have enough Yiras Hashem, or else you’d want to learn…
    It feels so hard when everyone’s talking in learning, and it’s basically all above your head.
    Seeing people quote gemaras in their sleep etc…

    It all feels so overwhelming.

    Be”H I hope on putting more effort into my learning.
    Listening to shiurim, Halacha, Mishnayos etc.

    Thank you to everyone for your responses.
    Please keep them coming.

    Thank you

    #1463148

    Phil
    Participant

    “It hurt so much being in yeshiva, watching many of my friends learning and enjoying it…”

    Schneubs.

    The fact that this hurt speaks volumes about you. Commit yourself to learning daily, daven for “Veha’arev”, sweetness in Torah and it will be granted to you. What your friends are doing may or may not be the right path for them but you have to do what works for you and be happy with it. Sometimes, the best bochurim in yeshiva don’t consider that full-time learning may not be for them because they enjoy it so much and are doing what everyone else is doing. When they finally do realize and are suddenly burdened with the heavy yoke of earning a livelihood, bitterness sets in and they never learn a word. Having a chavrusa is helpful because knowing that he’s waiting for you pushes you to learn, even though you may be exhausted from school or from work.

    If you don’t feel the push to start dating right now, you may want to finish your courses and start working before you do so. This will set you on your chosen path and help you to really feel confident in yourself, which will make it easier to find your life-partner. You can see that the entire YWN Coffee Room is rooting for you and wishes you much hatzlacha!

    #1463179

    Schneubs
    Participant

    Honestly, there is nothing I’d like to do more than start shidduchim now.
    But I feel the smartest thing is to have a viable parnassah before.
    I don’t have a fallback option like others do.
    I know that I can’t be supported financially by my parents.

    I’m from out of town, and went to an established yeshiva out of town.
    I was actually the only bochur from my city.
    To get home I would rent a car.
    I had to pay for that myself (occasionally my parents did give me something towards that)
    I earned money by checking the eruv and learning mishnayos with an elementary school boy.

    I don’t expect (or really want) to be supported by my in-laws.

    Hence, I feel the need to have a parnassah first.

    #1463196

    Joseph
    Participant

    Do not wait for a job to start shidduchim or to get married.

    #1463197

    Lubavitcher
    Participant

    isint Knass a punishment.?

    #1463198

    Phil
    Participant

    “But I feel the smartest thing is to have a viable parnassah before.”

    Schneubs,

    You’re a very smart guy. They’re going to be lining up around the block to date you!

    #1463216

    Shopping613 🌠
    Participant

    I don’t know why girls always assume there needs to be a chavrusa involved, lol. Maybe because girls are social creatures, or it’s just mainstream to hear about chavrusas?

    In any case, MalachOfCholent is correct, you need to be prouder of your accomplishments. Davka like I said, I’m looking for someone real and honest, and on some level a bochur like you interests me MORE than someone in full time learning, why?

    Because I can see you made decisions. You are doing whatever you are doing because you truly want to, you are being emesdik to your true self, when someone tells me he is learning full time, I don’t know if he is doing is because he wants to and is really there, or because someone else is paying tuition and rent and he can get a good catch that way.

    The right girl will appreciate the choices you have made, the middos you have, etc. Don’t worry about it, you only gotta marry one.

    My parents aren’t going to support me at all, so just like you, it sounds kinda scary, because isn’t that what people look at? Money and yichus and prominent schools?

    I’m also originally from OOT, and we don’t have money, frum family, or much yichus, but Hashem will worry for my zivug…

    #1463227

    Schneubs
    Participant

    Just finished a half hour of learning Halacha. 🙂

    #1463237

    Modesty
    Participant

    Shopping613 we’ll said

    #1463238

    Schneubs
    Participant

    Thank you Shopping613.

    Honesty is very important to me.
    I’m looking for someone that I can be completely myself around them.
    Someone who I feel I can confide in.
    I’m usually on the quieter side.
    I’m definitely not the life of the party type at all.
    In yeshiva, I was one of the first to go to sleep.
    I don’t think I’ve really ever had a desire to stay up late like most guys seem to do.
    Early to bed, early to rise, I guess?
    Comes with being a Yekki.
    Along with nightmares of being late to davening.
    (I actually have had nightmares like that)

    #1463298

    Shopping613 🌠
    Participant

    Don’t worry, I’m sure you’ll find a great girl.
    You just worry about what Hashem wants from you.

    #1463336

    Schneubs
    Participant

    I have had hardships and difficulties in my life.
    Overall, I think I’m doing pretty well, B”H.

    #1463342

    MTAB
    Participant

    ==
    It’s so hard to speak to people about this.
    The yetzer hara tells you that somethings wrong with you.
    You must not have enough Yiras Hashem, or else you’d want to learn…==

    This equation of Judaism with learning is a new thing. Last time I checked there were 613 mitzvos. Sometimes I think this overemphasis on learning is a trick by the satan to get us to care much less about mitzvos.

    Once you are working with kids you won’t have much time for learning anyway.

    #1463350

    MTAB
    Participant

    you know what you need
    parnassah and marriage
    that’s enough to worry about for now
    you might find you’ll enjoy learning more once you do it in a new way
    you likely were just turned off by the style you were exposed to
    there are many ways of going about it

    #1463434

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    This equation of Judaism with learning is a new thing.

    It actually is quite an old thing. The early chassidim de-emphasized learning, but limud HaTorah is at the core of Yiddishkeit.

    #1463478

    MTAB
    Participant

    ==It actually is quite an old thing. The early chassidim de-emphasized learning, but limud HaTorah is at the core of Yiddishkeit.==

    i didn’t say it wasn’t core
    but the trend today is that it’s the only thing
    when i read the rishonim i heard all about character middos , mitzvos, humility ,etc
    that’s not how people talk today

    #1463527

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    There’s no such thing as overemphasis on learning. What you meant to say, I guess, is underemphasis on midos, etc.

    #1463528

    Schneubs
    Participant

    Thank you again to everyone who has commented.
    I already have a lot to think about.

    But please keep the thoughts/advice/suggestions etc coming!

    Is there anyone who personally feels/felt the same way?
    I don’t think it’s just me.

    #1463609

    MalachOfCholent
    Participant

    i know a few people like you personally, family and acquaintances who have had this struggle and right now are working, most of them make sure to learn or go to a shiur every day.
    i also know a lot who are full time learners, love it and keep telling me about their miracles with parnassah,
    i know both sides and understand both sides.

    #1463664

    Schneubs
    Participant

    Thanks MalachofCholent.

    Here’s the big question:

    Who here is looking for the same thing in a shidduch?
    (either themselves or someone in immediate family)
    We’ve heard from one mother, and one girl who might

    Anybody else?

    It’s one thing to say that there are those that are, and quite another
    to say that you are.

    #1463654

    MTAB
    Participant

    –Is there anyone who personally feels/felt the same way?–

    i’m about 40 years older than you so i can’t see i feel it now, but i believe there’s a tremendous problem in the yeshiva world today and that is an overemphasis on torah study. yeah, i said it. i have been involved in shiduchim and i do meet all kinds of girls who just insist on a kollel guy, that’s how they are trained, and when people say there are more girls than guys, what they are reflecting is that there are more girls who want kollel guys than guys who want to be that. of course, it’s easier to want it than to be it, plus the girls, who mostly want to live comfortably think the money will fall from the sky

    i do feel as a baal habayis that i’m looked down on by the learning community
    but i have learned to see that as their ignorance

    as for frustrations with learning, i have had that but found the solution was to try new approaches as i have mentioned

    #1463668

    MalachOfCholent
    Participant

    “Who here is looking for the same thing in a shidduch?
    (either themselves or someone in immediate family)
    We’ve heard from one mother, and one girl who might”- i am.

    #1463673

    Shopping613 🌠
    Participant

    MTAB: I’m not expecting money to fall from the sky. Most people I KNOW who are in kollel/looking for kollel, know what they are getting into. They are having basic bills (if even THAT) paid by parents, getting one sheitel, and don’t really buy any clothing, jewlery, and or makeup for the first few years of marriage.

    Their kids don’t get dressed in luxury clothing, and sometimes the electricity goes off or there’s no food in th house at the end of the month.

    I

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