Yasher Koach to Rabbi Horowitz of Project Yes, for protecting and not punishing

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  • #607199

    chalilavchas
    Member

    If we’d be as busy checking for offenders as checking for bugs…

    We go to Shiurim to learn how to carefully check for bugs. Why not have Shiurim on how to check for and remove — offenders? Many offenders roam the streets freely, with our knowledge, and are protected in the US and abroad. Why are we more careful to check for and remove bugs?

    Is there a Torah prohibition to check for and remove molesters/offenders, that Im not aware of?

    Somehow, many of us have no problem being Motzei Shem Ra on victims and allow them to be intimidated. Is this a Mitzvah? Usually when theres smoke, there has been fire.

    What message are we sending our youth and young adults who are aware of this position in our community? Isnt this hypochrisy souring them on frumkeit? Is being more careful to remove bugs than perps, and leave innocents in harm’s way, the Torah way?

    Yasher Koach to Rabbi Horowitz of Project Yes, for protecting and not further punishing victims! May he be Gezunt un Shtark!

    #912424

    ZeesKite
    Participant

    I don’t know you, or about you, but I wouldn’t poke fun or belittle mitzvohs, or aveiros. No. I wouldn’t mock the precautions one must take lest one chalila be oiver on 6 aveiros per bite. No, not something to mock, belittle, poke fun. No. No s’char for that. At all.

    You do have an excellent point about the abuse, the attempt to hush things, and the effort being done to combat that. That is serious. Pretty serious. But no need to belittle one of HaShem’s special mitzvohs for another.

    #912425

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    The abuse coverup IMO is the BIGGEST Chilul Hashem and the greatest threat to charedi Judaism and its fairly easy to fix.

    In general society abusers are considered the lowest of the low, nobody like abusers, just look at Penn State or the Catholic Church. Harboring them not hurts more people, It hurts Rabbinic leadership and does cause people not to listen and not respect Rabbenim. People dont respect abusers and they dont respect people who habor abusers.

    Every averiah caused by someone who went OTD because of abuse and rabbinic coverup of the abuser is a stain on the community

    #912426

    ready now
    Participant

    A person cannot be accused, tried, and punished without two simultaneous valid witnesses. Therefore: Vigilance Vigilance, Vigilance.

    #912427

    chalilavchas
    Member

    Zeeskite,

    I don’t know you, or about you, but I wouldn’t poke fun at me, because Im not attempting to poke fun at any Mitzvah at all. I am very into checking for bugs and constantly learning new things about specific produce.

    My main attempt is to call attention to Rabbi Horowitz’s unique bravery, which I dont recall our community having had the likes of, EVER, among members of Right Wing Rabbinate! Very courageous indeed.

    Please dont focus on a sentence here or there. I think checking for and ridding our community of molesters should be equally important, not more important than any other Mitzvah. Strangely, ridding our community of molesters has been very low on the totem pole of importance.

    #912428

    ZeesKite
    Participant

    If that is how you’d like to phrase it, by all means. I just didn’t like the tone used (4 times) to downplay the hilchos bdikas tolaim – I think there’s a portion of shulchan aruch on that. If you didn’t intend to, then I beg your pardon.

    Now why it’s “very low .. of importance”, I think that being that not everyone is in position of power, know-how, courage, not everyone is suited for that job. That’s a job for people of stature – sanhedrin are commanded to root out and rid out evil doers, not anyone and everyone can take the law into one’s own hands.

    However EVERYONE is commanded not to eat forbidden foods.

    And as you can see, I haven’t made it to the little leagues yet.

    #912431

    DaasYochid
    Participant

    Why do people assume that it’s of little importance to the community? Because they aren’t privy to the investigations and precautions taking place without publicity?

    Just because you don’t know something, doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.

    #912432

    farrocks
    Member

    Daas: The people that spout that it is of little importance and/or the community does little about it, are the typical anti-semites. Granted these anti-semites claim they don’t hate all Jews, just hate certain categories of Jews (i.e. chareidim), but they are the typical self-hating anti-semites nevertheless that hate and lie simply for the sake of hating and lying.

    #912433

    funnybone
    Participant

    “Usually when there’s smoke, there has been fire.”

    Is that enough of a reason to besmirch a person? Because of “usually”? I’m not saying that there shouldn’t be an investigation, but the reason why you aren’t privy to all the info is b/c we don’t believe in publicizing every child’s accusations! (Yes, I know of a child who made an accusation-I’ll leave out the details- that turned out to be untrue.)

    I do believe that parents need to teach their children to beware. I do believe that schools need to make sure that students aren’t left alone with teachers and I do believe that every accusation should be taken seriously! But I also believe that every accusation shouldn’t be spread across the NY Times before we ascertain that the child is telling the truth!

    #912435

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Now why it’s “very low .. of importance”, I think that being that not everyone is in position of power, know-how, courage, not everyone is suited for that job. That’s a job for people of stature – sanhedrin are commanded to root out and rid out evil doers, not anyone and everyone can take the law into one’s own hands.

    However EVERYONE is commanded not to eat forbidden food

    Which is a bigger Chilul Hashem, The Mayor of NYC eating in an obvious treif restaurant or a court case currently occuring in Brookyln.

    #912436

    chalilavchas
    Member

    The people that spout that it is of little importance and/or the community does little about it, are the typical anti-semites. Granted these anti-semites claim they don’t hate all Jews, just hate certain categories of Jews (i.e. chareidim), but they are the typical self-hating anti-semites nevertheless that hate and lie simply for the sake of hating and lying.

    Does it occur to you that the hundreds of victims and all people who support the victims, are just as Charedi?

    Which is a bigger Chilul Hashem, The Mayor of NYC eating in an obvious treif restaurant or a court case currently occuring in Brookyln.

    My feelings exactly!

    #912438

    yehudayona
    Participant

    I’m with funnybone. I know of a case where a child made accusations that were untrue, and certain people in leadership positions, possibly feeling guilty because they had dropped the ball in an earlier abuse case, assumed the child was telling the truth. It’s just as bad to assume the accused is a molester as to assume the child is making it up. All these cases need to be investigated thoroughly by unbiased authorities.

    #912440

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    Certainly insisting that there is no problem eating tolaim is a greater chilul Hashem than a trial in Brooklyn.

    Considering that chilul Hashem is based on causing other to be oiver on aveiros.

    Also tweeting from the trial is a huge chilul Hashem, in my opinion.

    And one has to wonder about someone who’s job is fundraising just to fund his own pocket. Yet using an organizations name and exemption to do so. When this person is providing no benefits for such organization.

    #912441

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Is that enough of a reason to besmirch a person? Because of “usually”?

    Chazal/Dovid Hamelech were Mesaken guidelines in to avoid situations such as in this trial (i.e. Hilchos YICHUD!). If this person chose not to follow Chazal, that is good reason to say “when there is smoke, there is fire”.

    #912442

    funnybone
    Participant

    I don’t have the details of this trial, but not every time that a Rebbe/Morah speaks to a child in an office (which others can enter at any time) is there a “good reason to to say when there is smoke, there is fire.” This issue is true for the tutors and specialties as well, they all need some privacy yet we need to have people entering and leaving at will. Some children might still have accusations and they need to be taken seriously, although not as an absolute truth.

    #912443

    ready now
    Participant

    Do not accuse an innocent- to do so is a very grave sin.

    #912444

    Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    ready now – I think that when abuse charges are first made we may be unsure if they occurred or not. WHILE I am in the mode of “not knowing the facts” or “not being 100% certain” I am welcome to refrain from assuming guilt but I would have NOOOOOO business running fundraisers and crying innocent. NOT ONE person, aside of the abused, knows for certain that this molester DID NOT do what he is accused of. They have less PROOF of his innocence than there is “proof” of his guilt. They are jumping on bandwagons and should be ashamed of themselves. And any of them who are privy to information that they are sitting on, I am comforted knowing Hashem is Just.

    #912445

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    He is an innocent man now , because he hasnt been proven guilty “yet”.

    Besides his defense is not im innocent, but rather She caused it

    #912446

    ready now
    Participant
    #912447

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    Syag,

    Your comment is silly in that you assume that a person has no right to defense. I don’t know this case nor am I following it, but it is quite likely that there a goodly number if people who know this man. And they believe they know him well and know that he could not have done such a thing. They may also know the other side and believe that they are completely likely to have made this up for whatever reason.

    In that case it is understandable why he had supporters who are doing what they can to help him.

    #912449

    chalilavchas
    Member

    nishtdayngesheft

    …..I don’t know this case nor am I following it, but it is quite likely that there a goodly number if people who know this man. And they believe they know him well and know that he could not have done such a thing.

    1-Since when does reputation have anything at all to do with innocence or guilt? In the first well known frum molestation case of many years ago, involving a psychologist, he was the most admired and respected person in the world. Absolutely no one believed it of him, until the accusations started raining on him from all over.

    2-It seems that there are many complaints/accusations from unrelated people, with this case as well.

    #912450

    ShalomToYou
    Member

    America’s obsession with being anti-child abuse stems from their worship of youth. Unfortunately this is becoming more common in the Jewish world as well. Everyone should take it easy. The greatest threat to Chareidi Judaism?? Give me a break.

    #912451

    shmoel
    Member

    The victim in this case is the falsely accused.

    #912452

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Abusers must be kicked out of the community like an insect on a vegetable.

    If there was one insect in your lettuce would you eat it assuming you knew it was there and couldnt remove it?

    There must be ZERO tolerance for abusers

    #912453

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    There are no witnesses to any supposed infringement of yihud.

    Then it should be easy to prove his innocence, as at all sessions (which he agrees he did have) there was an additional female (Yichud is with 2 males as well). I await the proof.

    #912454

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Then it should be easy to prove his innocence, as at all sessions (which he agrees he did have) there was an additional male (Yichud is with 2 females as well). I await the proof.

    (Sorry for the misspeak)

    #912455

    chalilavchas
    Member

    Anyone who was familiar with the accused’s goings-on, didnt they question the Yichud problem? Locked doors??? Sessions that lasted hours? How didnt anyone think this was problematic?

    #912456

    DaasYochid
    Participant

    GAW,

    I have no knowledge of this case, but why do you assume the burden of proof, even regarding yichud, is on the defense?

    #912457

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I have no knowledge of this case, but why do you assume the burden of proof, even regarding yichud, is on the defense?

    I have no knowledge of the case, but I know the proof is always on the prosecution, Now if the Prosecution brought up the Yichud issue , The defense would need to refute that evidence otherwise the Jury can use that as proof of guilt and will convict

    #912459

    DaasYochid
    Participant

    ZD, they would first have to prove yichud, and even if they did, although that would certainly reflect poorly on him, it wouldn’t prove a bigger crime.

    My point to GAW is that he seems to assume yichud, and I don’t know how he knows that there was.

    #912464

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Still nothing. Forget it.

    #912465

    ready now
    Participant

    Comparing an insect to a human being whether guilty or not, is really “off”.

    #912466

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    A Rasha does things that is a tremondous Chilul Hashem, And even in Prison there are some crimes that even the worst murderer cant stand

    #912467

    chalilavchas
    Member

    Comparing an insect to a human being whether guilty or not, is really “off”.

    Yes, definitely, considering that most insects dont have as sophisticated brains and self control as humans should have.

    And, I havent yet heard of one insect whose behavior led others of their species to go “Off” the Derech. So, yes, there are differences.

    Accusing someone without proof is a huge avera

    As far as casting guilt, theres much mud slinging all around, as is typical with such a publicly known court case.

    #912468

    ready now
    Participant

    Accusing someone without proof is a huge avera (all averos are huge) and is a hillul Hashem.

    #912469

    WIY
    Member

    Ready now

    How is accusing someone without proof an Aveira? If you stole from me but I can’t prove it because I am the only witness I commit an aveira for accusing you when I saw you steal my object?! No logic in this.

    #912470

    ready now
    Participant

    It is not an avera to take someone to a din Torah and accuse them of stealing from you. You can make a direct private accusation to the person you suspect.

    The case discussed in this thread in not theft.

    This is a different case. To succeed in Jewish law it also requires a level of proof that is not used by the secular courts.

    That is why the accusation is an avera – because it brings a Jewish person to non-Jewish law and thereby creates a hillul Hashem. It is against Jewish law to take a Jewish person to a secular court.

    That is why I wrote above –

    (by prejudging)

    and

    #912471

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    More and more Gedolim are realizing the seriousness of this Averiah and the Chilul Hashem it creates

    #912472

    yitayningwut
    Participant

    A person cannot be accused, tried, and punished without two simultaneous valid witnesses.

    You should learn the second siman in Choshen Mishpat and the plethora of teshuvos in the rishonim which relate to it. If/since there is no better system in place to protect the community it is very easy to Halachically justify using the American justice system.

    #912473

    ready now
    Participant

    yitayningwut

    The Choshen Mishpat you refer to is still undertaken by a beis din, but under unusual conditions.

    Stupid comments like:

    presupposes the accused is guilty – that presupposition is chutzpadik, is against Torah, it is an avera and is punishable.

    In saying “this Averiah and the Chilul Hashem it creates” he is talking about himself.

    #912474

    chalilavchas
    Member

    zahavasdad More and more Gedolim are realizing the seriousness of this Averiah and the Chilul Hashem it creates

    B”H.

    yitayningwut If/since there is no better system in place to protect the community it is very easy to Halachically justify using the American justice system.

    B”H.

    One thing we know for sure, until now, the victims and their families suffered w a y more than the perps. That cant be the way of Yashrus.

    Anyone willing to put in the effort and going to show support for the alleged victim today?

    #912475

    yehudayona
    Participant

    “One thing we know for sure, until now, the victims and their families suffered w a y more than the perps.”

    In cases where the kid is lying, the roles are reversed: the kid is the perp, and the person alleged to be a molester is the victim. The problem with forums like this is that too many people assume that all accusers are telling the truth.

    #912476

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    And RN

    When the court convicts

    Will you still maintain innocence?

    #912477

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    When the court convicts

    Will you still maintain innocence?

    Won’t change much in my mind. I’ll still not know.

    In case y’all are wondering. Juries in criminal cases convict something like 95%. That doesn’t necessarily mean there is something wrong with the system though; it really just means that there are so many steps before the jury where the innocent people are let off by the prosecutor or judge.

    #912478

    iced
    Member

    A non-Jewish court, using very flawed and non-halachic testimony, standards of evidence and rules of conviction is virtually meaningless and a guilty verdict there has no meaning.

    Literally every day cases of convicts who served long years in prison — including in many cases on death row — are determined they were completely innocent and finally freed. How many more truly innocent are never exonerated we’ll never know. In such a highly flawed and destructive justice system you place your blind faith??? The very same system where the truly guilty — OJ Simpson, Lemrick Nelson, et al — are allowed to walk scot free.

    #912479

    chalilavchas
    Member

    In cases where the kid is lying, the roles are reversed: the kid is the perp, and the person alleged to be a molester is the victim. The problem with forums like this is that too many people assume that all accusers are telling the truth.

    Yes, that is true!

    There are very few people who I trust more than Rav Yaakov Horowitz. I think he has his finger on the pulse.

    IMHO, I dont think R’ Horowitz would go as far as asking outsiders to support the accuser unless he had no doubt of the sincerity of her claims, based not only on what the accuser says, but on the experiences of others (plural) who have no relationship to the accuser, who have come forward either publicly or privately.

    For R’ Horowitz to have asked for support of the alleged victim, if he wasnt as sure as he could be, would make him an evil person. He is neither stupid or evil.

    #912480

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    If the people inside had gotten rid of them before the general public found out, there wouldnt be this mess.

    It isnt the crime thats so bad, I dont blame the community for having such a person. I blame them for covering it up and raising money

    #912481

    yitayningwut
    Participant

    ready now –

    I never contradicted, nor do I disagree with that.

    #912482

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Its a huge averiah because it causes others to sin.

    Eating Lobster , is your sin, its rare anyway else would sin because of it. However victims of abuse go OTD and sin for the rest of their lives because some sicko wasnt dealt with and was even praised as a “Tzzadik”

    #912483

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Sometime I wonder if some people dont really get the difference between Haman and Mordechai

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