Yasher Koach to Rabbi Horowitz of Project Yes, for protecting and not punishing

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  • #607199

    chalilavchas
    Member

    If we’d be as busy checking for offenders as checking for bugs…

    We go to Shiurim to learn how to carefully check for bugs. Why not have Shiurim on how to check for and remove — offenders? Many offenders roam the streets freely, with our knowledge, and are protected in the US and abroad. Why are we more careful to check for and remove bugs?

    Is there a Torah prohibition to check for and remove molesters/offenders, that Im not aware of?

    Somehow, many of us have no problem being Motzei Shem Ra on victims and allow them to be intimidated. Is this a Mitzvah? Usually when theres smoke, there has been fire.

    What message are we sending our youth and young adults who are aware of this position in our community? Isnt this hypochrisy souring them on frumkeit? Is being more careful to remove bugs than perps, and leave innocents in harm’s way, the Torah way?

    Yasher Koach to Rabbi Horowitz of Project Yes, for protecting and not further punishing victims! May he be Gezunt un Shtark!

  • #912424

    ZeesKite
    Participant

    I don’t know you, or about you, but I wouldn’t poke fun or belittle mitzvohs, or aveiros. No. I wouldn’t mock the precautions one must take lest one chalila be oiver on 6 aveiros per bite. No, not something to mock, belittle, poke fun. No. No s’char for that. At all.

    You do have an excellent point about the abuse, the attempt to hush things, and the effort being done to combat that. That is serious. Pretty serious. But no need to belittle one of HaShem’s special mitzvohs for another.

  • #912425

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    The abuse coverup IMO is the BIGGEST Chilul Hashem and the greatest threat to charedi Judaism and its fairly easy to fix.

    In general society abusers are considered the lowest of the low, nobody like abusers, just look at Penn State or the Catholic Church. Harboring them not hurts more people, It hurts Rabbinic leadership and does cause people not to listen and not respect Rabbenim. People dont respect abusers and they dont respect people who habor abusers.

    Every averiah caused by someone who went OTD because of abuse and rabbinic coverup of the abuser is a stain on the community

  • #912426

    ready now
    Participant

    A person cannot be accused, tried, and punished without two simultaneous valid witnesses. Therefore: Vigilance Vigilance, Vigilance.

  • #912427

    chalilavchas
    Member

    Zeeskite,

    I don’t know you, or about you, but I wouldn’t poke fun at me, because Im not attempting to poke fun at any Mitzvah at all. I am very into checking for bugs and constantly learning new things about specific produce.

    My main attempt is to call attention to Rabbi Horowitz’s unique bravery, which I dont recall our community having had the likes of, EVER, among members of Right Wing Rabbinate! Very courageous indeed.

    Please dont focus on a sentence here or there. I think checking for and ridding our community of molesters should be equally important, not more important than any other Mitzvah. Strangely, ridding our community of molesters has been very low on the totem pole of importance.

  • #912428

    ZeesKite
    Participant

    If that is how you’d like to phrase it, by all means. I just didn’t like the tone used (4 times) to downplay the hilchos bdikas tolaim – I think there’s a portion of shulchan aruch on that. If you didn’t intend to, then I beg your pardon.

    Now why it’s “very low .. of importance”, I think that being that not everyone is in position of power, know-how, courage, not everyone is suited for that job. That’s a job for people of stature – sanhedrin are commanded to root out and rid out evil doers, not anyone and everyone can take the law into one’s own hands.

    However EVERYONE is commanded not to eat forbidden foods.

    And as you can see, I haven’t made it to the little leagues yet.

  • #912431

    DaasYochid
    Participant

    Why do people assume that it’s of little importance to the community? Because they aren’t privy to the investigations and precautions taking place without publicity?

    Just because you don’t know something, doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.

  • #912432

    farrocks
    Member

    Daas: The people that spout that it is of little importance and/or the community does little about it, are the typical anti-semites. Granted these anti-semites claim they don’t hate all Jews, just hate certain categories of Jews (i.e. chareidim), but they are the typical self-hating anti-semites nevertheless that hate and lie simply for the sake of hating and lying.

  • #912433

    funnybone
    Member

    “Usually when there’s smoke, there has been fire.”

    Is that enough of a reason to besmirch a person? Because of “usually”? I’m not saying that there shouldn’t be an investigation, but the reason why you aren’t privy to all the info is b/c we don’t believe in publicizing every child’s accusations! (Yes, I know of a child who made an accusation-I’ll leave out the details- that turned out to be untrue.)

    I do believe that parents need to teach their children to beware. I do believe that schools need to make sure that students aren’t left alone with teachers and I do believe that every accusation should be taken seriously! But I also believe that every accusation shouldn’t be spread across the NY Times before we ascertain that the child is telling the truth!

  • #912435

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Now why it’s “very low .. of importance”, I think that being that not everyone is in position of power, know-how, courage, not everyone is suited for that job. That’s a job for people of stature – sanhedrin are commanded to root out and rid out evil doers, not anyone and everyone can take the law into one’s own hands.

    However EVERYONE is commanded not to eat forbidden food

    Which is a bigger Chilul Hashem, The Mayor of NYC eating in an obvious treif restaurant or a court case currently occuring in Brookyln.

  • #912436

    chalilavchas
    Member

    The people that spout that it is of little importance and/or the community does little about it, are the typical anti-semites. Granted these anti-semites claim they don’t hate all Jews, just hate certain categories of Jews (i.e. chareidim), but they are the typical self-hating anti-semites nevertheless that hate and lie simply for the sake of hating and lying.

    Does it occur to you that the hundreds of victims and all people who support the victims, are just as Charedi?

    Which is a bigger Chilul Hashem, The Mayor of NYC eating in an obvious treif restaurant or a court case currently occuring in Brookyln.

    My feelings exactly!

  • #912438

    yehudayona
    Participant

    I’m with funnybone. I know of a case where a child made accusations that were untrue, and certain people in leadership positions, possibly feeling guilty because they had dropped the ball in an earlier abuse case, assumed the child was telling the truth. It’s just as bad to assume the accused is a molester as to assume the child is making it up. All these cases need to be investigated thoroughly by unbiased authorities.

  • #912440

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    Certainly insisting that there is no problem eating tolaim is a greater chilul Hashem than a trial in Brooklyn.

    Considering that chilul Hashem is based on causing other to be oiver on aveiros.

    Also tweeting from the trial is a huge chilul Hashem, in my opinion.

    And one has to wonder about someone who’s job is fundraising just to fund his own pocket. Yet using an organizations name and exemption to do so. When this person is providing no benefits for such organization.

  • #912441

    Is that enough of a reason to besmirch a person? Because of “usually”?

    Chazal/Dovid Hamelech were Mesaken guidelines in to avoid situations such as in this trial (i.e. Hilchos YICHUD!). If this person chose not to follow Chazal, that is good reason to say “when there is smoke, there is fire”.

  • #912442

    funnybone
    Member

    I don’t have the details of this trial, but not every time that a Rebbe/Morah speaks to a child in an office (which others can enter at any time) is there a “good reason to to say when there is smoke, there is fire.” This issue is true for the tutors and specialties as well, they all need some privacy yet we need to have people entering and leaving at will. Some children might still have accusations and they need to be taken seriously, although not as an absolute truth.

  • #912443

    ready now
    Participant

    Do not accuse an innocent- to do so is a very grave sin.

  • #912444

    Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    ready now – I think that when abuse charges are first made we may be unsure if they occurred or not. WHILE I am in the mode of “not knowing the facts” or “not being 100% certain” I am welcome to refrain from assuming guilt but I would have NOOOOOO business running fundraisers and crying innocent. NOT ONE person, aside of the abused, knows for certain that this molester DID NOT do what he is accused of. They have less PROOF of his innocence than there is “proof” of his guilt. They are jumping on bandwagons and should be ashamed of themselves. And any of them who are privy to information that they are sitting on, I am comforted knowing Hashem is Just.

  • #912445

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    He is an innocent man now , because he hasnt been proven guilty “yet”.

    Besides his defense is not im innocent, but rather She caused it

  • #912446

    ready now
    Participant
  • #912447

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    Syag,

    Your comment is silly in that you assume that a person has no right to defense. I don’t know this case nor am I following it, but it is quite likely that there a goodly number if people who know this man. And they believe they know him well and know that he could not have done such a thing. They may also know the other side and believe that they are completely likely to have made this up for whatever reason.

    In that case it is understandable why he had supporters who are doing what they can to help him.

  • #912449

    chalilavchas
    Member

    nishtdayngesheft

    …..I don’t know this case nor am I following it, but it is quite likely that there a goodly number if people who know this man. And they believe they know him well and know that he could not have done such a thing.

    1-Since when does reputation have anything at all to do with innocence or guilt? In the first well known frum molestation case of many years ago, involving a psychologist, he was the most admired and respected person in the world. Absolutely no one believed it of him, until the accusations started raining on him from all over.

    2-It seems that there are many complaints/accusations from unrelated people, with this case as well.

  • #912450

    ShalomToYou
    Member

    America’s obsession with being anti-child abuse stems from their worship of youth. Unfortunately this is becoming more common in the Jewish world as well. Everyone should take it easy. The greatest threat to Chareidi Judaism?? Give me a break.

  • #912451

    shmoel
    Member

    The victim in this case is the falsely accused.

  • #912452

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Abusers must be kicked out of the community like an insect on a vegetable.

    If there was one insect in your lettuce would you eat it assuming you knew it was there and couldnt remove it?

    There must be ZERO tolerance for abusers

  • #912453

    There are no witnesses to any supposed infringement of yihud.

    Then it should be easy to prove his innocence, as at all sessions (which he agrees he did have) there was an additional female (Yichud is with 2 males as well). I await the proof.

  • #912454

    Then it should be easy to prove his innocence, as at all sessions (which he agrees he did have) there was an additional male (Yichud is with 2 females as well). I await the proof.

    (Sorry for the misspeak)

  • #912455

    chalilavchas
    Member

    Anyone who was familiar with the accused’s goings-on, didnt they question the Yichud problem? Locked doors??? Sessions that lasted hours? How didnt anyone think this was problematic?

  • #912456

    DaasYochid
    Participant

    GAW,

    I have no knowledge of this case, but why do you assume the burden of proof, even regarding yichud, is on the defense?

  • #912457

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I have no knowledge of this case, but why do you assume the burden of proof, even regarding yichud, is on the defense?

    I have no knowledge of the case, but I know the proof is always on the prosecution, Now if the Prosecution brought up the Yichud issue , The defense would need to refute that evidence otherwise the Jury can use that as proof of guilt and will convict

  • #912459

    DaasYochid
    Participant

    ZD, they would first have to prove yichud, and even if they did, although that would certainly reflect poorly on him, it wouldn’t prove a bigger crime.

    My point to GAW is that he seems to assume yichud, and I don’t know how he knows that there was.

  • #912464

    Still nothing. Forget it.

  • #912465

    ready now
    Participant

    Comparing an insect to a human being whether guilty or not, is really “off”.

  • #912466

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    A Rasha does things that is a tremondous Chilul Hashem, And even in Prison there are some crimes that even the worst murderer cant stand

  • #912467

    chalilavchas
    Member

    Comparing an insect to a human being whether guilty or not, is really “off”.

    Yes, definitely, considering that most insects dont have as sophisticated brains and self control as humans should have.

    And, I havent yet heard of one insect whose behavior led others of their species to go “Off” the Derech. So, yes, there are differences.

    Accusing someone without proof is a huge avera

    As far as casting guilt, theres much mud slinging all around, as is typical with such a publicly known court case.

  • #912468

    ready now
    Participant

    Accusing someone without proof is a huge avera (all averos are huge) and is a hillul Hashem.

  • #912469

    WIY
    Member

    Ready now

    How is accusing someone without proof an Aveira? If you stole from me but I can’t prove it because I am the only witness I commit an aveira for accusing you when I saw you steal my object?! No logic in this.

  • #912470

    ready now
    Participant

    It is not an avera to take someone to a din Torah and accuse them of stealing from you. You can make a direct private accusation to the person you suspect.

    The case discussed in this thread in not theft.

    This is a different case. To succeed in Jewish law it also requires a level of proof that is not used by the secular courts.

    That is why the accusation is an avera – because it brings a Jewish person to non-Jewish law and thereby creates a hillul Hashem. It is against Jewish law to take a Jewish person to a secular court.

    That is why I wrote above –

    (by prejudging)

    and

  • #912471

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    More and more Gedolim are realizing the seriousness of this Averiah and the Chilul Hashem it creates

  • #912472

    yitayningwut
    Member

    A person cannot be accused, tried, and punished without two simultaneous valid witnesses.

    You should learn the second siman in Choshen Mishpat and the plethora of teshuvos in the rishonim which relate to it. If/since there is no better system in place to protect the community it is very easy to Halachically justify using the American justice system.

  • #912473

    ready now
    Participant

    yitayningwut

    The Choshen Mishpat you refer to is still undertaken by a beis din, but under unusual conditions.

    Stupid comments like:

    presupposes the accused is guilty – that presupposition is chutzpadik, is against Torah, it is an avera and is punishable.

    In saying “this Averiah and the Chilul Hashem it creates” he is talking about himself.

  • #912474

    chalilavchas
    Member

    zahavasdad More and more Gedolim are realizing the seriousness of this Averiah and the Chilul Hashem it creates

    B”H.

    yitayningwut If/since there is no better system in place to protect the community it is very easy to Halachically justify using the American justice system.

    B”H.

    One thing we know for sure, until now, the victims and their families suffered w a y more than the perps. That cant be the way of Yashrus.

    Anyone willing to put in the effort and going to show support for the alleged victim today?

  • #912475

    yehudayona
    Participant

    “One thing we know for sure, until now, the victims and their families suffered w a y more than the perps.”

    In cases where the kid is lying, the roles are reversed: the kid is the perp, and the person alleged to be a molester is the victim. The problem with forums like this is that too many people assume that all accusers are telling the truth.

  • #912476

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    And RN

    When the court convicts

    Will you still maintain innocence?

  • #912477

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    When the court convicts

    Will you still maintain innocence?

    Won’t change much in my mind. I’ll still not know.

    In case y’all are wondering. Juries in criminal cases convict something like 95%. That doesn’t necessarily mean there is something wrong with the system though; it really just means that there are so many steps before the jury where the innocent people are let off by the prosecutor or judge.

  • #912478

    iced
    Member

    A non-Jewish court, using very flawed and non-halachic testimony, standards of evidence and rules of conviction is virtually meaningless and a guilty verdict there has no meaning.

    Literally every day cases of convicts who served long years in prison — including in many cases on death row — are determined they were completely innocent and finally freed. How many more truly innocent are never exonerated we’ll never know. In such a highly flawed and destructive justice system you place your blind faith??? The very same system where the truly guilty — OJ Simpson, Lemrick Nelson, et al — are allowed to walk scot free.

  • #912479

    chalilavchas
    Member

    In cases where the kid is lying, the roles are reversed: the kid is the perp, and the person alleged to be a molester is the victim. The problem with forums like this is that too many people assume that all accusers are telling the truth.

    Yes, that is true!

    There are very few people who I trust more than Rav Yaakov Horowitz. I think he has his finger on the pulse.

    IMHO, I dont think R’ Horowitz would go as far as asking outsiders to support the accuser unless he had no doubt of the sincerity of her claims, based not only on what the accuser says, but on the experiences of others (plural) who have no relationship to the accuser, who have come forward either publicly or privately.

    For R’ Horowitz to have asked for support of the alleged victim, if he wasnt as sure as he could be, would make him an evil person. He is neither stupid or evil.

  • #912480

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    If the people inside had gotten rid of them before the general public found out, there wouldnt be this mess.

    It isnt the crime thats so bad, I dont blame the community for having such a person. I blame them for covering it up and raising money

  • #912481

    yitayningwut
    Member

    ready now –

    I never contradicted, nor do I disagree with that.

  • #912482

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Its a huge averiah because it causes others to sin.

    Eating Lobster , is your sin, its rare anyway else would sin because of it. However victims of abuse go OTD and sin for the rest of their lives because some sicko wasnt dealt with and was even praised as a “Tzzadik”

  • #912483

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Sometime I wonder if some people dont really get the difference between Haman and Mordechai

  • #912484

    DaasYochid
    Participant

    ZD, you keep on repeating how bad the aveira is, but nobody’s disagreed with you about that. No matter how destructive and evil such behavior is, it doesn’t prove the guilt of a particular individual.

  • #912485

    ready now
    Participant

    chalilavchas -you trust Horowitz, but it is commanded to trust Hashem only. You are not a baby- go by Torah!

    Yitayningwut- Another thought- using the Choshen Mispat siman 2, nowadays, there would probably be only three standing in the world left. Many in CR would be the first in the line-up to be judged.

  • #912486

    WIY
    Member

    Daas Yachid

    So basically since we will almost never catch an abuser on video and since they are usually smart enough to cover their tracks well we should never believe the accuser and always assume they are making up a story right?

    Listen, in this case although there is no proof, there’s certainly smoke and quite a bit of it at that and when there’s smoke there’s usually fire. There’s way too much in his modus operandi that makes no sense. Btw did you ever hear of a therapist that went on a private 14 hour trip with their client?! Especially with an underage girl?!

  • #912487

    ready now
    Participant

    WIY – DO NOT PREJUDGE.

    In many instances two valid witnesses are required as proof in a din Torah. One can go without two valid witnesses if one does not have them and see what the dayonim say – each case is slightly different.

  • #912488

    DaasYochid
    Participant

    WIY, As I stated previously, I don’t know anything about this case. I therefore make no judgement either way. ZD also did not claim any knowledge of this case, and therefore I question his prejudging.

    The threshold for bringing the authorities in is “raglayim l’davar”. This is determined by a posek based on halachically accepted means, but certainly does not require video evidence.

  • #912489

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    DY

    This is a moderated forum and you only see the posts that go through, although I have tried to limit what I say because I know the rules.

    If this was not a moderated forum, I would certainly post more information why i feel a certain way.

    Usually when a defendent is on trial they do not take the stand for fear of incriminating themselves of the crime or other crimes. The defendent in this case should have taken this advice. Read the newspapers even if you think they are biased, They have retold his time on the stand fairly accurate.

  • #912490

    iced
    Member

    He is innocent. Therefore he took the stand. The guilty are afraid to testify in their own defense.

  • #912491

    ready now
    Participant

    First he judges then he uses the secular press to smear more -and still no din Torah- a disgrace!

  • #912492

    WIY
    Member

    Iced

    No his going on the stand does not prove innocence just arrogance. You obviously didn’t read up on what was revealed during his testimony. He definitely is no model citizen….

  • #912493

    chalilavchas
    Member

    He is innocent. Therefore he took the stand. The guilty are afraid to testify in their own defense.

    Those are gross generalizations, if I ever heard any. Really gross.

    Please let us know when you will be signing up relatives and friends daughters to take 14 hour trips with him to the mountains and have hours long sessions with him behind doors that are locked with three locks. He, who by the way was quoted as saying that Hilchos Yichud are man-made. Hilchos Tznius- heavy tights are of greater importance….

    How many girls will you be signing up? You have a daughter who might need help? Hes the greatest……

  • #912494

    DaasYochid
    Participant

    ZD, I’m confused. Previously, you stated that you didn’t know the case. Now, you say you feel the media reports are fairly accurate. How would you be in a position to know that?

    Iced, that’s ludicrous. Should any defendant who takes the stand automatically be exonorated?

  • #912495

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    There was a thread recently about opposite gender therapists. Many people were saying it was assur, And now suddenly its permitted?

    Except in a yerusha case, then I guess its permitted

  • #912496

    Matan1
    Member

    Ready now

    Why on earth would an 18 year old girl willingly put herself through this torture to convict him if he is innocent. what does she have to gain? Only slurs and hurtful remarks.

  • #912497

    WIY
    Member

    Can my comment be approved?

  • #912498

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I only know the case from the Media reports. I dont have any inside information.

    I belive her story more than his story, Too many holes in his story and what he has said on the stand did not convince me he was a victims of an angry teen

  • #912499

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    Zdad,

    If you were willing to be honest with yourself you would acknowledge that you just have a unhealthy and unfounded proclivity to assume that chasidic men are wrong.

    As is obvious from 98% of your comments.

    I wonder if you will being honest with yourself any easier than being honest with others.

  • #912501

    chalilavchas
    Member

    nishtdayngesheft,

    If YOU were willing to be honest with YOURSELF youd ask yourself and others why he took a young pretty girl on a 14 hour trip all alone. If he had good intentions and the desire to keep Hilchos Yichud, hed have taken someone along for the ride.

    nishtdayngesheft, proclivity … shmoclivity.

  • #912502

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I honestly know I would not take a 14 year old girl who is not my offspring anywhere.

  • #912503

    farrocks
    Member

    There is zero evidence against him for what he stands accused of other than her word. It is a typical “he-said/she-said” situation, and we cannot accept a conviction based on a he-said/she-said situation with zero real actual evidence.

  • #912504

    chalilavchas
    Member

    nishtdayngesheft, I believe I read that Pearl Engelman, the Chassidishe mother of another abuse victim said she has firsthand knowledge of other victims of his, but they dont want to come forward. Is she lieing too?

  • #912505

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    Chalila,

    I said I don’t know the case and I’m not following it. And I am not making statements as to who did what. Contrary to what you may have claimed before.

    I am saying that people making claims about the case when All they know is what they read in media in luring tho blog and others leaves no one with enough information to make an honest assessment. However it it is easier to make an assessment based on existing biases.

    I would say less than 1% of what is written in the NYT, NYP or NYDN is true. And what is written on the blogs you seem to be following are even less so. And my guess at percentages is based on instances where I actually witnessed things that were totally misrepresented in those media. Of where I have corresponded with the writers and caught them in numerous blatant lies.

    Which is as easy to with them as many of the comments here.

  • #912506

    chalilavchas
    Member

    nishtdayngesheft,

    So in order to get a conviction thats fair in your eyes, and prevent an accused individual from walking, you think we need Hashem to come down and say guilty?

    Hashem has never done that before, that I know of.

    The best of “proof” and the best of witnesses can be totally false.

  • #912507

    iced
    Member

    A fair conviction can only come from a duly constituted Bais Din organized under Halacha utilizing Torah Law and standards of evidence.

  • #912508

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    A fair conviction can only come from a duly constituted Bais Din organized under Halacha utilizing Torah Law and standards of evidence.

    So, on a practical level, since there is no such court, what do you propose we do with thieves, rapists, child molesters and murderers today?

    Or is it your contention that all Jews should be free from all criminal prosecution?

    The Wolf

  • #912509

    ready now
    Participant

    Wolf. you said-

    You are not correct, because there IS such a court.

  • #912510

    chalilavchas
    Member

    Wolf,

    …Or is it your contention that all Jews should be free from all criminal prosecution?

    The Wolf

    Love it!

  • #912511

    iced
    Member

    A Bais Din is capable of convening and ruling on the matter on hand (under discussion) today and imposing the halachicly prescribed penalties if guilty.

  • #912512

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    The defends have not answered about the 15 Hour road trip upstate

    This was admitted by the defendant on the Witness stand so its not a “Tablod Lie”

    What possible Halacha allows a road trip with an unmarried girl above the age of 12?

  • #912513

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    Chalila,

    Is that what I said? Can you show me where I said that?

    I said there is no way you can make any sort of honest judgment by what you have read in the media or on blogs.

    How you stretched that comment to what you allege is beyond my comprehension.

    And it is somewhat troubling how you believe you can make any objective judgment if you are given to such convoluted leaps in this case.

  • #912514

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    Z,

    What halacha forbids it? Can you make one up?

    Perhaps if it were at night. But I have no idea when this was. Nor do I believe anything listed in the media. And as as for what you’re saying, well you’re writing on a blog, and I made clear how much I believe that medium. And I am pretty certain I can accurately guess which other blogs you peruse for your sources.

  • #912515

    iced
    Member

    zd: His wife went on the trip with the girl. This fact was never even disputed by the prosecution.

  • #912516

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    A Bais Din is capable of convening and ruling on the matter on hand (under discussion) today and imposing the halachicly prescribed penalties if guilty.

    Yeah? You really think there is a Bais Din that is authorized to administer the death penalty or even malkus today?

    Please, tell me who are the semuchim who would form this Bais Din?

    The Wolf

  • #912517

    ready now
    Participant

    Do not prejudice- you are not a dayan, and if you were you would be out of order speaking here.

    Anyone prejudicing really has to have a good look at themselves.

    In the days of horses and carts, people took hours to get from A to B. What do you know – nothing.

  • #912518

    yehudayona
    Participant

    iced, there are many cases of defendants taking the stand in which it was their own testimony that convinced the jury of their guilt. I sat on such a jury once.

    I know nothing about this case other than what I read here. It seems to me that unless you’re privy to all the testimony that the jury hears, you’re in no position to judge. Reading about it in the paper is not the same as being in the courtroom. I totally agree with nishtdayngesheft about the accuracy of the media.

  • #912519

    Ben Levi
    Participant

    Zdad,

    You happen to be right there are those that state that a “road trip” with an unmarried girl above the age of 12 is assur becuase of Yichud.

    Therefore they contend that it is prohibited for Boys and girls to go out on dates.

  • #912520

    Ben Levi
    Participant

    In cases of abuse I wonder if anyone here has read up about the “pre-school” cases of the 80’s where in a whole bunch of cases men (and in some instances women) were convicted of child abuse.

    In all these cases eventually it was proven that the accused were innocent, in many cases they had already benn sitting in Jail for years.

    In fact the near total exoneration of virtually all the accussed and the open demonstration of numerous cases where children did not say the actual truth plaid a real role in the child abuse accusation being laid to rest for a lon. long time.

    Look the cases up some of them are pretty famous.

    As for Halacha.

    There is something called “kula d’loh posuk” in such cases Beis Din has the ability to require that a “suspect” no longer deal with a specific women or children ect… as a precaution even though they may not punish since they do not have enough evidence to warrant a punishment.

  • #912521

    Ben Levi
    Participant

    Just to clarify.

    I purposley dis not use the term “lie” in talking about accusotory children.

    There is aconsiderable evidence to the fact that children below a certain age do not lie about things in the way adults understand lie rather their perception of reality is different then an adults and hence when they say over a story in many instances they do not think they are lieing in the conventional sense.

    I don’t think this is news to any parent of small children.

    This is one reason why it’s quite disingenous when “experts” qoute studies showing “children don’t lie”.

    Yes they do not lie in many cases, however they are not telling the truth as we understand it to be.

    Again most parents of small children understand what I am saying as it’s pretty much self understood.

    But then again most of the “experts” that are the originators of most of these “studies” had very few children of their own and even if they did they spent very little time with them to know many of the things that many Jewish Parents who grew up in families with numerous siblings, cousins ect.. take for granted.

    So they had to spend millions of dollars and make numerous mistakes trying to find out a little bit of what we know.

    Sort of like President Barack Obama telling a buisnessman how to turn a profit, with equal results.

  • #912522

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    In Chassidic communmities there is a Beshow unmarried people never go on a date.

  • #912523

    iced
    Member

    Wolf: Even if the allegations in this case had been true, it is not a capital case. The penalty prescribed by halacha for this is within the jurisdiction and competence of a contemporary Bais Din.

  • #912524

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    And what punishment does contemporary Beis Din implment for such an offense other than montary compensation.

    This is not a capital case, If convicted he is going to Jail. Beis Din cannot implement Jail sentences

  • #912525

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Wolf: Even if the allegations in this case had been true, it is not a capital case. The penalty prescribed by halacha for this is within the jurisdiction and competence of a contemporary Bais Din.

    Is it? Are you talking about the k’nas of a na’arah (since she was 12 when this started)?

    That’s a k’nas… which, again, you need s’muchim.

    Are you saying that it’s strictly a monetary case with only civil penalties involved?

    If so, then I ask you — is monetary punishment the only acceptable punishment for thieves, gangsters, arsonists, child molesters and rapists (as long as they don’t kill anyone)? If not, then what would you do with these people?

    The Wolf

  • #912526

    a mamin
    Participant

    I find it amusing unfortunately, how all of you seem to know the true facts first hand! Tell me do any of you know the accuser firsthand? Do you know her husband as well?? There is so little coverage of who and what she is! This whole case is a terrible chillul Hashem! I am NOT SWEEPING things under the carpet, BUT you need to know who she is and what shes done with her life!! Not because she’s been abused BUT because of choices that she has made !

  • #912527

    iced
    Member

    Wolf: She has made no allegation of their being any actual maisa.

  • #912528

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Wolf: She has made no allegation of their being any actual maisa.

    I’m not referring to this case, specifically.

    You said:

    A fair conviction can only come from a duly constituted Bais Din organized under Halacha utilizing Torah Law and standards of evidence.

    I can only assume that you meant this universally and not just for this case. (If I’m wrong in this assumption, please tell me).

    If so, again, I ask, what do you propose that we do, on a practical level, with child molesters, rapists, arsonists and thieves in our community? If they cannot be prosecuted by the DA (since there can be no “fair conviction” under your definition) and there is no Beis Din that can prosecute them (unless you feel that these cases are strictly civil matters), then what do you propose we do with them?

    The Wolf

  • #912529

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    I find it amusing unfortunately, how all of you seem to know the true facts first hand! Tell me do any of you know the accuser firsthand? Do you know her husband as well?? There is so little coverage of who and what she is! This whole case is a terrible chillul Hashem! I am NOT SWEEPING things under the carpet, BUT you need to know who she is and what shes done with her life!! Not because she’s been abused BUT because of choices that she has made !

    Does it matter?

    If what you are implying about her is true, so what? Does that mean she deserves abuse? Or is not entitled to justice if abused?

    Justice in this case needs to be based on evidence and testimony (or lack of same). Who and what she may have otherwise done is really beside the point.

    The Wolf

  • #912530

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    It is not an averirah to not want to follow the laws of Satmar.

  • #912531

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    He has been found GUILTY of all Charges..

  • #912532

    iced
    Member

    As said, false guilty verdict.

  • #912533

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    On what bases do you have that info?

    The evidence was provided , ample oportunity was given to refute the evidence and a jury of 6 men and 6 women convicted based on the evidence provided.

    He might have even admitted to another crime on the stand (embezzlement) Non-Profits have monetary rules that have to be followed to keep that status

  • #912534

    fedex11204
    Member

    I am ecstatic about this verdict ..I must say let that rotten person rot in prison

  • #912535

    a mamin
    Participant

    She wanted revenge because her so called boy friend was arrested a while back. I remember the story then and how she swore she would get back at him for helping to have him arrested ,she got her revenge today, BUT there is justice, and she will get hers……

  • #912537

    chalilavchas
    Member

    a mamin:

    So 14 hour trips to the country with a young attractive female are kosher, but not wearing heavy tights and reading People magazine, is a more serious offense? Get your head together.

    And how about that others in the community have said that they know of many others who vere victims of his, but they are hesitant to come forward. A devoutly Hasidic woman whose son was abused years ago, said there are eight others, who just refuse to shame their families and arent coming forward. Ive heard Chassidishe Rebbes who are aware of the case, sympathized with the victim as well.

    Do you think she chose to have her entire life, mistakes included, being torn apart and scritunized by lawyers in court, just for revenge? Do you think many others who stood up for her and believe her were taking revenge as well? For what?

    Three locks on the door, for what?

    What planet are you living on? Planet of Denial it seems.

    Please have your young pretty daughters and other relatives go visit him in jail behind closed doors. They will surely spend their time with him telling them how evil it is not to wear heavy tights, etc. After all hes a frummer Yid and NO frumme people commit these kinds of crimes.

  • #912538

    BSD
    Member

    It is reasonable to be skeptical of the accuser especially since the accused is a well known, established member of the kehilla, while the accuser is a heretofore unknown girl who is no longer part of the kehilla.

    However she has a few saving graces.

    Yanky Horowitz is extremely street smart-you cannot get one past him. He is also a very respectful person. If he endorsed her it’s because he verified independently that her claims are indisputably true.

    Her parents,who are part of the kehilla, backed her.

    A frum therapist took the stand and testified that she advised the accuser to press charges. Coming forward was not her own idea. She moved on with life. She holds a job and goes to college.

  • #912539

    iced
    Member

    She has been a highly immoral person since at least 15 yeats old, before she ever met him. Her word is as good as Pinnocio’s.

  • #912540

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    She has been a highly immoral person since at least 15 yeats old

    Again, so what?

    Even if she were promiscuous, that doesn’t give people free reign to molest her — and even if promiscuous, she is entitled to justice if she is molested.

    What matters is what happened between her and Mr. Weberman. Her other past activities (real or imagined) should have no bearing on the matter at all.

    The Wolf

  • #912541

    yitzchokm
    Participant

    chalilavchas-

    you keep reiterating the same stupidity. others have testified that there aren’t three lacks on the door. just because she says so doesn’t make it so.

    The 14 hour trips as I understand were with his wife. there is nothing wrong with that

    you keep saying how you you’ve heard things. You’ve heard how people say XYZ. Hearing things from people doesn’t make it so.

    Yes I do think she chose her life to do that. she definitely did do this for revenge. there is absolutely no question about it.

    I’m not sure what you’re angry about. But to believe this was a fair trial is absurd. the DAs office did a good job portraying him as an alien from out of space trying to live among people. so no, I don’t plead guilty even after this verdict. the proves absolutely nothing other than some people who thought of satmer as crazies to begin with feeling good about their confirmed belief.

    for shame.

  • #912542

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Iced…

    What moral person takes a 15 year old girl on a road trip???

    The road trip was never denied by anyone

  • #912543

    ready now
    Participant

    The verdict is a great tragedy and an insult to the Jewish people and an insult to the intelligence of the American people at the most basic level.

    It is the judgement that is given by instinct- the jury- like unthinking animals. May Hashem avenge the injustice soon.

  • #912544

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    An insult to the jewish people is people defending this guilty party.

    He was not found guilty because of Anti-Semitism , He was found guilty because its likely he committed a crime

  • #912545

    ready now
    Participant

    No evidence to convict. He is innocent.

  • #912547

    truthsharer
    Member

    If Satmar doesn’t have much faith in the justice system, why are the rebbes fighting in the justice system?

  • #912548

    Mammele
    Participant

    ZD: Likely? That’s what’s irking me and many others. It’s supposed to be beyond a reasonable doubt. I don’t think it reached that threshold of proof. Very sad.

    And I highly doubt the jurors weren’t influenced by the negative press — where even his weight was held against him.

  • #912549

    BSD
    Member

    “The verdict is a great tragedy and an insult to the Jewish people”

    The Satmar community is a chashuvah kehilla. I have a lot of family there, and they are among the most special human beings you can find. Bikur cholim does amazing selfless work etc. etc. Satmar is not under scrutiny-an individual is.

    “The 14 hour trips as I understand were with his wife. there is nothing wrong with that”

    The accused never denied being alone with her on those trips.

    “But to believe this was a fair trial is absurd.”

    The accused hired a well known attorney who crossed examined her extensively. He attempted to destroy her credibility but was not successful. The jury was unanimous.

    “She has been a highly immoral person since at least 15 yeats old, before she ever met him.”

    She met him at age 12 and continued until 15.

    “others have testified that there aren’t three lacks on the door.”

    The were several therapy sessions per week for 3 years each lasting 4 hours in duration. He does not deny this-nor that the door was closed during this time. If there were no locks that may make it halachikly ok (?) but there are still hashkafic ramifications.

  • #912550

    ZeesKite
    Participant

    I’m not following this case (I usually do, I must know of all details, rulings, proceeding etc. I am an overpriced unlawyer, illegal expert). From what I read here (and the snippets I get on another site) I gather that not too much yiras shamayim can be attained while getting drilled over and over with these intimate shameful details. After a while they seep inside, not too healthy. So you’ll have to excuse my lack of a very valuable important comment on this. If I’d be a Rav, judge or the like, I’d have to listen to all this shutz, being that they’re smart enough to keep me out (to their misfortune), I don’t think I should be peeking and poking at disgusting intricate, intimate details.

    I personally think a better service to K’lal Yisroel would be to formulate and issue some sort of hand book or guidelines how to prevent such incidents. It should be in some language suitable for all. I think many would benefit from such a publication, more than from just miring in this case’s filth.

  • #912551

    WIY
    Member

    I recommend everyone google the following and THEN come back to discuss if you still feel you have something valid to say.

    Weberman trial: How do we know victim is telling truth?

  • #912552

    ready now
    Participant

    Z-kite, by your “non-judgemental” comments (judgement) you have made your opinion clear.

    However -there were no sordid incidents because there was no proof- only allegations.

  • #912553

    Health
    Participant

    Whether guilty or not I surely don’t know. Is there a smoking gun like in other circumstantial cases? No, it doesn’t appear to be.

    I do see many Frum bloggers here and other places jumping for joy at this guilty verdict. This I believe is due to Sinas Chinum on their part. Forget about what Bais Din would have done – nothing near life in prison, but let’s look at this from a Goyishe perspective. They say the Jury saw circumstatial evidence and that’s why they found him Guilty. Let’s look at a different case in our Court system (even though a different State, but they all work basically the same) – the Anthony trial. There was tons of circumstantial evidence against her, more than this Satmar guy, but the Jury claimed it wasn’t enough to convict. Over here, there was much less and yet guilty on ALL counts?

    It seems juries in general are basing their decisions on emotions rather than on facts. In Florida it was a young “innocent” girl on trial for murder – poor girl. In NY it was a Chassidish Middle Age guy supposedly molesting a young girl – poor girl.

    Forget about guilty or innocence, forget about what the Torah requires, how could anybody with any brains, let alone s/o who was brought up Frum, have faith in a Jury system that is a total failure? You see clearly time after time Juries basing their decision on emotions, not on facts. Eg. OJ, L. Nelson, besides the above.

    So perhaps all these Frum bloggers should Not jump for joy just because some Jury decided what they wanted to hear?!? It’s even more saddening to hear from Frum bloggers -“Justice has been served”. Justice is Not possible with a Jury system, even if sometimes they get it right!

  • #912554

    Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    All those who say he is innocent – If you say that we don’t have proof and shouldn’t call him guilty, I will agree, as long as you don’t call him innocent either. Don’t play both sides of the fence, either we aren’t allowed to declare our opinions as knowledge, or we are.

  • #912555

    chalilavchas
    Member

    How do we know the victim is telling truth?

    Google “Pearl Engelman. As I write, I hold a list of 8 other victims”

  • #912556

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    There is at least one other victim of this man who did not originally press charges for fear of retribution. They may now press charges against him

  • #912557

    chalilavchas
    Member

    To those who feel he is innocent and is being wrongfully punished:

    What would you say to Rav Yaakov Horowitz and Pearl Engelman, two very ehrlich people, who after much research, with no personal vendetta against him, were thoroughly convinced of his guilt and asked for support of the victim, despite her being less outwardly frum than him?

  • #912558

    iced
    Member

    Horowitz has been wrong several times in the past with his knee-jerk reaction of believing every allegation against frum people.

  • #912559

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    the Rasha is not FRUM, he is a RASHA.

    When you commit a terrrible averiah and then commit a terrible chilul hashem you are no longer frum

  • #912560

    chalilavchas
    Member

    iced, Horowitz has been wrong several times in the past with his knee-jerk reaction of believing every allegation against frum people.

    1-How are you SO sure he was wrong this time? Were you in on all the counseling sessions?

    2-And what would you say to Pearl Engelman?

    3-And why did the accused not keep the dinim of Yichud? Do you keep the dinim of Yichud? Why? Are they neccessary? Why was keeping Hilchos Yichud less important to the accused than the dinim of heavy tights and People magazine?

  • #912561

    a mamin
    Participant

    Chalilavechas: I AM NOT LIVING IN DENIAL! Unfortunately, I know too well the level, or lack of it in today’s Jewish community.It is very sad to see how low people have fallen, there are many things to attribute to this horrible level of filth.I won’t get into that here.Just because you feel as many others on this sight that he is guilty does not mean that I have to agree with you.Nor does it mean that you have to bless my daughters, it makes me wonder where you are coming from?? The anti Satmer sentiment on this sight , is quite obvious, this will really help bring achdus back into Klal Yisroel, won’t it? You are as naive about Satmer as the unknown media who have absolutely have no idea what Chassidus or Satmer is all about!

  • #912562

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    This is an anonymous forum, How do you or anyones backround

    This is not about Satmar, Yeshivish or any chassidism. Its about abuse.

    There could very well be Satmars on this Forum who are happy with this verdict and dont want such a rasha in their comminity

  • #912563

    You are as naive about Satmer as the unknown media who have absolutely have no idea what Chassidus or Satmer is all about!

    So educate us. I could hear some good things about Satmar right now (besides for the usual “Bikur Cholim ladies”).

  • #912564

    chalilavchas
    Member

    a mamin, The anti Satmer sentiment on this sight , is quite obvious, this will really help bring achdus back into Klal Yisroel, won’t it? You are as naive about Satmer as the unknown media who have absolutely have no idea what Chassidus or Satmer is all about!

    How wrong you are! I have defended and praised Satmar to the skies on this and other forums. You should only know how many posts Ive posted against the infamous DF after she wrote her book mocking Satmar. I despise her! I have many Satmar relatives who I love.

    This has nothing to do with Satmar, this has to do with ONE individual who was accused, and the accuser is being defended by very respectable people, who would NOT be defending the accuser unless they were as sure as they can be of HIS guilt. This has nothing to do with Satmar as a whole.

    But, if theres the slightest complaint at all to Satmar, I ask you, if tomorrow a video would surface showing a highly respectable member of Satmar clearly molesting one or more individuals, do you think the Satmar administration would want the highly respected perp to be publicly accused and brought to justice? Im not sure. What do you think?

  • #912565

    BSD
    Member

    “It is the judgement that is given by instinct- the jury- like unthinking animals. May Hashem avenge the injustice soon.”

    Although there was no forensic evidence, the circumstantial evidence is suggestive. Establishing a court system is one of the 7 mitsvos bnei noach.

    “It seems juries in general are basing their decisions on emotions rather than on facts.”

    There are issues that upset people-yidden and goyim alike. It does not reflect well that he did not have a license, his office was in his house rather then in a professional office(and he admits that he kept a bed in the office), she did not have a choice-neither about going to counseling in general nor about choosing Weberman in particular. The menahel decides which girls must go to counseling on threat of expulsion, and they dictate which therapist they must go to. Weberman is a first cousin to the menahel. They must give $12,000 up front. This presents itself as bullying, and would upset anybody.

  • #912566

    iced
    Member

    chalila: 1) Engelman’s word has no value. 2) Mr. W never had yichud with anyone.

  • #912567

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Im amazed some are more willing to belive a Rasha than Rav Horowitz or Pearl Engelman

  • #912568

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    2) Mr. W never had yichud with anyone.

    No? Quick! Go tell the defense team! Maybe they can use that on appeal!

    “It never happened because my wife was with me through every therapy session I ever had with the defendant and any other female client.”

    Oh, wait — the defense never said that, did they?

    The Wolf

  • #912569

    WIY
    Member

    Please ignore iced maybe then he will go away.

  • #912570

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    A lot of people lurk on this blog who never post many even paste the links elsewhere.

    I speak to those people that people who condone this behavior are in the minority and not reflective of the majority.

    We are not afraid of being bullied.

  • #912571

    chalilavchas
    Member

    Btw, I dont think either of the Satmar Rebbes ever said Weberman hadnt molested. One Rebbe who was taped, put down the victim, possibly for reporting it. There was no mention of Weberman’s innocence.

    Has anyone ever heard either Satmar Rebbe say Weberman is innocent? How would they know for sure?

    I just spoke to a very choshuv person who has reliable information that the DA’s office has knowledge of 4 OTHER Weberman victims who spoke to them, but theyre not at liberty to divulge the names.

    Kol hamerachem al haachzariyim, sofo l’hisachzer al harachmoninim.

    Its happening here.

    Perhaps if the victim had a shpitzel and wore HEAVY TIGHTS she’d be trusted.

  • #912573

    Health
    Participant

    Syag Lchochma -“Tell it to me, and I will tell you if its Loshon Hara”

    Yes, speaking bad about Weberman is LH!

    “All those who say he is innocent – If you say that we don’t have proof and shouldn’t call him guilty, I will agree, as long as you don’t call him innocent either.”

    As a matter of fact, I don’t think he is guilty or innocent. They never proved their case. If they would have brought even one other victim -then I’d agree that he is guilty.

    Innocent until proven guilty doesn’t apply in this country where e/o judging it up is bias.

  • #912574

    Health
    Participant

    chalilavchas -“I just spoke to a very choshuv person who has reliable information that the DA’s office has knowledge of 4 OTHER Weberman victims who spoke to them, but theyre not at liberty to divulge the names.”

    As far as I’m concerned, until they get up on the witness stand and are cross-examined – their claims mean nothing. I’m not saying he’s innocent, but with the some legal knowledge that I posess, I wonder why the DA took this to trial without waiting for others to join along. The answer is simple, he knew the Jury would convict the Guy. Why? Forget about that he’s Frum, Juries almost always go after their emotions. The DA didn’t think for a second that a Middle Aged man would be believed over a young girl – in a case of – he says -she says – Poor Girl.

    The fact that he was convicted on such a minute amount of circumstantial evidence and we have many cases of murderers let go even when there is much more evidence shows the failure of the Jury system.

  • #912575

    Health
    Participant

    BSD -“Although there was no forensic evidence, the circumstantial evidence is suggestive. Establishing a court system is one of the 7 mitsvos bnei noach.”

    Stop with the Tzidkus of the Goyim already. Part of those 7 Mitzvos is that they have no jurisdiction over Yidden.

    “There are issues that upset people-yidden and goyim alike. It does not reflect well that he did not have a license, his office was in his house rather then in a professional office(and he admits that he kept a bed in the office), she did not have a choice-neither about going to counseling in general nor about choosing Weberman in particular. The menahel decides which girls must go to counseling on threat of expulsion, and they dictate which therapist they must go to. Weberman is a first cousin to the menahel. They must give $12,000 up front. This presents itself as bullying, and would upset anybody.”

    I grant you these are all problems, including the taking of Tzedaka money to purchase women’s undergarments. But e/o knows he wasn’t on trial for these things. He was on trial for molestation and nothing I’ve seen so far is even close to a “smoking gun” that makes the circumstantial evidence against him very strong.

  • #912577

    WIY
    Member

    Health

    Wow. Amazing how far you go to defend this mushchis and yet when you see someone in a restaurant without a sheitel without speaking to her or her husband and knowing anything about their situation you are ready to hang them on the gallows. You really are quite the special individual. I guess sheitel is yehareg val yavor but not molesting a niddah, eishes ish, yichud, gezel from a tzeddakah and all the other things this scum of the earth did. I really don’t know where some people get their moral compass these days. There was a fair trial she was cross examined extensively. The case is as solid as it can be under the circumstances. Baruch Hashem a serial child rapist has been taken off the streets of williamsburg.

  • #912578

    chalilavchas
    Member

    Health, you feel Weberman might be innocent? OK, have the most attractive of your female relatives visit with the poor fellow, behind closed doors with three locks, with a video camera of course. Lets see if all he does is speak of the importance of heavy tights and danger of secular magazines.

    Perhaps then you’ll have the evidence you need.

  • #912579

    Health
    Participant

    WIY -“Health –

    Wow.”

    I’m not going to get into it with you, but I believe the Torah says to be “Melamed Es Kol Odom (Jew only) L’caf Zecus”. This goes very far if you look in the Gemorah.

    You would be correct about this woman also, but since I was talking about whether her Geyrus was Kosher, meaning she could be a Goy – there is no Inyan to be Melamed Zecus.

    I just actually follow Torah priniciples, not like others that it’s just mouth exercise!

  • #912580

    Health
    Participant

    chalilavchas -“Health, you feel Weberman might be innocent?”

    Wrong, I don’t know if he is innocent or guilty! I believe in a concept called Innocent Until PROVEN Guilty. Novel idea, No?

    “OK, have the most attractive of your female relatives visit with the poor fellow, behind closed doors with three locks, with a video camera of course. Lets see if all he does is speak of the importance of heavy tights and danger of secular magazines.

    Perhaps then you’ll have the evidence you need.”

    Your Hatred to Chassidishe Men is quite obvious. Do you think that this girl was the only girl Weberman counselled? There were hundreds, if not thousands. So you/they claim they have a few more victims. After their testimonies with cross-exam I’ll decide innocent or guilty. But right now -why her did he abuse and not hundreds others? Perhaps she was out for revenge because he had evidence against her boyfriend with something called Statutory Blank?

  • #912581

    I just actually follow Torah priniciples, not like others that it’s just mouth exercise!

    To quote myself:

    Chossid Shoite!!! He at the very least has the Din of a Safek Roidef, and everyone is mechuyav to be mefarsem the fact. Haven’t you heard of Gedaliah Ben Achikam?

    Don’t get all “frum” trying to go kneged Halacha.

    I can’t understand what you are thinking.

  • #912582

    chalilavchas
    Member

    Health,

    Your Hatred to Chassidishe Men is quite obvious.

    Wrong! Chassidishe Men? Only the arrogant, seemingly guilty ones, who feel they dont have to answer to anyone! Im in awe of the heroic Rosenberg. Seems to me he’s Chassidish, or do you feel he’s not a man, so he doesnt count?

    Health, kindly address why you think Weberman didnt have any interest in keeping Hilchos Yichud if he was so stringent on other Halachos, and why you think Satmar was ok with this?

    There is no debate that he took the girl on a long trip alone, because he wanted an apology from the mother for complaining about it.

    There is no debate on his not keeping Hilchos Yichud, only on how many locks he locked.

    He and they did themselves in. Aizehu Chacham HaRoeh es Hanolad.

  • #912583

    uneeq
    Member

    Chalilah: “OK, have the most attractive of your female relatives visit with the poor fellow, behind closed doors with three locks, with a video camera of course. Lets see if all he does is speak of the importance of heavy tights and danger of secular magazines.”

    It would obviously be assur to visit one who is chashud for arayos in such a manner. Though, being chashud doesn’t mean one is guilty (or innocent.)

  • #912584

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Its amazing that some think its a bigger Averiah to read People magazine than violate laws of Yichud, and someone should be put in Cherem for reading people magazine but become a hero for taking a 15 year old on a road trip

  • #912585

    Health, kindly address why you think Weberman didnt have any interest in keeping Hilchos Yichud if he was so stringent on other Halachos, and why you think Satmar was ok with this?

    Since her stockings were less than 90 Denier, she has a Din Goy. Yichud with a Goy is only a Takana of Hillel, who was an obvious Tzioni (since he traveled to Israel from Bavel), and the V’Yoel Moshe was M’vatel all Tzionish Takanas.

    Pashut.

  • #912586

    Health
    Participant

    chalilavchas -“Wrong! Chassidishe Men? Only the arrogant, seemingly guilty ones, who feel they dont have to answer to anyone! Im in awe of the heroic Rosenberg. Seems to me he’s Chassidish, or do you feel he’s not a man, so he doesnt count?”

    I dunno. Are you him?

    “Health, kindly address why you think Weberman didnt have any interest in keeping Hilchos Yichud if he was so stringent on other Halachos, and why you think Satmar was ok with this?”

    I never said this guy was an outstanding Jew. I just said I’ve not seen any proof of his guilt.

    “There is no debate that he took the girl on a long trip alone, because he wanted an apology from the mother for complaining about it.”

    He said he also had his wife there. How do you know he is lying?

    “There is no debate on his not keeping Hilchos Yichud, only on how many locks he locked.”

    Do you believe in the Torah? Even by a Soitah where the woman was warned Not to have Yichud and she did anyway with Eidim -it just makes a Sofek. So we test her. She in no way is guilty after Yichud. So how are you sure he is guilty after Yichud?

    “He and they did themselves in. Aizehu Chacham HaRoeh es Hanolad.”

    Sorry, they convicted him on a very weak circumstantial case. The Anthony case was extremly strong, but still she was found innocent. How do you coinicide the two?

  • #912587

    Health
    Participant

    GAW -“To quote myself:

    Chossid Shoite!!! He at the very least has the Din of a Safek Roidef, and everyone is mechuyav to be mefarsem the fact. Haven’t you heard of Gedaliah Ben Achikam?

    Don’t get all “frum” trying to go kneged Halacha.

    I can’t understand what you are thinking.”

    Simple – even if he is a Rodef – all the Torah requires is stopping him. Here at the most it’s a Sofek. I don’t know if a vindictive Freye young girl can even make it that, but let’s say she can. So he never was accused outside this setting of therapist -so the Torah wouldn’t allow him to play therapist anymore. Btw, he shouldn’t have been doing this in the firstplace. There is no reason to think he would go lure people from the streets and therefore needs to be put away for life. To make that jump is Keneged any Daas Torah.

    And my personal opinion is – he’s a fool, but not a molester.

    I could be proven wrong – if many more victims testify against him.

  • #912588

    BSD
    Member

    Health “I grant you these are all problems, including the taking of Tzedaka money to purchase women’s undergarments. But e/o knows he wasn’t on trial for these things. He was on trial for molestation and nothing I’ve seen so far is even close to a “smoking gun” that makes the circumstantial evidence against him very strong.”

    Point well taken. I was addressing your point that there was emotional bias involved and that antisemitism played a significant role in the verdict. I am merely pointing out that this was not necessarily antisemitism. Bullying is universally despised.

    Bear in mind that she was cross examined for a combined total of 14 hours by a highly competent, well paid attorney, and he could not catch her on a single inconsistency.

    iced-Just out of curiosity, throughout tenach and jewish history there were despicable people-some of them wearing all shmoinah begadim (literally). On what basis do you state with such certainty that he is innocent beyond a shadow of a doubt?

  • #912589

    There is no reason to think he would go lure people from the streets and therefore needs to be put away for life. To make that jump is Keneged any Daas Torah.

    That’s right, because he killed with an AK47 doesn’t mean if you give him a revolver instead of a loaded AK47 that he won’t shoot it.

    If you want to trust your life to that, you really are a Chosid Shoite.

  • #912590

    iced
    Member

    BSD: 1) Actually she was found to have made inconsistent statements on the stand that differed from her police statement. 2) As a Jew, you are required to provide him the benefit of the doubt and the presumption of innocence. Dan lkaf zchus. (A non-Jewish court verdict does not change that fact.)

  • #912591

    achosid
    Participant
  • #912592

    Mammele
    Participant

    Can everybody please stop with the buying underwear. These stores sell loads of other stuff (shabbos & everyday robes, skirts, turbans, tshirts/shells, even kids’ robes, not to mention nightgowns, morning robes…) which probably make up the bulk of their sales. Am I missing something here?

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