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1. WolfishMusings
   The Wolf

   To the fellows who daven in the shul close to my house...

   Yes, I know that you are all learned yidden who follow halacha meticulously, wear proper hats and jackets during davening and could easily quote gemarahs, rishonim and achronim that I've never heard of. I fully acknowledge that I am a literal midget compared to the lot of you in terms of personal piety, fear of Heaven and Torah knowledge.

   As such, I understand that even though I think you're doing wrong that there must be an actual heter for all the talking that goes on in shul during davening. There must be some obscure opinion that I am not aware of that allows you to talk during daven and even learning. I also know that being the giants of Torah and Yahadus that you are (compared to me), my tefillah is completely and utterly unimportant compared to your talking (doesn't Rashi say that even the simple talking of tzadikim is precious to HaShem?) is far more important than my davening. God probably doesn't really want to hear from a rasha like me (what else would you call someone who is chosed b'k'shairin of his tzadikim), so it's probably better that I can't concentrate on my tefillos anyway.

   I also realize that it's highly hypocritical of me to even consider taking you to task for this. After all, although I am very makpid on talking during davening, I often disturb everyone by talking during laining. Yes, I know that talking during laining is assur, but I'm curious how you would know about my actions in this regard, since none of you daven in the shul that I usually daven in when there is laining?

   So, I thank you all very much for protecting HaShem from the tefillos of this lowlife and for educating me that there is a heter to talk during davening. Don't worry... I won't make use of this heter until I find it myself. But at least you've spurred me on to a quest of learning to find it.

   The Wolf

   Posted 2 years ago #

2. WolfishMusings
   The Wolf

   here must be some obscure opinion that I am not aware of that allows you to talk during daven and even learning.

   Sorry, this line got messed up. It should have read:

   ... that allows you to talk during davening about politics, what your wives are making for dinner, sports, and even learning.

   The Wolf

   Posted 2 years ago #

3. Chevrah Adas Korach
   Member

   Two ways for me to be higher than you.

   1. Climb onto a chair.
   2. knock you down.

   this thread has chosen 2

   Posted 2 years ago #

4. WolfishMusings
   The Wolf

   Two ways for me to be greater than you.

   this thread has chosen 2

   Actually, I've chosen to knock myself down. Also I'm not trying to be greater than anyone else. I readily acknowledge that I'm worse than everyone else.

   The Wolf

   Posted 2 years ago #

5. HIE
   pops/son/little bro joint acct

   wolf, you have a very solid point. a certain shul i used to daven in sometimes on shabbos there are people in the shul that come just to talk. why do they come just make a club where they can sit and shmooze. why do they have to come to shul and shmooze during davening when possibly other people are trying to daven. These people may be very learned people, but wolf, i argue with you on one point, their yiras shamayim can't possibly be that strong. If a guy can sit there shmoozing during chazaras hashatz where the mechaber says on talking during chazaras hashatz "gadol avono minso" "the sin is too big to carry", his yiras shamayim can't be too strong. And kal vachomer by kadish which is the most holy part of davening, people just sit there shmoozing! this is beyond me.

   Posted 2 years ago #

6. Chevrah Adas Korach
   Member

   sorry wolf. why you telling us they "all learned yidden who follow halacha meticulously, wear proper hats and jackets during davening and could easily quote gemarahs, rishonim and achronim that I've never heard of".

   then u tell us how bad they are. we will take ur word at it.
   ___

   u just wanna feel and look good at their expense. enough

   Posted 2 years ago #

7. WolfishMusings
   The Wolf

   I disagree HIE. They are all far more learned than me and they are more m'dakdek in mitzvos than I (for starters, they wear a hat to davening, I don't). They must know of a heter if they are doing it. It's only through my ignorance that I don't know it -- and only through my wickedness that I am even suspecting them of doing wrong.

   The Wolf

   Posted 2 years ago #

8. WolfishMusings
   The Wolf

   then u tell us how bad they are. we will take ur word at it.

   On the contrary. I am sure that they have solid halachic grounds on which to stand. You obviously did not read my OP carefully. It is *I* who am the one who is doing to sin of being choshed b'k'sharim and in valuing my davening (which is worthless anyway) more than the sicha of tzadikim.

   The Wolf

   Posted 2 years ago #

9. HIE
   pops/son/little bro joint acct

   wolf, lets get down to it, stop being sarcastic. there is no heter for this whatsoever.

   Posted 2 years ago #

10. Chevrah Adas Korach
    Member

    "It is *I* who am the one who is doing to sin of being choshed b'k'sharim and in valuing my davening (which is worthless anyway) more than the sicha of tzadikim."

    and its that same *you* who is valuing your feeling and sounding good (which is worth anyway) more than the good name of Jews who dress properly for davening.

    Posted 2 years ago #

11. WolfishMusings
    The Wolf

    No sarcasm at all. I meant every word sincerely.

    Trust me, when I use sarcasm, I'll let you know.

    The Wolf

    Posted 2 years ago #

12. WolfishMusings
    The Wolf

    and its that same *you* who is valuing your feeling and sounding good (which is worth anyway) more than the good name of Jews who dress properly for davening.

    I believe you misspelled "worthless." :)

    In any event, it doesn't matter. If you want to think that I did this just to knock other people down, go ahead. I can't change what you believe. I can only tell you that you're wrong. I most certainly don't "feel good." I most certainly don't hold myself higher than anyone else. And I most certainly don't engage in pot shots at people just to knock them down.

    The Wolf

    Posted 2 years ago #

13. ZeesKite
    Aquilone Dolce

    It is NOT ALLOWED. Period. The fact that it is so wide-spread does not make it permissible! It SHOULD cause pain to a sincere Yid praying there. If it interrupts your concentration, double that! I, for one, do understand your anguish and frustration. I daven in a shul that has absolutely NO TALKING - from beginning to end. When in another one, it does grate at my nerves.

    Two ideas come to my head (klain-kepig); try what it says (in halacha?) to scream and rebuke them. Maybe come prepared to shul with a printed placard stating the halacha. Keep it by your place, quietly. Second option, if all else fails, try to block out all distractions, know before who YOU stand. Then realize that all the yapping is their problem NOT YOURS.

    btw It is permissible to don a hat and jacket in deference and awe for HaShem when davening. It's called הכן לקראת אלקיך , don't want to sound scholarly, but that's what they taught me.

    Posted 2 years ago #

14. WolfishMusings
    The Wolf

    to scream and rebuke them.

    I don't rebuke anyone except my kids (whom I have direct responsibility for) and myself. I definitely will not scream at another person (I can't even count how many years it's been since I screamed at anyone -- definitely not since my early teens).

    I actually confronted someone a few weeks ago and immediately regretted it afterwards. So, I will not be doing so again in the future.

    btw It is permissible to don a hat and jacket in deference and awe for HaShem when davening.

    I never said or even implied that they were wrong for doing so.

    The Wolf

    Posted 2 years ago #

15. ZeesKite
    Aquilone Dolce

    If I'm not mistaken, I think halacha says one should confront / rebuke in this instance. There is a 'ptur' if you'll be harmed (physically?).

    Posted 2 years ago #

16. Chevrah Adas Korach
    Member

    "In any event, it doesn't matter. If you want to think that I did this just to knock other people down, go ahead. I can't change what you believe. I can only tell you that you're wrong. I most certainly don't "feel good." I most certainly don't hold myself higher than anyone else. And I most certainly don't engage in pot shots at people just to knock them down."

    Why was it brought to the coffee room?

    Only *they* can explain themselves. u know that

    Posted 2 years ago #

17. WolfishMusings
    The Wolf

    If I'm not mistaken, I think halacha says one should confront / rebuke in this instance. There is a 'ptur' if you'll be harmed (physically?).

    I don't believe they are doing wrong halachically. I'm sure they have solid halachic grounds on which to stand (of which I am not aware, but then again, I am not well-learned) and that it is I who am in the wrong.

    The Wolf

    Posted 2 years ago #

18. WolfishMusings
    The Wolf

    Why was it brought to the coffee room?

    Because it's a place I can vent about things like this that bother me... even if I have no halachic grounds for being bothered.

    The Wolf

    Posted 2 years ago #

19. HIE
    pops/son/little bro joint acct

    there's also a p'tur if your'e not doing it completely l'shem shamayim

    Posted 2 years ago #

20. ZeesKite
    Aquilone Dolce

    At the very least just show them this thread!

    Posted 2 years ago #

21. WolfishMusings
    The Wolf

    there's also a p'tur if your'e not doing it completely l'shem shamayim

    See my response above. There is no reason for me to rebuke them, so I don't need a p'tur of any kind.

    The Wolf

    Posted 2 years ago #

22. Chevrah Adas Korach
    Member

    vent 1: i am very bothered by chit chat in shul.....

    vent 2: people who are better than me, dress.. can learn.. are more knowledgable, talk in shul.

    vent 1: authentic. vent 2: i say they are better, but *i* am realy *better*

    Posted 2 years ago #

23. amichai
    Member

    just curious because I am not from ny. are the shuls there extremly large? we have a kehilla of about 100 men and there is no talking during davening or laining. are you speaking of shuls with over 300 pple etc? my only advice is to speak to the rav and he will speak to the kahall at large or find a smaller beis medrash even if you have to walk a little further to get there.

    Posted 2 years ago #

24. HIE
    pops/son/little bro joint acct

    chevra adas korach, WELL PUT!!

    Posted 2 years ago #

25. WolfishMusings
    The Wolf

    vent 2: i say they are better, but *i* am realy *better*

    Again, I cannot change what you believe. I can only tell you what I know to be the truth, and that is that I do NOT hold myself to be better than anyone, that I am serious about what I wrote above and that I am NOT doing this to make myself "feel good." Trust me when I say that I feel anything but "good" at the moment.

    If you choose not to believe me, then you are free to come out and simply call me a liar. You'll be wrong, of course, but you're free to say it anyway.

    The Wolf

    Posted 2 years ago #

26. WolfishMusings
    The Wolf

    my only advice is to speak to the rav

    A. The rav was not there for Pesach.
    B. It's not my shul (i.e. I am only a guest, not a member) so I have no right to complain.
    C. I'm the one in the wrong here anyway, so the point about complaining is moot.

    or find a smaller beis medrash even if you have to walk a little further to get there.

    The shul I go to when there is laining doesn't have any talking at all during davening (except for when I disturb people with my talking during laining), but it's much further away and just not convenient to go to all the time.

    The Wolf

    Posted 2 years ago #

27. Chevrah Adas Korach
    Member

    "If you choose not to believe me, then you are free to come out and simply call me a liar."

    i wont get into the *you*, just the action. the action of feeling good by belittling is wrong. the *you* is non of my buisness

    ___

    talking by davening is wrong. what the talkers know, wear or who they are is non of our business.

    i tell u about them, its them i am bothered about and not the talking

    Posted 2 years ago #

28. HaLeiVi
    Plays the aeolian harp by air

    In what way do you disturb them with your talking during Laining if they don't talk and actually want to hear every word you say?

    Posted 2 years ago #

29. DaasYochid
    a singular mind

    Why don't you just ask one of these big talmidei chachamim outright where the source is for the heter to talk during davening? Tell him "Torah he v'tzorich ani lilmod".

    Posted 2 years ago #

30. WolfishMusings
    The Wolf

    i wont get into the *you*, just the action. the action of feeling good by belittling is wrong. the *you* is non of my buisness

    Fair enough. I guess we just have to agree to disagree. You believe that I am belittling. I am not.

    i tell u about them, its them i am bothered about and not the talking

    I have no idea what this means. But that's probably just because I'm stupid.

    The Wolf

    Posted 2 years ago #

31. WolfishMusings
    The Wolf

    Why don't you just ask one of these big talmidei chachamim outright where the source is for the heter to talk during davening? Tell him "Torah he v'tzorich ani lilmod".

    Because I am non-confrontational. I actually confronted someone about talking during davening a few weeks back and immediately regretted it.

    Besides none of them want a "talmid she'aino hagun" anyway.

    The Wolf

    Posted 2 years ago #

32. WolfishMusings
    The Wolf

    In what way do you disturb them with your talking during Laining if they don't talk and actually want to hear every word you say?

    I'm not sure I'm able to parse this question. Can you perhaps restate it, please?

    In any event, keep in mind that these are two different shuls. The shul where the talking during davening happens is not the same shul that I go to when there is laining.

    The Wolf

    Posted 2 years ago #

33. wanderingchana
    expat

    I think some of you are missing the point. Why aren't they playing the part they're dressed for?

    DY has a good idea...

    Posted 2 years ago #

34. Chevrah Adas Korach
    Member

    "i tell u about them, its them i am bothered about and not the talking

    I have no idea what this means. But that's probably just because I'm stupid."

    i will rewrite it for u.

    ---
    talking durring davening is wrong. what the talkers know, wear or who they are, is non of our business.

    if i tell u about talking, i am bothered by talking. if i tell u about them, then its them i am bothered about and not the talking

    Posted 2 years ago #

35. DaasYochid
    a singular mind

    Why don't you just ask one of these big talmidei chachamim outright where the source is for the heter to talk during davening? Tell him "Torah he v'tzorich ani lilmod".

    Because I am non-confrontational. I actually confronted someone about talking during davening a few weeks back and immediately regretted it.

    I'm not suggesting a confrontation, just a simple question, as a talmid might ask a rebbe.

    Posted 2 years ago #

36. HaLeiVi
    Plays the aeolian harp by air

    My question was addressing was only about what you mentioned in passing, that you bother people during Leining with your talking. You also mentiion that in that shul there is no other talking. My question is, in what way are you disturbing them, what are they trying to do that you interrupted? As far as I understand, everyone wants to hear you talk.

    Posted 2 years ago #

37. WolfishMusings
    The Wolf

    if i tell u about talking, i am bothered by talking. if i tell u about them, then its them i am bothered about and not the talking

    I disagree. I am telling you about their talking. I simply brought the rest up as a manner of introduction to explain that I'm sure that they are right and that I'm wrong and yet, I find it frustrating anyways. If you don't believe me, then fine... just let it be then -- but that's the way it is.

    The Wolf

    Posted 2 years ago #

38. WolfishMusings
    The Wolf

    I'm not suggesting a confrontation, just a simple question, as a talmid might ask a rebbe.

    That, too, is a confrontation... albeit of a lesser nature. My almost-unfailing policy is to never correct anyone (other than my children). The few times that I did do so, I almost always regretted it afterward.

    The Wolf

    Posted 2 years ago #

39. WolfishMusings
    The Wolf

    As far as I understand, everyone wants to hear you talk.

    You might think that. It might even be true. They also might just be hoping that I shut up and are just too polite to say so. But whatever, that's not really the main point of my rant anyway.

    The Wolf

    Posted 2 years ago #

40. DaasYochid
    a singular mind

    My almost-unfailing policy is to never correct anyone

    I'm not talking about correcting anyone, I'm suggesting asking for a source.

    Posted 2 years ago #

41. Avram in MD
    Avram in the CR

    WolfishMusings,

    Please forgive me this rant on your rant...

    Do you HONESTLY believe that there is an obscure heter for talking about mundane subjects during davening? Yes or no?

    I don't think you do, otherwise, you would not have titled this thread a rant. Please answer, but I'm guessing you're not going to bother responding to this post.

    Almost everyone here could see the point you were trying to make, and it was a good point, but then you branched off into the absurd.

    I have tried to make sense of your polemical style, which follows a pattern of:

    1.) I am bothered by [insert a clearly halachically wrong behavior] that is done by people who are makpid on the external Yeshivish customs (e.g., hat and jacket).

    2.) I am not makpid on those same external Yeshivish customs.

    Left here, it is a fairly strong attack against hypocrisy. Those same people who would never come to davening without a hat and jacket because it would be "wrong" (not adhering to a custom) then talk in shul (an outright aveira). Touchee! But then you invariably continue:

    3.) Since those who wear a hat and jacket are superior to me because I don't wear a hat and jacket, then [insert a clearly halachically wrong behavior] must be somehow correct and I am too unlearned to see how.

    OK, a somewhat strange thing to say, but it still fits into your attack on hypocrisy if taken as dripping with sarcasm. Touchee again! However the switch to the "twilight zone" occurs:

    4.) Drop points 1 and 2 and argue that you are completely and honestly serious about point 3.

    Why do you do this? You as well as the rest of us know what the gedolim say about talking in shul (if you didn't, which I doubt, an example from the S"A was posted above), so your contention that you honestly believe there is actually a heter for talking in shul collapses like a house of cards. So I am left with the question: why do you want me, a reader, to accept your point 4?

    I'm beginning to suspect that you're hoping someone not paying close enough attention falls into the logical snare you have set, and asks or tells you something along the lines of: if you really believe that these men have some sort of heter for talking in shul, then perhaps you should not be bothered by the talking? That statement is the logical endgame of this absurd line of thinking, but it is fundamentally wrong because the premise is wrong.

    Then three months from now, when someone else posts a rant against talking in shul, you can triumphantly trot out: I posted the same thing three months ago, and was told that I was wrong and to stop being bothered by it!

    I am sorry that you have had so much trouble at this Yeshivish-style shul. I really, honestly believe that some of the "stuff" you are encountering there is not representative of the entire Yeshivish world. I also don't feel that the Yeshivish world is "out to get you" despite what you may or may not believe. If it was, you wouldn't have to lay such elaborate traps to get the condemnation that you seek as proof. On the contrary, you seem well liked in this forum. I enjoy most of your posts, which is why I think I get so bothered by threads like this one.

    All the best!

    Posted 2 years ago #

42. HIE
    pops/son/little bro joint acct

    heavy duty argument here...

    Posted 2 years ago #

43. WolfishMusings
    The Wolf

    Avram,

    That's a fair criticism. Your point here:

    4.) Drop points 1 and 2 and argue that you are completely and honestly serious about point 3.

    ... is well taken. However, sometimes that is how I am made to feel. Is it logical? Granted, it is probably not. Yet, despite any other appearances, I do have emotions and sometimes act very strongly on them, even if the end result is not completely logical. Consider it a failing on my part.

    I posted the same thing three months ago, and was told that I was wrong and to stop being bothered by it!

    No one has said that here, so obviously I cannot trot that out.

    I am sorry that you have had so much trouble at this Yeshivish-style shul.

    It's not that. Heck, the shul that I daven in when there is laining is a largely yeshivish-style shul with no talking... and I have never once ranted against it. On the contrary, it's a warm welcoming atmosphere where people respect each others' davening, do not talk or disturb and where I can actually hear the chazzan when he speaks. In other words, it's not the fact that it's yeshivish style... it's the fact that they talk during davening. Had they been a chassidish shteeble, a Young Israel, an MO shul or anything else, I'd be just as bothered.

    The Wolf

    Posted 2 years ago #

44. mdd
    Member

    Chevra Adas Korach, where do you get this false shitos that one is not allowed to condemn ba'alei aveira? Look in "Chafets Chaim"!!

    Posted 2 years ago #

45. cherrybim
    Member

    "The rav was not there for Pesach."

    Where was he? And if the rav were there, would the problem have been resolved?

    Posted 2 years ago #

46. WolfishMusings
    The Wolf

    Chevra Adas Korach, where do you get this false shitos that one is not allowed to condemn ba'alei aveira? Look in "Chafets Chaim"!!

    In his defense, where did you get that from his position? He clearly condemned me for what he perceived as wrongdoing by me.

    The Wolf

    Posted 2 years ago #

47. charliehall
    Member

    " I know that you are all learned yidden who follow halacha meticulously"

    If they are talking during tefillah or the torah reading, they aren't following halachah meticulously.

    Posted 2 years ago #

48. WolfishMusings
    The Wolf

    Where was he? And if the rav were there, would the problem have been resolved?

    I don't know. And considering that I'm not a member, he is not required to answer to me for his absence.

    Besides, your rav *never* goes away for a Yom Tov or Shabbos?

    The Wolf

    Posted 2 years ago #

49. Avram in MD
    Avram in the CR

    However, sometimes that is how I am made to feel.

    By whom? Posters in this forum? People in the real world? I know none of us has a full picture of your experience, but it seems from your writing that a lot of the "my way or the highway" attitudes that appear to trouble you so much originate from teenagers or teenagers-at-heart. From dealings with teenagers in the present day to high-school experiences you've had. I never had the opportunity to attend a Yeshiva for high school; my only experience is with a public school. It seems, however, that there are unfortunately some common attitudes between both environments. For example, in a public school setting, one who does not wish to be ostracized must follow the clothing and other "minhagim" of the "in crowd." B"H in the Yeshivos decent clothing and lofty pursuits are what's considered "cool", but despite that I do feel that the "in crowd" vs. "out crowd" attitude must go.

    When my family and I first moved into our community, we met some extremely warm and friendly people. We also had some unfortunate experiences, rudeness, standoffishness, etc. The latter was extremely scary to us at first, since we were still relatively new to the "religious scene", but we talked extensively with our Rav and let him guide us. We have B"H made some dear friends from the warm and friendly group, and we stay out of the way of the rudeness (and I believe that if they truly knew the effects of their words or actions on us, they would have acted differently). If we encounter a situation where someone tells us, "don't you know that you should X", or "I think the Y you are doing is wrong", we thank them for the information and then take it to our Rav if needed and ask him what we should do.

    Ultimately I have learned that most people are more concerned with what I or others think of them than vice versa.

    I do have emotions and sometimes act very strongly on them, even if the end result is not completely logical. Consider it a failing on my part.

    I don't think emotions are a failing. Neither is all illogical behavior necessarily a failing. It was just saddening to me to sense that you felt hurt by a Yeshivish person or persons, and were coming to YWN to try and get others to heap more coals onto yourself.

    No one has said that here, so obviously I cannot trot that out.

    I was referencing a previous thread about loud and out-of-sync davening. In retrospect, I probably should not have brought that into this discussion.

    It's not that. Heck, the shul that I daven in when there is laining is a largely yeshivish-style shul with no talking... and I have never once ranted against it. On the contrary, it's a warm welcoming atmosphere where people respect each others' davening, do not talk or disturb and where I can actually hear the chazzan when he speaks.

    That's amazing that you have found a shul like that. I wonder if it would be worth it to trade in stress for footsteps and go to that shul for all of your davening on Shabbos?

    Or perhaps get an associate membership at the other shul so you feel more empowered to say something about the atmosphere?

    In other words, it's not the fact that it's yeshivish style... it's the fact that they talk during davening. Had they been a chassidish shteeble, a Young Israel, an MO shul or anything else, I'd be just as bothered.

    I apologize for mis-reading you. I interpreted your analysis of the attitude in that shul to be based on this portion of your opening salvo:

    I know that you [...] wear proper hats and jackets during davening and could easily quote gemarahs, rishonim and achronim that I've never heard of.

    Posted 2 years ago #

50. TikkunHatzot
    Member

    Speaking of talking while davening, has anyone been to a Sephardic or Morrocan shul? They take this issue very seriously...I tell you this both as an interesting fact & as a warning.

    Posted 2 years ago #

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