Yehareig V'al Yaavor?

“You’re arguing since you can carry her out of the pool so you should be able to carry her to a cot if she fell asleep on the kitchen floor”

Im arguing if its yehareg vehal yaavor objectively to shake a woman’s hand, you would have to sooner give up your life than shake her hand. Thats what it means.

“It is question of how to understand the Rambam.”

Thanks I always read the rambam that its subjective based on neheneh b’kiruv basar- thats what al tekarev is based on. But ill look into it. Anyway, that would explain the psak I was told.

Benignuman, I am not denying that there is another shittah, just explaining the shittah which assers.

Joseph

1) must does not equal yeharg veal yaavor

2) Rav Heineman pretty much explictly said that beshas hadchak. He also explictly said that he was following R’ Aaron’s view shaking a wonas hand was allowed.

Even if R’ Aaron didnt hold that way Rav Heneman definitely does.

So as to “Please cite any first-rate posek who disagrees with this strong position of the Chazon Ish, the Steipler and Rav Moshe amongst many others.””

so we have (at least) 2 who disagree with the “Strong position” of the Gedolim you mentioned.

Please note: you didnt ask for any posek who says lechatchila it is ok to run around shaking womans hand.

I’m not sure why you thought that. I was answering how a handshake could be derech chibah and YV”Y when other forms of contact are not.

Again see, what R’ Moshe wrote on this exact case; I don’t think it only applies if you hold a handshake is YV”Y.

Sam, see the teshuvah I keep referring to. Rav Moshe says there’s no makom l’chalek. Does anyone argue?

That’s not a chilluk between yoursef and others.

Right, so we’re agreeing that there’s no chilluk between himself and another person, and disagreeing with Sam.

Ben: But that might not be relevant. I always thought (and major Talmidei Chachamim agreed) that the point there is not about certain actions being inherent. It’s about everything between husband and wife being inherently Derech Chibah. That doesn’t shed any light on other actions between non-married people.

Daas,

Yes. I mixed up who was saying what.

Sam,

The Shulchan Aruch only considers it derech chiba for the man, because when it is the man who is sick (and his taiva is therefore limited) his wife can treat him if there is no one else available. Y”D 195:15.

edited

From Torah.org:

Question: Is it ever permitted to shake hands with a woman? Is there a dispensation to do so if otherwise one would suffer a substantial loss or would embarrass the woman, possibly causing a chillul Hashem?

There are, however, some situations where a handshake is offered as a matter of protocol, such as an introduction to a customer or an employer, to a doctor or to a distinguished politician. In these situations, the handshake is not a sign of affection, friendship or a personal relationship and would, theoretically, be permitted. Still, the poskim are in agreement that one must do whatever he can to avoid shaking hands under these circumstances as well. This is because the yetzer hara for arayos is overwhelming. An innocent handshake may lead to a casual embrace; a harmless introduction may blossom into a full-blown illicit relationship. It is extremely difficult to define what is and what is not derech chibah when it comes to a handshake, and it is, therefore, the consensus of the poskim to be stringent in this matter{6}.

Under extenuating circumstances, e.g., one would lose his job were he not to shake hands with a female customer, or if, by refusing an extended hand, one would publicly humiliate a prominent personality, there are some poskim who find some room for leniency to return a handshake, if the hand is proffered in a manner which is clearly not affectionate. All poskim agree that one must do whatever he can to avoid being caught in such a situation.

All of these halachos apply equally to men and women.

In Mishneh Halachos (6:223) Rav Menashe Klein is asked about shaking hands with a woman who offers her hand and it would be embarrassing to her if rebuffed. He says that the questioner maintains that although Rav Moshe Feinstein prohibited it even under these circumstances and he assurs it despite the fact some Bnei Torah are lenient in order not to embarrass the woman, claiming they heard this “heter” from a Rosh Yeshiva.

Rav Menashe Klein says that this is absolutely not a heter and should not be repeated even if it is true that a Rosh Yeshiva said it. Not embarrassing someone is not a sufficient reason to be oveir and “Abizrahu D’Giluy Arayos”; an ancillary issur to illicit relationships. With this nonsensical logic one can come to permit many issurim Chas V’Shalom.

The people who are Meikil to shake a woman’s hand rely not on the above heter but rather on the Shach (YD 195:20) who brings the Rambam that says touching a woman is only assur if it is Derech Taava V’Chiba, in way that is based on attraction. Rav Menashe Klein however disagrees with this heter and says that firstly many poskim hold like the Bais Yosef who disagrees with the Shach. Secondly the case of the Shach is a Doctor taking the pulse of a woman. Since it is in the course of his professional duty the Shach is lenient. In this case says Rav Menashe Klein, it is possible that even the Shach would prohibit it since although the intention is not Derech Chiba, the act is a cordial introductory act between the two participants and can lead to a relationship especially in the case of this particular aveira which has such a powerful affect on people.

He ends by saying that he who listens to this “Tavo Alav Bracha”!

Joseph: What I meant that it is forbidden to shake hands with any woman, regardless of her Jewishness or lack thereof.

mdd: And if he’s a goy there is also more room to be concerned that he means it derech chibah. So for a frum woman, that only leaves a frum Jewish man. And no frum Jewish man would be shaking hands with a frum Jewish woman stranger.

1. Somebody wondered if there is room to be lenient when declining a handshake causes embarrassment to the woman involved. I happen to think that there is no real embarrassment involved – there may be scorn, derision, perhaps anger, but very rarely true shame. But if there would be a situation of embarrassment – why does ????????? ?????? take precedence over ????????? ?????? ?????

2. Regarding what you quoted from R’ Menashe Klien that it is assur even though it isn’t derech chiba – don’t the poskim who asser handshakes take on that it is considered derech chiba?