Can someone explain to my why a mesechta like mesechta shabbos is not learnt as part of the typical yeshivish cycles? This is something that will teach us the yesodos of halachos that are nogeah all our lives. Certainly more than gittin and yevamos.
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Yeshivish Mesechtos
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Posted 6 months ago #
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The practice of learning "yeshivish mesechtos" is only about a hundred years old. The purpose was to hone the analytical skills of the yeshiva bochur, with the assumption that with these skills he can learn any mesechta or subject with success. The yeshivish mesechtos are chock full of difficult theoretical concepts and serve as fertile ground for sharpening the mind.
Whether one agrees with this system or not, the yeshiva boy does not get a ptur from learning other mesechtos or halachah. He is expected to use his "free" time or shorter sedorim to learn everything there is to learn.
Posted 6 months ago # -
The answer is that the main tachlis of the learning schedule in a Yeshivah is to teach boys how to learn, to hone their minds and give them the analytical skills necessary to understand gemara and rishonim properly. For this purpose the Yeshivishe mesechtos have been identified as best suited. Once these skills are properly developed, they can then be used all over Shas.
Otherwise instead of learning maseches Shabos as you suggested they should learn Hilchos Shabos.
Posted 6 months ago # -
Yeshivas nowadays are more interested in learning Lamdanus for some reason.Shabbos just doesnt have enough.Oy.
Posted 6 months ago # -
Why don't you ask simply, why don't yeshivos focus on halacha.
Posted 6 months ago # -
Rav Schachter quotes a reason for it because Kodem Matan Torah it would have been the only Masechtos the Avos and Yeshivas Shem V'eiver learned, because Dinei Mamonos (Nezikin) and Gilui Arayos (Nezikin) would have been the only real Lema'aseh Halachos.
Posted 6 months ago # -
The Maharam Schiff at the end of Bava Metzia mentions that in his yeshiva they went from Bava metzia to kesubos. Nashim-Nezikin is where the lomdus is.
Posted 6 months ago # -
its very sad that yeshivos dont focus on aliba d'hilchasa type learning.Its lomdus only.
Posted 6 months ago # -
As Sam2 above has pointed out, these Masechtos focus on issues of universal morality.
Before we can be good Jews we must first be good "Mentches".
One who takes the moral messages of Baba Kama to heart will be a better driver.
Likewise, learning about the obligations in Kesubos will make for better husbands.Posted 6 months ago # -
Shabbas is a kollel meshchta they learn kihilchata.
Posted 6 months ago # -
The ikar should be lilmod al menas laasos. To learn in order to do. Learning the source material to hilchos shabbos, or hilchos tefilla will teach you how to do the mitzvos correcttly.
Posted 6 months ago # -
BMG learned Shabbos last zman.
Posted 6 months ago # -
"Likewise, learning about the obligations in Kesubos will make for better husbands."
hmmm....better not, I'm not going to say it.
Posted 6 months ago # -
Kids who are just learning how to learn need to be allowed to let their mind roam free in order that they figure out how to learn.
If you would teach kids Gemara that is more geared "aliva d'hilchisa" you would have one of two problems: 1) You would limit their creative thinking skills due to inhibitions they would have about saying a shtickel that produces a halacha contrary to what they do all the time, or 2) You would have tenth grade shnuks making up halachos and doing things wrong.
In order to preclude both of these problems, and because Nashim/Nezikin does happen to have a lot of lomdus in in as many posters have already pointed out, it is worthwhile to stay out of "aliva d'hilchisa" sugyas until ones learning skills are honed and one truly "knows how to learn."
That being said, I do think that a guy who really does know how to learn and has been sitting in yeshiva for ten years is wasting his time sticking to the "yeshiva masechtos."
Posted 6 months ago # -
I think that this thread should be forwarded to the Gedolei Roshei Yeshiva immediately. There are comments here about the importance of what should be learned that they nust have surely missed. Let them change the derech halimud immediately to conform with these maamarie Chazal that are first being brought to light!!
Posted 6 months ago # -
Some chasidishe yeshivas do learn Shabbos.
Posted 6 months ago # -
I thought it was because they wanted to make a siyum within a year, something which can't be accomplished with shabbos
Posted 6 months ago # -
I think most people would agree that it's easier to make a siyum on Shabbos than to make a siyum on Bava Metzia or Kesubos, the twenty-five blatt difference notwithstanding (and I don't know what your hava amina is regarding Bava Basra).
Posted 6 months ago # -
Hey midwesterner. Take a chill pill. No one is ranking out roshei yeshivos - we are just discussing an age old topic of derech halimud.
Posted 6 months ago # -
I'm not so sure, I've been doing shabbos for 2 years already and haven't finished yet, whereas I was masayim both
Posted 6 months ago # -
The "Yeshiveishe Mesechtas" cycle is essentially a self fulfilling prophecy; meaning, since the Rebbe has mastered the "Yeshivishe Mesechtas", and not other Mesachtas, he was likely to teach the the ones he had mastered only.
By way of example: I was told, that for years, the standard programming language taught at Brooklyn College was "PL1" rather than "COBOL". Guess why? Because the professors teaching at Brooklyn College have been educated at Brooklyn College where they were taught "PL1". As the famous Talmudic dictum goes:
רבי לא שנאה, ר' חייא מנין לו?
(מסכת יבמות דף מג עמוד א)Posted 6 months ago # -
The book "In Their Shadow" vol. 1 mentions how someone spoke to the Chazon Ish about the yeshivos learning aliba dehilchesa instead of learning lomdus. The Chazon Ish turned it down, saying everyone must have a chance to become a gadol. The time for learning aliba dehilchesa is after one becomes a talmid chochom.
Posted 6 months ago # -
The Chofetz Chaim in his hakdama to the Mishna Brura he makes it clear that learning kodshim or tharoas is good but the ikar is learning to get to the halacha.He also brings the gemara in brachos(8a) which interperts a passuk of tehillim that Hashem loves places of halacha then all the shuls and batei midrashim of yaakov.
Posted 6 months ago # -
Rogatchover's assistant: I'm in Brooklyn, and my professors told me the same thing. Of course they're teaching C++ with objects late for the same reason...
Posted 6 months ago # -
the Chofatz Chaim writes in the hakdoma of the MEshna Berura, that Aliba Dhilchisa should be ones priority.
thats why Orach Chayim should be the first thins one should learn.
teh Shach in Hilchas Talmud Tora states that one is yotze Mitzavs Limud Hatora only by Learning Aliba Dhilchisa.Posted 6 months ago # -
Shabbos is the longest Masechta in Shas (in terms of # of words). And there are plenty of Sugyos in there just as complicated as in Nashim or Nezikin.
Posted 6 months ago # -
ItcheSrulik: I appreciate your corroboration of my statement.
תניא דמסייע לךPosted 6 months ago # -
There is nothing that occupies the yeshiva bochur more than what to learn and how to learn it. At a certain point, some of them realize that they spend so much time on the how and what that they don't get around to the learning itself. When you get older, you'll hopefully learn what you like and get on with it, without worrying about anything else.
Posted 6 months ago # -
This was also a major machlokes between Volozhin and Slabodka.
You find many more rishonim and achronim on nashim-nezikin than on moed. Clearly this is an old preference.
Posted 6 months ago # -
Chullin and Shabbos - both have Dibros Moshe on it. Dibros Moshe was taken from Reb Moshe ztl's shiurim. Does this mean it was part of MTJ's cycle in those years?
Posted 6 months ago # -
Sam2, what are the big sugyos in Shabbos?
Reb Moshe ZT"L had Dibros Moshe throughout shas. He wasn't limited by what his yeshiva did. If he was, he couldn't have been the poseik that he was.
Posted 6 months ago # -
Ragatchover: Just saying the issue is still around.
When I was in yeshiva both the variety (only a handful of perakim from the yeshivish mesechtos) and pace of learning (only moshiach takes longer) were so annoying that my chavrusos and I gave up and did our own thing. That turned out to lead to us covering a lot more than we would have otherwise, even if we learned Shabbos so maybe it wasn't such a bad thing after all.
Posted 6 months ago # -
I learned Shabbos in Yeshiva. It's becoming more popular.
Yes, Shabbos has many Geshmake Sugyos. The whole Hotza'a with the Gedarim of Hanachos and Bassar Gufo Garir, how to understand Kluta, and one-way Kluta. The whole Sugya of Ein Mischaven and Eino Tzarich Legufo, and many more.
The Me'iri, in his introduction to Avos says that even the Geonim had this concept of favored Masechtos. Actually, we find in the Gemara, too, that Reb Yehuda was not well aquainted in Uktzin. In the end of Horios it sounds like Rebbe Gamliel wasn't well versed in Uktzin, either, until he had to be.
By today, the purpose of a Bachur learning Gemara is to be able to understand what Reb Baruch Ber or Reb Chaim were referring to.
Posted 6 months ago # -
HaLeiVi: The point of those Gemaros was that Uktzin is the hardest Masechta. And I don't think the Gemara in Ta'anis says that he wasn't well-versed in it. Only that in the time of the Amora'im the Yeshivos in general had a better understanding of it.
Posted 6 months ago # -
Abaye said that they learn more.
Posted 6 months ago # -
I think that the topic has sort of changed to whether the preference is learning aliba d'hilchoso or lomdus.
My point is that one can find lomdus in any mesechta. True, some sugyas are harder than others. But there is still lomdus.
So the original question I had was that being that one can find lomdus in any mesechta, then why not kill 2 birds with one stone and teach them mesechtas which have a shaychus to their daily life in a lomdishe way?
Posted 6 months ago # -
I answered that question.
Posted 6 months ago #
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