Forum Replies Created
Is his wife showing up too early?
Is even showing up the problem?
Yes, after borchu.
Is there a מחיצה?
Why is he looking over there?
He’s looking for his wife.
(These questions remind me of the people who try to find the lomdus and farenfer all the stiros in Harry Potter)
“theres no crisis just a lack of bitachon”.
There are singles who say that, and people who have kids who need shidduchim.
They may be wrong, but automatically saying they’re insensitive is unfair.
Also, they’re right on an individual basis, just wrong that it’s not a societal problem.
Sort of difficult to usefully respond on a “global” search for a Rav who cold advise on some vague “spiritual” matter who has all the basic attributes one would hope for in a Rav.
What do you mean? The Gedolah Hador is available right here for the whole world!
Joseph, which part of “V’ein kan makom l’ha’arich” do you not understand? Perhaps ubiquitin could explain it to you. 😉
Different expectations for what a marriage is supposed to look like. V’ein kan makom l’ha’arich.
I should add that you say that we’ve combined the worst of both, but I don’t see how the modern system (which isn’t really much of a system) works any better, or would work for BMG type yeshiva bochurim and BY girls.
And I don’t think the chsssidish system, which does seem to work much better in terms of setting up matches, would work for American litvish style bochurim in terms of sholom bayis.
I think the first is more realistic
I think they’re both unrealistic.
I do hear your point, but it doesn’t seem to be the case that boys sit around for that long without dates, so I’m not sure that’s the big ikuv here.
In how long would you be willing to advocate trying something else (if either the age gap cant be closed, or if closing doesnt help)
What do you recommend? I think other than age gap, the problems plaguing the shidduch system are general societal problems which manifest themselves particularly strongly in shidduchim; they’re not problems specifically in the way shidduchim are done. I don’t necessarily think they’re any easier to solve than closing the age gap.
“As a pediatric neurologist and member of the American Medical Association, the American Academy of Pediatrics, the Child Neurology Society, the American Academy of Neurology and the American Neurological Association, I strongly support the importance of vaccines for all children. I have spoken with many parents of children with ASD over the years who feel strongly that their children developed ASD due to vaccines and I have vigorously defended the importance of vaccines as the best way to prevent many serious diseases”
Dr. A. Zimmerman
Though long can I expect to wait unti l real solutions are attempted?
Real solutions have been and are being attempted.
I think it is simplistic and while it would explain shidduch island or musical chairs with a fixed number of chairs and players it doesn’t explain the real world
You haven’t done a very good job of explaining why it’s not true in the real world, and haven’t really responded to my specific challenges to your assertion that it does not apply to the real world.
Thats a tough sell, you are advocating for a change that you admit is “very difficult” that would only “very possibly” actually help what the real problem is.
You are mischaracterizing my position. I think it would solve a great deal of the “real problem”.
I do think it’s very difficult to completely close the gap to the point where there won’t be any disparity, but it’s not an all or nothing proposition.
Perhaps he means property tax
Sam, what does that have to do with the freezer?
GH, no (at least not to the same extent), because the boys in EY generally get married younger.
while you are thinking about that, consider this how easy do you think it will be to cut out the disparity?
I think the way to cut out the disparity is to cut down the gap.
I think cutting down the gap is a very difficult thing to do.
If we cut out the disparity, but kept our current dating prices would there still be a crises
Our current dating practices include age gap, but I’ll assume you mean that we change the age of boys to a younger age, the boys marry older girls than current practice, or a combination.
The answer I believe is that we would still have some singles. We would certainly have fewer older single girls, and possibly fewer older single boys.
The reason I think we might even end up with fewer older single boys is because if we level the playing field somewhat, and take away some of the advantage boys currently have, we would very possibly cause the boys to have lower expectations, and that might help some of the tougher cases to get married.
Whether after these changes were affected we would still have a “crisis” depends on how you define crisis.
No because for boys age is less of an issue.
Do you think the age gap theory math is wrong, or deny that there’s an age gap (or population growth)?
No because for boys age is less of an issue.
How does that decrease their numbers? If we start with the same number of boys and girls, and they marry at equal numbers, how do we end up with more girls?
there are a lot of complicated pieces at play that make it hard to actually predict how many of each would be left.
Agreed, but we don’t need precise numbers, and without any reasonable hypothesis that more girls leave than boys (I haven’t heard one), the larger number of girls is a problem.
I think we’ve found the problem.
And Joseph’s solution 🙄
DaasYochid, I hate to break the news to you, but if you define “Pro-Vax” as someone who believes
vaccines are beneficial but believes in skipping/delaying some vaccines –
YOU, DAAS YOCHID ARE ANTI-VAX!
But wait, I think most kids should be vaccinated for MMR, Polio, DTaP, flu, and others, on schedule. I also dont believe there’s a link between vaccines and SIDS or autism. Am I still anti-vax?
Congratulations for joining the Side of Truth!
Thank you! Since I’m on the side of truth, will you agree to my previous opinions?
I don’t Know if Dr. Zimmerman is pro-vax or anti-vax.
I think you should do some research.
If you look honestly, I believe you’ll find that he believes the benefits outweigh the risks. Even the vaccines which he thinks could cause autism, he thinks are more likely to prevent a disease which could cause autism.
ProVaxxers, In the 1960s when there were only FOUR vaccines (not 72 like today)
were there massive epidemics, were people dying in droves from measles, mumps, chicken pox, polio,
diptheria, etc in the 1960s?
As time moves on their do become less guys available but this is BECAUSE of our system.
Wouldn’t you agree that there are fewer girls around as well? By the same number? The exact same number of guys and girls get married.
“The Shidduch crisis is a commonly observed and discussed phenomenon in the Orthodox Jewish community whereby eligible single persons, especially women, have difficulty finding a suitable spouse.”
So I would say their definition is a combination.
The OP certainly was referring to the disparity.
I dont fully understand the question.
I’ll ask it a bit differently. If we cut dating out of the process, but kept the typical ages intact, would there be a disparity?
DaasYochid – Is Dr. Bob Sears Pro Vaccine or Anti-Vaccine?
First answer my question please.
Funny, you haven’t had an issue with the precise definition of pro-vax when calling all of us liars.
Anyhow, I don’t think someone needs to follow every detail of the CDC recommendations to be considered pro-vax.
I’ll define pro-vax for the purpose of this question as someone who recommends that children receive most of the vaccines (not necessarily all and not necessarily at the precise times recommended by the CDC) being offered as currently being manufactured and distributed.
Does Dr. Zimmerman fall in to this category?
I’m still waiting.
I disagree that that’s what most people mean.
Do you deny that there are a lot more older single girls than boys?
Do you deny that based on how our current shidduch system works (now how it theoretically could work, but how it does actually play out) there aren’t enough boys for the girls?
First answer my question
Doomsday, is Dr. Zimmerman pro-vax or anti-vax?January 21, 2019 12:39 pm at 12:39 pm in reply to: Freezer-Burnt: Most boys unprepared for dating or married life. #1665467
Here is a partial list of questions which come along with ” thawed out freezer syndrome”
That’s excellent. Can we please see the rest?
Which seminary did the grandmother attend?
Meno, please share with us all of the bad jokes you’ve heard about this
But when the numbers do match up or at least can.
Yes, they can, if we close the age gap…
BTW I dont deny the Shidduch crises I deny the Age Gap™ as being a main cause .
What do you mean by the shidduch crisis? The disparity between number of available boys vs. girls?
I don’t think we should talk about shidduchim any more. It causes people to have a Whirpool of emotions, is a a very Hotpoint, and someone Maytag you as insensitive if you say the wrong thing.
(now you’ve heard three more)January 21, 2019 11:20 am at 11:20 am in reply to: Freezer-Burnt: Most boys unprepared for dating or married life. #1665417
Naftush, the side effect of the freezer is that hundreds of boys start shidduchim at the same time, but it’s certainly not the intention, and I don’t know that it has any effect on the overall picture.
Yes, the OP picked Tu B’shvat, when these boys start dating, to discuss whether they are properly prepared, but there’s no real connection.
Maybe there are ways in which the shidduch process is “engineered” that we can discuss, but the freezer isn’t a great example.
The rabbonim who advocate closing the gap seem to think not.
I’m sorry you don’t appreciate my humor.
No, and no, because I hope we’re not a society of obnoxious peoples.January 21, 2019 10:24 am at 10:24 am in reply to: Freezer-Burnt: Most boys unprepared for dating or married life. #1665369
The freezer doesn’t introduce young adults to each other.
“The freezer” as it’s called, is a rule with BMG has that a bochur first joining the yeshiva signs a paper that he will not meet with a prospective shidduch (in other words, date) for a few months. The reason this was instituted was not to change anything about shidduchim, it was so that bochurim will be settled into yeshiva when they start shidduchim, which helps them keep shidduchim from being a bigger distraction from learning than it would be if they started immediately.
Unless you mean that NOW there arent enough left., and I concede that that may be true.
But even closing the “age gap” wont help the current “older” singles
it is about trying to prevent future 34 year olds from being left behind
Right. And if we continue with the same exact shidduch process, where more girls enter the pool of available singles than boys every year, it will repeat itself in 15 years.
True if ALL 23 year olds only married 19 year olds there would be a problem.
Maybe this is the point we differ on. You say that if a small amount(e.g. 5%) would marry at the same age, it would solve the disparity issue. I say it will help, but not solve it. (Also there are those who marry at a bigger age discrepancy than 3-4 years which makes it worse).
Are ALL her classmates married to 38 year olds leaving her no one?
I don’t know, maybe all of her classmates are married, but there are are a bunch of girls from her grade (perhaps from different schools) who aren’t.
That just doesnt describe reality
If the numbers don’t match up, you can’t just pretend they do. Someone recently coined a term for that. It’s called “Shidduch Crisis Denial Syndrome™”.
True but what happened with the 40 year old boys (when they were 26 and she was 20), the 39 year olds? The 38 year olds? 37? 36? What about the 35 year olds? 34?
Those 10 extra are STILL left without a chair, at this point we would have t conclude that it cant just be the age gap keeping them without seats, they must not hear as well, or run as fast or something Just the disparity cannot explain how these 10 are still let standing round after round
It actually could in shidduchim, although in chairs you’d be right to assume there was a specific difficulty getting a seat.
In musical chairs, it doesn’t matter who sits in which chair.
If that were the case in shidduchim, the analogy would work. However, in shidduchim, the new entries, say the 23 year old boys, are unlikely to marry, say, a 34 year old girl. So even if in theory every girl had exactly the same qualities, the very fact that they have been playing musical chairs for a while (in other words, their age), is a prejudice against them. This wouldn’t be the case in actual musical chairs.
And I’m being serious, because I have a feeling we’re talking about two different things.
we just found an explanation that makes much more sense
An explanation for what?
This leads to one of two possibilities (of course a combination is possible)
1) the original 10 have all found shiduchim,, and the extra 11.6 are all relative new comers, so ok hopefully they will find their chairs in the next few rounds. No problem, thye arent waiting “forever” some wait longer than others.
2) Those 10 extra are STILL left without a chair, at this point we would have t conclude that it cant just be the age gap keeping them without seats, they must not hear as well, or run as fast or something Just the disparity cannot explain how these 10 are still let standing round after round
1) is only possible if the old timers marry the newcomers. In other words, closing the age gap. So we agree, but the problem is that’s not happening.
2) I don’t follow. There aren’t enough chairs. No matter how fast everyone runs, someone will get to the chairs before others.
As long as the Ribono shel olom keep creating more players and chairs even if they are different numbers. The game will never end .
There is an end game. People don’t stay in shidduch age forever.
It doesn’t make any sense in a changing system.
It does. I’ll illustrate.
At any given moment in time, there are more girls than boys in shidduchim. It changes because some constantly leave and enter, but when the same amount of boys and girls leave, it doesn’t change the disparity, and when more girls than boys enter, it only increases the disparity.
No, it makes sense even in a changing system, although we certainly don’t know who will be stuck without a chair.