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Because orthodox and frum are two different things. I see.
Many Torah observant Jews do not prefer the term “orthodox”. As Rav Gifter ZT”L is quoted as saying, “I am not an orthodox Jew, I am a Torah Jew”. Most “modern orthodox” do not have a problem with it, so the terms are not interchangeable.
I’m not ready to concede is the case
Mechila is a basic principle in Choshen Mishpat matters. Why would you not concede this?
posters here have made the case that shadchanus money is important and that not giving it can adversely affect the marriage.
I haven’t seen the case made for this, even when the shadchan is mochel. Maybe I missed it.
Wolf,
I don’t think I am in disagreement with Chein. He is correct that what must be paid is dictated by halacha, not personal feeling. If the shadchan did not perform the service with intent to charge, then halacha dictates that there is no obligation.
When you do a photography job pro bono, are you doing anything wrong by not charging? No! It’s the same with shadchanus.
Besides, Chein was referring to what must be paid, and you’re talking about what must be charged.
It seems that the argument is over when one is not absolutely sure of the situation.
Who says you need 100% certainty, rather than “raglayim l’davar”?
I did not compare a shadchan to a defense lawyer or plumber, I contrasted. A shadchan is indeed a type of broker.
I really don’t understand how all of these people who seem so frum by the opinions that they express, have internet access, that according to them is assur gamur. This mystefies me.
Some people need internet for parnassah, in which case, with proper filtering, most rabbonim will be matir.
Since most “twisted”, “abnormal”, “unhappy” (IOW, very frum) people don’t have internet, their views are actually very underrepresented, even on a site called “Yeshiva World”.
If you don’t like this site, no one is stopping you from starting your own.
one for the people leaning more towards the super – frum/chassidish side, and one for the normal people not leaning that way.
Aha. You think super-frum/chassidish aren’t normal.
As do many of the comments of the chassidish/super frum who are trying to impose their twisted world view onto everyone else.
Aha. You think super-frum/chassidish are twisted.
Give it up. You are NOT doing a mitzvah, and you are not doing G-ds will. G-d wants us to lead happy, normal lives. Be normal
Aha. You think super-frum/chassidish are unhappy.
Oy vey.
In what way is his approach different than that of A.I.?
They both seem to follow the psak of Rav Elyashiv Shlit”a; if anything, Rav Aviner could be seen as being more on the side of restraint from reporting than R’ Elyashiv. R’ Elyashiv paskens to report with “raglayim l’davar”, which means a reasonable suspicion, and does not require 100% knowledge. R’ Aviner only talks about a case of certainty.
Another sin on my part.
I respectfully disagree. If your intention was to do it as merely a favor, there is no financial obligation.
kako,
You’re not taking into account all of the work that goes into shadchanus, often hours upon hours. Also, since a shadchan does not pay for a shidduch which does not end in marriage (or engagement, depending on the community), the compensation for a successful one may be higher than for other services with a different system (e.g. a defense lawyer who gets paid even if his client is convicted) or success rate (e.g. a plumber who is able to properly fix the problem 99% of the time).
My cousin and his sister
In other words, your cousin, and the chosson’s sister.
There is almost definitely shadchanus owed. The proper person to ask how much, is a rov.
Mazel tov!
We didn’t give any shadchanus gelt to anyone when I became engaged.
Hmm… I wonder why not? 😉
On the occasions that I arranged shiduchim, I did not want to accept any shadchanus (but did accept a small gift when the couples insisted).
If the shadchan intended to do it pro bono, there is no obligation.
From this week’s Business Halacha newsletter: http://www.businesshalacha.com/sites/default/files/web-file-manager/files/email-files/Business-Weekly-5771-Masei.pdf
By Rabbi Meir Orlian
Halacha Writer for the Business Halacha Institute
DY, what if the girl is in town?
Then she doesn’t need to make a special trip.
Just justifies why I don’t follow that derech.
How? It sounded reasonable and thought out. You’d have to have previous disagreement with this approach to find fault, but it’s consistent with NK’s worldview. I see no additional justification here to disagree.
The OOT girls come in most of the time, because otherwise nobody would agree to go out with them.
I will not have Crocs for 9 Av this year unless I’m stupid enough to risk athlete’s foot by wearing the pair I left at the mikve.
Why don’t you spray them with an anti-fungal?
R’ Dovid Feinstein said that he feels that Maaser is something that has to actually come out of my pocket. He therefore felt that I could not count the time as Maaser unless I charged them & then returned the money
Is that because it literally has to come out of pocket, and if someone was moichel his salary to a mosad (as in dz’s example) it would not be ma’aser? Or is it because if he wasn’t offered a salary, then it’s not considered as if he’s given money?
I would think the latter.
What seems most logical to me is that one could only deduct work as ma’aser if he actually could have received compensation.
A child’s assertion of abuse, especially if the same thing has been reported by a few children, is not merely an allegation.
Depending on the circumstances (do they know each other or have someone in common to coach them), multiple accusations might very well be raglayim l’davar.
I’m not sure what your question to me is – whether or not something is raglayim l’davar is obviously a halachic shaila and must be asked to a posek. Otherwise, no matter what the percentage of false accusations is, there would certainly be many more if every child was always believed with no other evidence.
You analogy to Leiby Kletzky a”h is beyond me.
Girls get lost and waste lots of time on “lists”.
No, being on a list does not keep a girl waiting. She can see who she wants, regardless of how many boys have her on a list, as long as she hasn’t yet agreed to see someone else. In fact, since the boy usually has to wait for an answer from the girl, not the other way around, the boys waste more time than the girls.
True statistic: with the rare exception of double-dipping, the exact same number of boys are busy, at a given time, as girls. Why then are boys busier than girls?
The reason the boys are busier is because there are fewer of them.
HayyimOvadya,
Most 18-21 tear old boys are discouraged from going out because they’re not ready, so I don’t know if that theory can be tested. I know of cases where the husband is a year or two older, and I hear it’s becoming more frequent.
Where there is reluctance, as I said, I think it’s more from the men’s side, both because they consider it more of an issue than the women do, and because they are in a better position to be more specific in whom they seek as a spouse.
I was not aware that defining a haiku constituted lashon hara. I shall refrain from doing so in the future.
In this case, it was okay; it was l’toeles. 😉
Literally, “the matter has legs” (to stand on), the idea is NOT that to report, one must know for sure, rather, there must be corroborating evidence, not merely allegations. The amount of evidence and credibility of the evidence is subjective, and must be determined by a competent posek. This should be done immediately, so that any reasonable suspicion will be acted upon before there are any more victims, c”v.
Peacemaker,
Could be, but I imagine less so than the boys. Putting aside natural bias, though, I can’t imagine too many 23 year old girls turning down a 23 year old boy just because of age, simply because the chances are she has not been getting too many offers of good 26 year old boys (by that age, there are relatively few left).
Why do the ‘BOYS’ have the upper hand????
Becasue when we get married, Girls get the upper hand.
?
pba,
I have the same question – I’m guessing it has something to do with where on the page the post is.
HayyimOvadya,
#1 – I think it’s more from the men’s side.
# – I think you’ve got it analyzed correctly.
With so many going hungry, I have a hard time with this form of protest…seems like a terrible waste of food…
That stuff’s not food.
Just curious, Mike, how could you open a thread blasting another group after all we’ve gone through these couple of weeks? Shouldn’t we be looking for ways to come together?
FTR, I hate NK, but I thought I’d point out that it’s easy to say let’s all come together – on my terms.
shlishi,
The term is more often used with the word “misheniseis” and is a lav, not a mitzvah. It’s not found among the 613, but there is reference to it:
???? ???? ????? ?????? ??????, ???”? ??????
???? ??? ???? – ?? ??/?
The difference is in the attitude towards dating, not the numbers
That explains why the boys are busy but the girls are desperate to have a boy agree to go out with them?
hello99, do you agree that annual population growth is based on TFR? If not, there’s nothing more to discuss. If you do agree, then you find me someone who says the TFR is low enough to balance the numbers. (Avichai doesn’t say that, especially since they report growth in the growth rate.)
These statistics are quoted all over the place; they’re available from the Israeli Central Bureau of Statistics.
I asked my Rav about sneezing. He said it’s not a problem.
Your rav must be a big meikil. Time to get a new rav.
I’m sorry if your so desensitized to kedusha that you can have treif cookbooks in your house. I can’t eat some where where there is such a lack of kedusha
Mosherose, there are treif recipes all over the internet, so you’d better get rid of your computer, fast, before you get even more desensitized than you already are.
Wolf,
Refuah sheleima to your mother.
MR,
Learn the halacha before posting your theories. Bikur cholim, when it’s ?? ???? ?”? ????? (certainly true in this case) will take priority over talmud Torah.
The mishna is referring to the value, not to priority.
hello99,
From Wikipedia: (TFR = total fertility rate)
TFR is very high among Haredi Jews. For Ashkenazi Haredim, the TFR rose to 8.51 in 1996 from 6.91 in 1980. The figure for 2008 is estimated to be even higher. TFR for Sephardi/Mizrachi Haredim rose from 4.57 in 1980 to 6.57 in 1996.
Even if you’re correct that the TFR is higher in E.Y. than in the U.S., there could still be enough growth in the U.S. to easily have a 4% annual growth.
apashutayid,
Your confusion should end after your first sentence. You’re correct that the boys have longer lists than the girls, and are busy more often than the girls, for the simple reason that there are fewer of them.
I didn’t see them, but it’s still common decency.
Traditionally, the boy is approached first because the feeling exists that girls, being more sensitive, will take rejection harder.
That having been said, the reason the girls seem to wait longer for a date is simple demographics, which have been discussed on this site ad nauseum. There are simply more girls in shidduchim than boys.
Working on it,
For your theory to be correct, you would have to demonstrate that people who live in a culture with pressure to marry young have a higher divorce rate than those who don’t. I don’t think that’s the case.
Minyan Gal,
Re: taking home food from a simcha.
We’ve had this discussion before. To summarize, many (myself included) feel that it’s become completely acceptable, within certain reasonable parameters. There is actually a thought that’s it’s a legitimate way to share in the simcha.
As I mentioned, I feel VERY wrong about taking food and drink from a shul where I’m not a member at a kiddush or similar function*.
I understand your feeling. In a case where there’s clearly enough food, most ba’lei simcha are more than happy to have anyone who happens to be in the shul partake in the simcha, or even just to enjoy the food.
Do you disagree with me? That’s fine — just please keep the discussion civil.
I thought I did; my apologies if it came across otherwise.
Just Google “netiquette”.
It doesn’t seem to say anything (although I just skimmed it) about responding. Points of interest are not correcting others’ spelling errors, not using ALL CAPS, not multiposting, and staying on topic (I think I’m guilty of some of these).
Even if it’s not on WP, it’s still common decency to say “thanks” when given solicited advice, and possibly when complimented (although there’s the mitigating “blush factor”).
If the reports that he tried to abduct another child are true, then obviously, something should have been done.
Otherwise, although I never met him, if he just seemed odd, but never tried to harm anyone (that anyone was aware of), I really don’t know what could have been done.
We all know people who seem very odd (at least I do), and we try to keep our children away from them, but what else can we do?
Keep in mind that the vast majority of “odd” people are probably completely harmless.
They’re phony. He might very well think they’re real, though.
They’re really not even worth responding to, although in a few moments of weakness, I did respond to a couple yesterday (I also thought he got a little too personal yesterday, and I didn’t want to just laugh it off at someone else’s expense).
I guess one of the true problems is that people ARE waiting to get something OUT of the marriage when they are really supposed to be PUTTING into the marriage!!!!
That’s probably the biggest issue.
All suggestions that the unfortunately high divorce rate is due to issues unique in the frum world (parental support for kollel, not meeting enough times, pressure to marry by a certain age, etc.) would have to demonstrate that the divorce rate is higher in the circles which practice these ideas than in the circles which don’t, for these theories to hold any water. I don’t believe, though, that the divorce rate for kollel couples, for example, is any higher than for non-kollel couples.
He himself admitted above that it’s stealing.
No, he didn’t.
Even had he thought he was stealing, I have a right to disagree with him.
I had an experience in trying to help someone be mekareiv someone else, and it had disastrous results for me.
I actually think you made a kiddush Hashem, and as for the chest cold, that’s His cheshbon, not yours.
Joseph,
You haven’t responded to the gemara in Kiddushin which gives possibilities of up to 24 years old.
Joseph,
Please dig up the explicit comments from AZ encouraging the girls to wait; the ones you dug up don’t say what you want it too. While you’re at it, I’m still waiting for your R’ Miller’s pro polygamy stance.
Lomed Mkol Adam,
As far as I’m concerned, you’re preaching to the choir, but if you want iron clad proof, you’ll have to show that the birth rate of chareidim in the U.S. is as high as (or near) in E.Y. (it would then logically follow that the growth rate is about the same).
I was so upset by Mosherose’s over-the-top comment that I lost my head.
I have to disagree with you on this one. Mosherose’s comments are usually way too ridiculous to even get upset about.