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January 30, 2018 12:28 pm at 12:28 pm in reply to: GMOs linked to 3rd generation sterility, yet OU says they are Kosher, why? #1459944josh2336Participant
Ubiquiton, that is brilliant, thank you for the clarification
And helping me make sense of this.Blubluh, very good point and well stated, the OU to their
Also pointed this out.Winniethepooh,
Thank you for the explanation, on mesorah, this makes
Sense. I appreciate your patience with me, you have helped me understand the OU ruling on this . While I have a background in Biochemistry, it is through my undergraduate degree in biopsychology. I wound up persuing an unrelated career in business.
My Grandfather was one the orginal fathers of modern biochemistry, and cancer research. He built McArdle Laboratory with Frank Loyd Wright in the Fifties, and headed it for the next 40 years. He believed that Recombinant DNA represents the single largest threat to all life on Earth, not just humanity.
You are wrong about the virus just magically disappearing once it has served it’s purpose, once the virus incorporated into the DNA it is forever a part of that DNA, it replicates with it, and will be present in every cell of whatever organism the zygote develops into.
We have already seen cross species pollination occurring in fields where GMOs are planted
And this technology has only been out for 20 years or so. They are called superweeds
and they are seeing the pesticide resistant genes that they have inserted into the crops, appearing in the very weeds they are trying to suppress. So my Grandfather s fears are proven to have veracity. I would caution all of you before making
Yourselves and your families part of the largest biochemical experiment in human history. Just because it is Kosher does not mean it’s safe. I thank all of you for helping me understand OU ruling, it now makes sense to me, and unfortunate though it may be, I now respect it. I leave you
With this final Quote from the OU–
“…The presence of an OU symbol on a product should not be misconstrued as an endorsement of the safe status of a product…”
Be Well, G-d bless all of you, and Baruch Hashem.January 29, 2018 8:24 pm at 8:24 pm in reply to: GMOs linked to 3rd generation sterility, yet OU says they are Kosher, why? #1459104josh2336ParticipantWinniethepooh, interesting, I have to admit I have not looked at all the sources,
I will tell you the fundamental problem with recombinant DNA as my grandfather saw it. It is a problem with the fundamental mechanism of recombinant DNA itself and there’s no way around it and this is the reason why my grandfather thought there should be a moratorium on Research that it was too dangerous for you in the lab let alone releasing it into the ecosystem.
Recombinant DNA utilizes viruses as the delivery mechanism. You attach the DNA with the gene that you want to insert into the host. The virus will penetrate the wall of the host cell and in this way the gene that you are inserting can recombine with the host genes and creating new genetic material.
The problem is this: there is a casing around the nucleus that prevents the wrong species DNA from entering. With recombinant DNA because of the viruses they can circumvent this wall they go right through it like it’s not even there because of the viruses that are attached to the DNA now.
So something that’s been genetically modified through recombinant DNA can potentially combined with any other species. Once they get out into the ecosystem they are impossible to control because they will mate or cross with anything and if The Offspring is viable it will be able to mate and cross with anything. So our whole fragile ecosystem could come down like dominoes. The other problem is of course they when you eat them that and you chew them up and swallow them and then they come into contact with you or stomach acids you mind up with loose this loose DNA in your body and it can actually attach it can actually go into the walls of your cells penetrate the walls of yourselves and come with buying with your cells and then those cells will start dividing combining with other cells and that’s why you see so many different kinds of weird never before seen cancers in people
Who consume GMOS. THERE IS NO WAY AROUND THIS WITH RECOMBINANT DNA.January 29, 2018 7:09 pm at 7:09 pm in reply to: GMOs linked to 3rd generation sterility, yet OU says they are Kosher, why? #1459055josh2336ParticipantMeno,. I am concerned about GMOs because of there long term effects on human DNA when they are ingested, as well as the inherent danger they represent to all life on Earth when introduced to our ecosphere, hence the first statement.
I learned many years ago at Yeshiva when it was all theoretical, that they were an abomination, and in the event they were ever legalized, could not be accepted as Kosher for this reason, hence the second statement. The two are separate issues I understand this.
Its no longer theoretical, so there has been much more discussion About it, and apparently the ruling is not what my Rav at Yeshiva had anticipated so many years ago.I am trying to understand why.
Thank youJanuary 29, 2018 7:08 pm at 7:08 pm in reply to: GMOs linked to 3rd generation sterility, yet OU says they are Kosher, why? #1459053josh2336ParticipantWinniethepooh,
Regarding the pomello,
That is an excellent point, now we are getting somewhere…
So if for example they spliced a pig and cow together and came out with some wierd
New pig like creature, that had cloven hoods and chewed it’s cud, this creature would be kosher right?January 29, 2018 2:01 pm at 2:01 pm in reply to: GMOs linked to 3rd generation sterility, yet OU says they are Kosher, why? #1458488josh2336ParticipantSomeone asked me for a list of sources, here are some
Thank you for your concern:“1. E. Abdo, et al. “Feeding Study with Bt Corn (MON810: Ajeeb YG) on Rats: Biochemical Analysis and Liver Histopathology,” Food and Nutrition Sciences, Vol. 5 No. 2, 2014, pp. 185-195.
2. Battistelli S., Baldelli B., Malatesta M. (2008), Influence of a GMO-containing diet on pancreatic acinar cells of adult mice: effects of a short-term diet reversion, “Microscopie”, 10, pp. 36-43
3. S. Battistelli, B.Citterio, B. Baldelli, C. Parlani, and M. Malatesta (2010) Histochemical and morpho-metrical study of mouse intestine epithelium after a long term diet containing genetically modified soybean Eur J Histochem. September 26;54(3): e36
4. Brasil FB, Soares LL, Faria TS, Boaventura GT, Sampaio FJ, Ramos CF.(2009) The impact of dietary organic and transgenic soy on the reproductive system of female adult rat. Anat Rec(Hoboken).292(4):587594.
5. B Cisterna, F Flach, L Vecchio, SML Barabino, S Battistelli, TE Martin, M Malatesta, M Biggiogera (2008) Can a genetically modified organism-containing diet influence embryonic development? A preliminary study on pre- implantation mouse embryos. Cisterna.Vol.52(4)
6. Joël Spiroux de Vendômois, François Roullier, Dominique Cellier, Gilles-Eric Séralini (2009) A Comparison of the Effects of Three GM Corn Varieties on Mammalian Health Int J Biol Sci; 5(7):706-726.
7. O. P. Dolaychuk, R. S. Fedoruk (2013) Biological Effects of Different Levels of Soybeans Conventional and Transgenic Varieties in the Second-Generation Female Rats Ration. The Animal Biology, 2013, vol. 15, no. 2
8. Thanaa A. El-Kholy, Mohammad Abu Hilal, Hatim Ali Al-Abbadi, Abdulhalim Salim Serafi, Ahmad K. Al-Ghamdi, Hanan M. Sobhy and John R. C. Richardson (2014) The Effect of Extra Virgin Olive Oil and Soybean on DNA, Cytogenicity and Some Antioxidant Enzymes in Rats. Nutrients, 6(6), 2376-2386
9. El-Shamei ZS et al. Histopathological changes in some organs of male rats fed on genetically modified corn (Ajeeb YG). J Am Sci. 2012;8(10):684–696.
10. Ermakova IV (2006) Genetically modified soy leads to weight loss and increased mortality of pups of the first generation. Preliminary studies. EkosInform. Federal Environmental Law Gazette. a | -1,, p. 4-10.
11. Ermakova IV (2007) New data on the impact of GMOs on physiological state and the higher nervous activities mammals. All-Russia Symposium TRANSGENIC PLANTS AND BIOSAFETY Moscow, October 22 – 25, pages 38-39
12. Irina Ermakova (2007) GM soybeans—revisiting a controversial format NATURE BIOTECHNOLOGY VOLUME 25 NUMBER 12 DECEMBER 1351-1354
13. Ermakova IV, IV Barskov (2008) Study of the physiological and morphological parameters in rats and their offspring using a diet containing soybean transgenic EPSPS CP4 Biological sciences. 6. p.19-20.
14. Ermakova IV (2009) Influence of soybean gene EPSPS CP4 on the physiological state and reproductive functions of rats in the first two generations Contemporary Problems in Science and Education Number 5, p.15-20.
15. Finamore A, Roselli M, Britti S, Monastra G, Ambra R, Turrini A, Mengheri E. (2008) Intestinal and peripheral immune response to MON810 maize ingestion in weaning and old mice. J Agric Food Chem. Dec 10;56(23):11533-9.
16. Gab-Alla AA et al. Morphological and biochemical changes in male rats fed on genetically modified corn (Ajeeb YG). J Am Sci. 2012;8(9):1117–1123.
17. Т. V. Gorbach, I. U. Kuzminа, G. I. Gubina-Vakulik, N. G. Kolousova (2012) HORMONAL REGULATION OF SEXUAL FUNCTION AND OVARIAN HISTOLOGICAL FEATURES IN THE EXPERIMENT WITH GMO-SOYA USE IN FOOD. TAVRICHESKY LIFE SCIENCES BULLETIN 2012, Volume 15, № 2, Part 2 (58) pages 235-238
18. G.I. Gubin-Vakulik, S.A. Denisenko, T.V. Horbach, N.G. Kolousova, T.M. Popova (2012) MORPHOFUNCTIONAL STATE OF ADRENAL GLAND IN FEMALE RATS WISTAR WITH GENETICALLY MODIFIED SOY INCLUSION IN THE DIET. TAVRICHESKY LIFE SCIENCES BULLETIN 2012, Volume 15, № 3, Part 1 (59) pages 85-88
19. GI-Gubin VAKULIK TV, GORBACH BB, NG KOLOUSOVA HS, GOPKALOV (2013) THE METABOLIC AND HISTOLOGICAL CHANGES OF KIDNEYS IN FEMALE RATS AND THE FIRST GENERATION AFTER CONSUMPTION OF GENETICALLY MODIFIED SOYBEANS. SCIENTIFIC STATEMENTS Series Medicine. Pharmacy. 2013. № 11 (154). Issue 22 pages 150-155
20. G.I. Gubina-Vakulik, S.A. Denisenko, T.V. Gorbach, N.G. Kolousova, A.V. Andreev (2014) Morphofunctional Adrenal State in Adults Descendants With the Diet by Genetically Modified Soy. ЕКСПЕРИМЕНТАЛЬНА І КЛІНІЧНА МЕДИЦИНА. 2014. № 2 (63)
21. SERDAR KARAKUŞLU (2014) THE INVESTIGATION OF THE POTENTIAL EFFECTS OF GENETICALLY MODIFIED (GMO) MAIZE (Zea mays L.) ON SWISS ALBINO MICE. JUNE 2014, 25 Pages
22. Kiliç A, Akay MT. (2008) A three generation study with genetically modified Bt corn in rats: Biochemical and histopathological investigation. Food Chem Toxicol. 2008 Mar;46(3):1164-70.
23. Hasan Kiliçgün, Cebrail Gürsul, Mukadder Sunar, Gülden Gökşen (2013) The Comparative Effects of Genetically Modified Maize and Conventional Maize on Rats J Clin Anal Med ;4(2): 136-9
24. MA Konovalova, VA Blinov (2006) Influence of genetically modified soybean in mice and their offspring. Commercial Biotechnology 2006
25. Konovalova, MA, VA Blinov (2007) Morphometric parameters and features of the spectrum Blood enzymes mice receiving GENETICALLY MODIFIED SOY. All-Russia Symposium TRANSGENIC PLANTS AND BIOSAFETY Moscow, October 22 – 25, page 48
26. Konovalova MA, Potemkin EG (2007) Influence of genetically modified soybean on transport of carbohydrates in tissue.
27. Kuzmin, J. Yu, A. Kuzmin, and N. Pasieshvili (2012) Histological and Hormonal Features of Ovaries in an Experiment at Application of GMO-Soya in Nutrition. Journal of Research. 2012. № 4
28. Magaña-Gómez JA, Cervantes GL, Yepiz-Plascencia G, de la Barca AM. (2008) Pancreatic response of rats fed genetically modified soybean J Appl Toxicol. Mar;28(2):217-26.
29. Malatesta M, Caporaloni C, Gavaudan S, Rocchi MB, Serafini S, Tiberi C, Gazzanelli G. (2002) Ultrastructural morphometrical and immunocytochemical analyses of hepatocyte nuclei from mice fed on genetically modified soybean. Cell Struct Funct. Aug;27(4):173-80.
30. Manuela Malatesta, Chiara Caporaloni, Luigia Rossi, Serafina Battistelli, Marco BL Rocchi, Francesco Tonucci, and Giancarlo Gazzanelli (2002) Ultrastructural analysis of pancreatic acinar cells from mice fed on genetically modified soybean J Anat. November; 201(5): 409–415
31. Malatesta M., Biggiogera M., Manuali E., Rocchi M.B., Baldelli B., Gazzanelli G.(2003) Fine structural analysis of pancreatic acinar cell nuclei from mice fed on GM soybean. Eur J Histochem. 47,3858.
32. Malatesta M, Tiberi C, Baldelli B, Battistelli S, Manuali E, Biggiogera M. (2005) Reversibility of hepatocyte nuclear modifications in mice fed on genetically modified soybean. Eur J Histochem. Jul-Sep;49(3):237-42.
33. Malatesta M, Boraldi F, Annovi G, Baldelli B, Battistelli S, Biggiogera M, Quaglino D. (2008) A long-term study on female mice fed on a genetically modified soybean: effects on liver ageing. Histochem Cell Biol. Nov;130(5):967-77.
34. Maligin AG, Ermakova IV (2008) Soy diet suppresses reproductive function rodents. Modern problems of science and education № 6. (Annex “Biological sciences”). – C. 26
35. Nazarova AF, Ermakova IV (2010) Effect of soy diet on reproductive function and testosterone levels in rats and hamsters. Academy Trinitarism, № 77-6567, publ.15788, 12.02.
36. SG Nimbueva, R. Shirokov, SA Polyakov, SD Evgaldaev (2012) Influence of long term use of genetically modified soybeans on some morphofunctional indicators in pancreas of rats in the experiment. Articles XVII International Ecological Student Conference “Ecology Russia and adjacent territories “: in 2 volumes. Volume 2 / Novosibirsk State. Univ. Novosibirsk, 2012. Pages 119-120.
37. Oliveri et al (2006) Temporary depression of transcription in mouse preimplantation embryos from mice fed on genetically modified soybean. 48th Symposium of the Society for Histochemistry. Lake Maggiore(Italy), Sept.7- 10.
38. Hanaa ORABY, Mahrousa KANDIL, Nermeen SHAFFIE, Inas GHALY (2014) Biological impact of feeding rats with a genetically modified-based diet. Turk J Biol (2014) 38:
39. Séralini GE, Cellier D, de Vendomois JS.(2007) New analysis of a rat feeding study with a genetically modified maize reveals signs of hepatorenal toxicity. Arch Environ Contam Toxicol. May;52(4):596-602.
40. Gilles-Eric Séralini, Emilie Clair, Robin Mesnage, Steeve Gress, Nicolas Defarge, Manuela Malatesta, Didier Hennequin and Joël Spiroux de Vendômois (2014) Republished study: long-term toxicity of a Roundup herbicide and a Roundup-tolerant genetically modified maize. Environmental Sciences Europe , 26:14
41. AV Surov, NY Feoktistov, MV Ushakov, AV Gureeva (2010) Changing the physiological parameters of mammals feeding genetically modified ingredients of vegetable origin. Institution of the Russian Academy of Sciences Institute of Ecology and Evolution behalf ANSevertsov RAS (IEE RAS)
42. Vecchio L, Cisterna B, Malatesta M, Martin TE, Biggiogera M. (2004) Ultrastructural analysis of testes from mice fed on genetically modified soybean. Eur J Histochem. Oct-Dec;48(4):448-54.
43. Irena M Zdziarski, John W Edwards, Judy Carman, Adrian Jones, Marni Spillanie, Ysabella Van Sebille, Julie I Haynes (2012) GM feed and its effect on the stomach mucosa of rat. 6th Australian Health and Medical Research Congress 2012
44. ZHOU Ze-wei et al. (2012) Comprehensive Evaluation on Functions & Safety of Imported GM Soybean Using BDI-GS System Soybean Science Oct. Vol. 31 No 5″
January 29, 2018 1:59 pm at 1:59 pm in reply to: GMOs linked to 3rd generation sterility, yet OU says they are Kosher, why? #1458522josh2336ParticipantUbiquiton, thank you for actually answering my question, this is what I am looking for
So you are telling me that if a goy takes a non kosher creature and mixes it with a kosher one then we are allowed to eat the offspring?But can this actually be correct?
I don’t believe this to be the caseJanuary 29, 2018 1:58 pm at 1:58 pm in reply to: GMOs linked to 3rd generation sterility, yet OU says they are Kosher, why? #1458492josh2336ParticipantAku, I am discussing exclusively Genetic Modification utilizing recombinant DNA, allow me to present you with the timeline because you seem to be a bit confused:
1935 – DNA Discovered
Russian scientist Andrei Nikolaevitch Belozersky isolates pure DNA.
1973 – Recombinant DNA CreatedThe idea for man-made DNA, or rDNA, comes from a grad student at Stanford University Medical School. Professor Herbert Boyer and a few of his biologist colleagues run with it.
1975 – Asilomar ConferenceA group of biologists get together with a few lawyers and doctors to create guidelines for the safe use of genetically engineered DNA. Source
1980 – First GMO Patent IssuedA 1980 court case between a genetics engineer at General Electric and the U.S. Patent Office is settled by a 5-to-4 Supreme Court ruling, allowing for the first patent on a living organism. The GMO in question is a bacterium with an appetite for crude oil, ready to gobble up spills. Source
1982 – FDA Approves First GMOHumulin, insulin produced by genetically engineered E. coli bacteria, appears on the market. Source
1994 – GMO Hits Grocery StoresThe U.S. Food and Drug Administration approves the Flavr Savr tomato for sale on grocery store shelves. The delayed-ripening tomato has a longer shelf life than conventional tomatoes.
January 29, 2018 1:58 pm at 1:58 pm in reply to: GMOs linked to 3rd generation sterility, yet OU says they are Kosher, why? #1458491josh2336ParticipantThe process is the abomination my friend, not my attempt state it as so. Mixing unlike organisms is an abomination. That’s what it says in the Torah. I’m not exactly sure what you are trying to say. I did not write the Torah, it was G-d who wrote it. G-d who said mixing unlike creatures was an abomination. I am merely agreeing with G-d.
January 29, 2018 12:47 pm at 12:47 pm in reply to: GMOs linked to 3rd generation sterility, yet OU says they are Kosher, why? #1458458josh2336ParticipantAkuperma, thank you for respectful answer but you are gravely mistaken. The first GMO for human consumption
Was introduced to the market in 1994, that is not even 1 generation.
No one else seems to think so?
Only 28 countries produce GMOs while nearly 3 dozen
Ban its production.Are you trying to say it is ok to eat a mule?
This does not make sense.January 29, 2018 12:17 pm at 12:17 pm in reply to: GMOs linked to 3rd generation sterility, yet OU says they are Kosher, why? #1458433josh2336ParticipantThank you for the question iacsrmma,
Their answer was not not acceptable to me.
This is what their response:“In Jewish Kosher law, a person is not permitted to eat food that is detrimental to one’s health. Nonetheless, the OU views the determination of whether or not a particular substance poses a health danger to be outside of the realm of its expertise. This issue is not in the purview of a kashruth organization, and should be decided by responsible government agencies and health professionals. In practice, the OU would generally agree to certify a product that the USDA considers to be safe. The presence of an OU symbol on a product should not be misconstrued as an endorsement of the safe status of a product, since, as stated, we view this matter to be outside our domain.
In our opinion, the genetic engineering does not affect the Kosher status. This is the case for two reasons: Firstly, the genetic material is generally microscopic and is not significant enough to change the Kosher status. Secondly, the genetic material is only introduced in the initial stage. Subsequently, the genetically altered item produces new offspring, which has not been the recipient of non-Kosher genetic material. The presence of a non-Kosher gene in a tomato does not render as non-Kosher all subsequent tomatoes that are “descendents” of the genetically altered tomato.”The problem here is that when you take genes from a jellyfish and splice them into a tomato using a modified form of the Ebola virus as the mechanism, this is an abomination in the eyes of the Lord. Even Elephant DNA is microscopic so the Idea that somehow this makes the process Kosher is ludicrous.
January 29, 2018 12:14 pm at 12:14 pm in reply to: GMOs linked to 3rd generation sterility, yet OU says they are Kosher, why? #1458422josh2336ParticipantThis is neither a troll post, nor is it someone who is uninformed as to what GMOs are.
Background in Biochemistry and my grandfather is one of the original researchers into GMOs and tried to get a moratorium on them because they thought they were too dangerous to even keep them in the lab. He Died long before they were ever legalized. I’m not going science with someone who
Thinks Gregor Mendal was working with GMOs. GMOs are banned in most countries across the world, because easily reproducible tests conclude that they result in total sterility
In the third generation. If you don’t believe me
Just Google. “third generation sterility gmo”
My question is not whether GMOs are dangerous, I already know how dangerous they are.
Bmy question is why they are being considered Kosher when
It says in the Torah that mixing unlike creatures is one of the primary abominations that brought on the flood of Noah?January 28, 2018 9:30 pm at 9:30 pm in reply to: Republicans Support Israel; Democrats Do Not #1458110josh2336ParticipantLOL,when the Democrats ran John Kerry against George Bush, I swore I would never vote Democrat or Republican ever again. I don’t vote for candidates that are part of a secret society that is directly linked to Hitler’s Nazi Party.
Trump is a wild card. I am really starting to think he is different. If he really moves the capital to Jerusalem, I promise I will vote Republican next time around.
He just made a move to pull over 20 billion dollars from the UN Euro-fascists…
We shall seeJanuary 28, 2018 9:30 pm at 9:30 pm in reply to: Republicans Support Israel; Democrats Do Not #1458107josh2336ParticipantNeo-conservatives are not conservative, they are right wing, just neo-liberals are not
Liberal, but left wing they are both imposters. Trump is the first president in my lifetime that has not been positing UN rhetoric, and proposing it as US policy against Israel, while giving lip service to Israel in hopes of getting the Jewish vote.
Do your research on the individual candidates, and don’t vote exclusively along party lines. A president that supports the UN, is a president that is vying for the destruction of Israel, no matter what party he is from.January 28, 2018 8:28 pm at 8:28 pm in reply to: What percentage of off the derech kids/teens/adults return to Yiddishkeit? #1458119josh2336ParticipantIt is a Mitzvah to love your children, and even if they have become secularized, you must not lock them out. There is always the hope of tshuva. Imagine what G-d will say on Judgement Day, if your children would have come back to observance but didn’t because you shut them out. A parent who’s child becomes secularized would be wise to blame himself as much as his child. Repent and pray, there is always hope.
josh2336ParticipantHalacha is very clear on this. Someone is an adult when they reach age 13.
To try and force a child to be an adult before this age is directly in conflict with Jewish Law. -
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