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Nomesorah, guess what? Some Rishonim hold that conversion to Islam is not “yehareig ve’lo’yavor” as it is not an avodah zorah. Those who hold it is “yehareig…” is because they view conversion to Islam as a kefirah in a part of nevuas Moshe Rabbeinu. Christianity is an avodah zorah for a Jew.
Before writing your posts here, maybe go learn the sugyos.Nomesorah, CHAS VE”SHOLOM!! You are as wrong as wrong can be! Why were Yidden going to be killed instead of accepting Chirstianity?!?!?
ARSo, “Atzmus besoch ha’guf” is a Christian-type heresy.
CS, about the determining who is a tzadik according to the Tanya by talking to him etc.: I am really sorry, but your answer really does not hold water — you can’t tell if a person killed his yetzer ha’ra by talking to him. A person can be on the level to control his yetzer ha’ra and say and do the right things, but it does not mean that he killed it. According to the Tanya’s definition of a tzadik, no one can really tell who he is.
How does one know that a person is a tzadik in the Tanya’s definition? In Shamaim they know, but people?
Menachem…, why do you think Chabad has so many misnagdim, way more than other Chassidic groups?
CS, just because someone accepts responsibility to help every Jew it makes him a Nasi Ha’Dor? This is ridiculous. And then there are many Nsiei Ha’Dor according to your definition. Rav Shach included.
Yankel Berel, but that is the problem — that one may learn the wrong pshat. Also, not many people learn really deep Kabbola.
Menachem…, a big reason why Chazal opposed learning Kabbola by everybody is because of a big hashash michshol! Understand? The Arizal’s heter helps only for the reason that it is kovod Shamaim to keep it hidden. It does not help for the hashash michshoilim!
CS, the Yidden believed that Moshe Rabbeinu was a real messenger of Ha”SHEm, a real novi.
Nomesorah, stop with your shtussim. The problem with the Christians was not that they stopped observing Halochah. The main problem was that they believe(d) that Yoshke is a part of G-d. That’s why it is considered an Avodah Zorah. That is why Yidden throughout the ages would rather die than accept their faith. These are basic, well-known facts of the Jewish law and Jewish history.
So, all the Chabaniks here, what is the problem with Christianity? Why did the GR”A put Chassidim into cheirem?
After reading your statements I came to realize that Chabad is a much bigger mess than I had thought.Ujm, Noam Elimelech was. As far as the other mekoros go, were you asleep all this time? I did write that there are statements, especially in sifrei Kabbola, which can be misunderstood that way. And that’s why most people should not be learning Kabbola.
Menachem…, you mentioned a whole number of Chassidishe Rebbes in your list. Well, the GR”A was afraid that the Chassidim would make their Rebbes into avoda zorah.
Menachem…, the problem is that a fair number of Lubavitchers understood it the wrong way. And it is a mess. The Gra, you know, was afraid of the Chassidim making their Rebbe into an avodah zorah. It is a tremenous michshol — not somethig to view with complacency!
Nomesorah, again, to say that “a human is G-d” is total minus. That is the mesorah(!!) of the whole of Klal Yisroel! Stop justifying minus!! One MAY NOT just read statements from Kabbolah seforim literally and claim that this is what the Kabbolah says.
Avirah, all of this “more temptation” stuff does not change the Halochah! Your Amerishkaiyt is so much in your bones that it is impossible to talk to you.
Seihel83 and NOmesora (indeed!), because it is a mesorah in Klal Yisroel since the time of Chazal that it is minus to hold like that. Yidden went to be burned on a stake just not to be mode to this minus. Nomesorah, it is this why that fellows like you should be kept away from sifrei Kabbolah at a distance of “metachavei keshes”! Same apllies to majority of people (Sechel83 included).
Nomesorah, enough of your trying to justify anything and everything! To say that some human is G-d clothed in human form is pure apikorsus, Christianity! All of this is based on misunderstanding statements in sifrei Kabbolah. Started with Yoshke and his talmidim. Enough is enough!
Ujm, your stories/claims about Chofetz Chaim do not sound right.
One last attempt. Buddy, you misunderstood the Chazon Ish. He was not talking only about people who were brought up frei. According to him, even if somebody is brought up frum and then goes and does an avirah or aveiros, you can’t treat him as a roshah since nobody knows how to rebuke him. So, nowdays there is no din roshah or mechalel Shabbos be’parhesia etc. That’s why I said it is a shevere da’as yochid. “I heard something from…” was only one thing! What about all the mekoros — from the Gemoros to Badei Ha’SHulchan — that I brought down?!? And from Rav R.Feinstein — I heard it myself.
Qwerty613, I just wrote that the statement you quoted is very wrong. I stand by what I wrote.
Avirah, I am stopping to argue with you on this topic. I’ve written plenty enough for, at least, to get you to think. You refuse to mekabel no matter what I write. Just as I have stopped arguing with you about what the Gedolim (besides the Satmar Rebbe) held about Zionism where you claimed that they agreed with the Satmar Rebbe. Denial is not a place in Egypt!Sechel83, the name of G-d must be spelled with a capital H!
Avirah, how predictable! Chazon Ish is a shvere da’as yochid that almost all other Acronim argue with. ChofetzChaim did not hold like that (learnt his seifer?). That famous (especially by the Amerikanishe oilam) Gemora with Rabi Meir. Look in the Tosfos there! And how about a befeirushe Gemora in Sota that Ya’akov Avinu after his petirah smiled in celebration that Eisov was killed etc. Regarding mumar, shiva?!? I heard from a Rov that Rav Eliyashev told someone to do just that — to celebrate! I heard Rav R.Feinstein say that me’ikar ha’din there is no chiyuv shiva, just because of eivah. And, besides, what kind of an answer is this:” Rabbonim nowdays…”? It is an eternal question. Are you Reform or Conservative that by you it changes with the times?
Avirah, that answer to Ramo is poshut.
Avirah, do you understand the difference berween “no portion in Olam Haba, burning forever” and straight ticket to Gan Eiden without any judgment for reshoim?!? These are two different things. It is a mitsva to hate reshoim (and not only apikorsim). Look in Pesochim113B. If a mumar dies it is a mitsva to make a simcha (Y.D.345; Badei Ha’Shulchan Hil. Aveilus and Kitzur Sh.A.). Yes,we’d rather they do teshuvah. However Dovid Ha’Melech said:”ve’ata Elokim torideim le’be’er shachas, anshei damim u’mirma lo yechetzu yemeyhem…”. Why did not he say “and you will bring them straight to Gan Eiden”?
Qwerty613, what you say now is very different from what you wrote originally. You made a general statement that a Rov has no right to tell anybody what to do. In fact, he has an obligation to do so, but sometimes it does not apply because, for example, of the type of people he is dealing with.
ARSo, do you that Rashi in Yeshaya says that part of the reward that the tzaddikim get is that they watch the reshoim getting punished in Gehenom?
ARSo, please do re-read my last post. Same apllies to Avira. And try to think about it.
Do you understand such a concept that if someone did something wrong that there is a ta’anah on that fellow?ARSo, you missed my point. Try to understand it on it’s own merits. Even if Rav Zonnenfeld really held like that, Rav Miller and many others disagreed. Ramo and many other Achronim hold that one should not say Kaddish for a mumar. Do you understand such a concept as justice, that in the words of the Zohar “it should not look like there is no din and there is no Dayan”?
Qwerty613, it is an absolute lie, a perversion of the Torah to say that a Rabbi has no right to tell his congregants what to do. Have you ever heard of mitsvas toychecha (rebuke)?
“Who would prefer to deny them this?”. Avira, seriously?!? Because one can think that it is not real justice (“nimtzeis Midas Ha’Din loykah”) that someone can be a big rasha for a long time and then happen to be killed because he’s Jewish, and that makes him get away with everything. I am sure this is what Rabbi Miller also thought. Or you would prefer stam that all reshoim go straight to Gan Eiden even without being killed because they are Jewish?
Qwerty, their death provides a degree of kaporah, not necessarily a direct ticket to Gan Eiden (according to Darkei Moshe, the Ramo).
Avirah, there was one Chassidishe Rebbe (not a contemporary one) who held that Zimri was right in what he did with Kozbi.RoshYeshivas…, what are you referring to?
And, also, it is sure a great answer to all the ta’anos: Chabad is a holy Chassidus. All the questions fall off!
Also, stop with this Amerikanish Chabad ta’ana of sinas chinom when someone questions some beliefs or actions of Chabad. Give straight answers.Sechel83, it is also the basic idea of Christianity. They just think it refers only to one Jew.
Also, Avira, it is one thing for a Rebbe to be melamed z’chus. It is a different thing to make it like his limud z’chus is now the hashkofas Ha’Torah, and not what Neviim and Chazal said.
Avira, did not the Nevi’im and Chazal know about this perspective of yours and did not do it?! The truth must be told — that’s why. Just because a later-day Admor comes and says pshatim which totally change the view of Chazal and Nevi’im, it is going to help?!?
Avira, agreed about the nevuah. About who is going to be redeemed — it says it many places in NaCh and the Gemora that it will be a time of jugdement, and one has to be enough of a tzadik to be redeemed. It is just the derech of classical Chassidism (and, by extension, of Chabad) to try to “annul” any judgement over Jews. Hence, “no Jew will be left behind”.
Nomesorah, I did not want to respond to your posts, but this is one is just…! There can be no bigger mumar than a min!!! Even if he observes the rest of Halochh very well.
Sechel83, for real? You expect me to give you on the spot pshatim in deep concepts from the Zohar? Most people should not be even looking at those statements. It can cause michsholim as we have seen.
Ysiegel, it is strange. Usually, if there is a disagreement between a Gemora and a Medrash, we follow the Gemora. What is his proof in short?
Sechel83, there is such a statement in the Zohar, but one has to understand it the right way, not the Christian way.
Ysiegel, when they say ” no Jew will be left behind…”, they mean literally so. They do not mean: anybody who survives the cataclysm will be saved.Menachem…, nobody went crazy? The Gra put the Chassidim into cheirem. Some of the things that you brought down are, basically, Christianity.
Seiche83, why is Christianity an avodah zorah?!? What do you care to explain? It is exactrly this concept that you mentioned that talmidei Yeshu and talmidei Shabtai Tzvi and some CHabadniks misunderstood!!
Yes, Menachem…, no chashash at all. And it happened to be that it did lead to the stumbling block of some Chabadniks making their leader into a part of G-d.
Sechel83, please tell me: what does Gemora in the second perek of Chagigah say about learning pnimius Ha’Torah? Who is supposed to be doing it? Every last dimwitted individual?
Menachem Shmei, to whom is it degrading — to Sechel83 or the ba’alebattim?
Neville, again — re-read my statement and try to understand it!! I meant finishing Shas through Daf yomi.
Sechel83, very many Litvishe ba’alei battim learnt all of Shas — by learning Daf ha’yomi. I hope you understand that it is not worth a lot. So, I wonder how well you learnt the part of Shas that you learnt. Especially, that you are not into lomdus.
Sechel83, the more of your statements I see, the more anti-Chabad I become.