A Frum woman was attacked on Sunday on a Beit Shemesh bus (Egged 497) by a group of five Chareidi youths for refusing to move to the back of the vehicle, Police told the Jerusalem Post, Haaretz & other Israeli media outlets. A male soldier seated next to the woman was reportedly also assaulted.
When cops arrived to arrest the individuals, dozens of other Chareidi men attacked the police officers and punctured the tires of a police car.
A search was underway for the assailants.
The Beit Shemesh is reportedly trying to get “Kosher buses” for the area – which require women to be seated separately in the back of the bus.
(Sources: Jpost / Haaretz)
This is getting out of hand!!!
All these chumras have led to a society where attacking a woman is permissible for the sake of a mehadrin ideal.
What about all the lanim in the torah that such an act involves?
What a chilul Hashem this is going to create again!
This is not the Torah way. You don’t hear stories of gedolim behaving this way. Chareidim? I say not. These are thugs.
They WERE NOT chareidi! Is one who robs chareidi? Is one who kills chareidi? Is one who illegally avoids paying income tax chareidi? So how can one who assaults another be chareidi?
We know very little about these individuals. All we know is they were dressed in the clothes commonly worn by shomrei Torah u/mitzvos. So what? Many criminal wear disguises. (Even if indeed the individuals are otherwise shomrei Torah, perhaps the alleged attack was a reaction or even in self-defense. We DO NOT know!)
Chareidi is not a group of people no more than chiloni, reform, or conservative is. No more than modern orthodox or ultra orthodox is. Chareidi describes a certain behavior pattern or hashkafah. A behavior or hashkafah that this group apparently does not belong or adhere to.
What was the point of this article being placed on your site? I believe it should be removed or at least re-written.
I have said this over and over again.
The only eay to stop this is by not giving money to the institutions that created this.
rabbosei: before getting all worked up and being mekabel loshon hora – or motzi shen ra – let’s try to find out who the “Jerusalem Post, Haaretz & other Israeli media outlets” consider “chariedi”!
Oh, so beating up a woman is allowed, yelling after women who use the eruv elsewhere is allowed but sitting next to a man is not??? Maybe she was pregnant?? Maybe there was no where else for her to sit?? I’m disgusted by these creeps.
Why is the woman “FRUM” and the youth “CHAREIDI”?
Why is her refusal to move any less of a chilul HaShem than their reaction?
A male sitting between two women or a woman between two men IS NOT a chumra. It is an open Gemorah and brought as halachah in the Kitzur Shulchan Aruch.
Anyone with limited knowledge of shas and poskim probably is ill-equipped to issue a psak on what is a chumra or a mehadrin ideal.
Yiddishkeit is not relegated to a single group of rules and regulations. Yiddishkeit is about constant growth and change. Torah, zehirus, zrizus, prishus, nikiyus, chasidus, taharah, etc. It is also about mutual respect of anyone on the road of Torah growth and improvement. But certainly for those who have attained a higher level of knowledge, and hopefully therefore, observance.
As Torah believing Jews, we all strive for a life of not only ahavas Torah, but ahavas Yiras Shomayim as well. Yiras ha’Romimus is arguably more closely related to Ahavas HaShem than to Yiras HaShem.
I usually do not post comments. But this time I can not hold back.
I would like to address several issues with “theyeshivaworld”. I live in Ramat Beit Shemesh, and the Rabbis there (in Ramat beit) have Paskened that it is a MUST to enforce their way of life upon others. They have bewten up FRUM women on the street for walking with a jean skirt. They pulled women out of cars passing by, for having the radio on. The folks in RBSA know that these individulas are thugs. To the Rabbis in RBSB, they are doing Hashem’s work. There is no way around it, and I do not see any thing that can be done. You must blame the Da’as Torah on this behavior, not on the Behamos who follow!
Next, I once had a discussion with Rabbi Yisroel Reisman as who is a FRUM person. he told me unequivocally, that in our circles, DRUM means, a) Taharos Hamishpacha, b) Shomer Shabbos and c) Kosher. Therefore a FRUM person can still be FRUM if they beat up a person, steal, talk Lashon Harah, etc… These thugs are CHAREDI and FRUM, they are just very misguided, and they are ruining life as we know it in the Beit Shemesh area, and they are causing a trmendous Chilul Hashem.
Lastly, these Kosher busses are ridiculous. In the end, what happenes is this, all the men sit, and all the women stand in the back. Women are not inferior to men, its just the opposite. The women did not want to give theirgold to the Chet Ha’egel, the men did. Women are closer to Hashem than men are, that is why men have to daven 3 times a day, and learn evety day. My view of a Kosher bus, is first come first serve. If a woman is sitting down, and a man doesn;t want to sit next to her, then MOVE YOURSELF TO THE BACK OF THE BUS!
SHAME ON ALL OF YOU!!!!!!!
The behavior of these boys is utterly indefensible. I cant believe that there exists a single levelheaded Rav in the world who would have sanctioned this treachery.
if i may say…
of curse your not allowed to ackt that way,, & it may chas veshulom make a big chilil hashem
but lets stop a minute & look “who are the ones that allways manege to find this storeis ???
there are allways”those chevra” that allways FIND these storeis…
What makes these attackers chareidi ?????
Wish someone other than jpost and Ha’aretz had printed the story. They don’t have a great track record when it comes to reporting stories about Chareidim. Incidentally, last week I was on a bus with separate seating and two men had to stand for the length of the entire trip because 2 women were sitting in the men’s section and thus there were not enough seats for the men. (There were empty seats by the women. Really rude. But the men said not a word. I travel regularly on a mehadrin bus and the only place I find the supposed”kanaus” described, is in the Jpost – I’ve never seen it on a bus.
Terrible Chilul Hashem. Too bad they can’t have a kappora.
Shuali,
You’re an am-haartz. R. Moshe Feinstein said that it is muttar to sit next to a woman if there is no other seat. Besides, it’s an egged bus and doesn’t belong to the chareidim. You can’t force your will on a bus that doesn’t belong to you.
illini07-
Incidentally, in Beitar it’s not referred to as the BACK of the bus, but rather the INSIDE of the bus, as in “P’NIMA”. Remind YOU of anything?!
CMOM NOW, we all know what makes these attackers CHAREIDI, just like we know what a FRUM woman or a MALE soldier is. They are generalized statements that describe an entity of people.
A woman, male soldier or chareidi can sit wherever they like on a bus, it is personal perference, hire your own sherut if you want a particular seating arrangement. This is 100% CHILUL HASHEM which is almost impossible to gain mechila from, those living in BS & RBS are being very challenged by these groups of ‘kanooim’. Very soon the police will stop answering calls re:arson, robberies, car accidents, etc. due to fear of danger & injuries from these very sick individuals.
I agree with all the above our religion is no different then other religious if we approve of this act of violence
Like I have said in other posts until there is a hafgana with Gedolim against animal behavior this will continue.
Nothing was done about the madness this summer.
The opposite!! The rioters were made out to be the victims
Here also once they are caught there will be hafganahs protesting their treatment and demanding their release.
I still don’t understand what “enforcing” halacha lets them touch women. They pull them out of cars? beat them on the bus?
Last time I checked, negiah was still a halacha.
YISSI:
You write: “You must blame the Da’as Torah on this behavior, not on the Behamos who follow!”
Remind YOU of anything? (“We were just following orders.” So the Neuremburg trials were a mistake?
Then you write: “Next, I once had a discussion with Rabbi Yisroel Reisman as who is a FRUM person. he told me unequivocally, that in our circles, DRUM means, a) Taharos Hamishpacha, b) Shomer Shabbos and c) Kosher. Therefore a FRUM person can still be FRUM if they beat up a person, steal, talk Lashon Harah, etc… ”
It is clear that Rabbi Reisman was saying “l’chumra” that if one keeps only these mitzvos, one still MAY NOT, for example, speak loshon hara about them or one must be judge them l’kaf zechus because they have a chezkas kashrus. But to call them “frum or “fearful of the word of HaShem” (chareidi) is clearly absurd.
ILLINI:
You write: “First, it is not their place to enforce halacha.”
Not whose place? If I cannot keep halachah because of someone else’s behavior, I cannot say/do anything? If someone else is not keeping an open halachah, I cannot/should not say or do anything? I am not saying what they did, especially if it is as reported here, is correct. I am only saying that (a) we don’t know WHAT really happened and (b) if as reported, they cannot and should not be called frum. We may still have to consider them frum as far as loshon hara is concerned, but not as far as using it as proof that chareidim are animals and therefore my level of observance or lack of same is better, since I would never do such things.
SHERYL:
You write: “What makes these attackers chareidi ?????”
EXACTLY . . . That is what I have been saying. That does not mean what they were trying to represent is not correct. It also does not mean that the lady was correct. It does not mean we have a right to speak about them. It does not mean there is not what we could learn from them. It does not mean they were correct.
An absolute disgrace i would of like to be the armed soldier stiing next to the lady whaen those punks attacked. it would of been over right away with five perps under held at gunpoint for the police to arrive.
The Torah calls someone a Rasha when he raises a hand to somebody else. Parsha Shemos 2nd perek, 13 posuk.
Pinchas was a kanoee for two reasons:
A. The individuals involved were being oiver a mayseh aveiruh AND
B. the kannouus was leshem shomayim.
This story out of Beis Shemesh there was no averiuh and no leshem shomayim.
These “Charedi youths” are not kannoim but rather shotim.
The Israeli media will have a field day with this story.
How many people are these “youths” going to be meracheck with this story that would have otherwise become Shomrei Tora but for this.
May H-shem give them the daas to do tshuvah.
Shuali,
You are calling Rabbi Resisman absurd? I think you owe him a public apology. Rabbi Reisman is Da’as Torah, and FRUM is FRUM. If you do not like it, too bad. Just because a person did not follow one of the Mitzvos, does not make that person any less FRUM than you. This is a stupid mentality of Yeshivish people, that they are holier than everyone else. I am sure that you do Averyos, and yet you consider yourself FRUM!
We as Klal Yisroel follow a chain of command. If our Da’as Torah say to do something, we act on blind faith. That is why our Da’as Torah have to be careful what they say. Unfortunately, they do not. This is a direct example of what happens. The Da’as Torah in RBSB say to all the followers to enforce their will, and they do with whatever means they feel appropriate. Whether it means pulling people out of cars, breaking into peoples homes, throwing them out of their homes, moving them to the back of the bus, or beating them up. They are only soilders! Does this remind me of Neurenberg? It’s a wonder! They are acting as the Nazis did! They consider themselves the true FRUM and everyone else who does not comply, should be reassimilated.
to everyone who doesn’t “hear” this story as being true, it doesn’t have to be! but you still know the truth is that things like this always happen. i really don’t understand why the gedolim don’t speak out on this?!? i probably just don’t know enough but for heavens sake if you want to use someone else’s bus obey their rules or get off! unfortunately we’re in a society that has to use external sources of transport.
stop being religious start being jewish! (think about that line)
leonard613,
You wrote: ” Pinchas was a kanoee for two reasons:
A. The individuals involved were being oiver a mayseh aveiruh AND
B. the kannouus was leshem shomayim.”
But one more thing: They were oiver not any Aveira, but an Aveira which was handed down to be “Kano’im Pog’im Bo”….
This is mamash a chillul Hashem I wish there were no posts like this, and I really hope this is all not true!
Ramat Beit Shimush is full of wannabe NK loonies, halfbaked freak BT’s who 90 days ago were in prison or doing drugs, and other Thoraziner Chassidim. It is sad that the many decent frum families living there also suffer from the fruitcakes.
I know a Shomer Shabbos Jew, who would never hurt a fly, who was attacked by Jewish youth….they were yelling at some woman for driving her car (hey, who knew? this is assur as well). Anyway, they approached her & I guess the whole scene was scary. they guy I know, got out of his car to help. on of the Jewish youth (I am careful not to id them further) went up to my friend with a concrete block and cracked him on the head.
Utter insanity. Total craziness.
Wake up yidden!!! this is awful stuff. How should my friend explain this to his frum little kids? that these wonderful Jewish youth were protecting the Torah?
C’mon.
there comes a point where our fear of letting criticism go too far & be used against Torah, actually goes too far! I am the biggest defender of the frum velt but….we also need to be clear – very clear – on what is right & wrong.
Isn’t there some way to crack down on these Jewish youth who use violence & intimidation?
Imagine if they were doing some other aveiros in public….I am sure the community would find a quick way to put a stop to it.
so now is the time to do the same with these vildas.
Hey, if people cannot respect the Rules that the majority want & that incidentally were given by G-d at Sinai, & are sacred to the moral upkep of the community, then you just gotta take tje law into your own hands. So she gets smacked up a bit!! What’s the big deal? Maybe she and her preetsusdikke friends will cover up a bit and have some respect for G-d fearing people, who just happen to be the majority. Let’s cool it as bit. It takes some courage & a lot of guts to stand up for what is right & to dole out some “petch” when necessary!!
There is no halacha against a woman sitting between two men. It simply doesn’t exist.
There is a gemara that says a man should not *pass* between two women, dogs, pigs, or trees. This is one of those strange “ruach ra’ah” issues, probably related to zugos. It’s hardly a binding halacha, even if the kitzur does bring it. And it’s certainly nothing to get upset over if someone else does it, let alone an excuse for violence. It’s like not drinking water that’s been overnight in a metal container, or not eating peeled eggs that have been left overnight, or not making kiddush between 6 and 7, or not eating olives without salt. It’s a valid practise for those who follow it, but if someone else doesn’t care about it it’s none of your business.
And it’s got NOTHING to do with tznius. A man going between two women is just the same as his going between two trees, and nobody would say that THAT was a tznius issue!
I very much agree with your attitude of- Stop being Frum, Start being Jewish. But u gotta know what that means. Sometimes we get so wrapped up on the nitty gritty details that we forget what yidishkeit is all about. We forget that we are really here to do the ratzon Hashem and our forgetfulness leads us to act in a manner that is completely inconsistent with what the Torah wants from us. If we would just stop and think- Is this what Hashem wants from me at this moment- we probably would not do a lot of the stupid things we all do every day. And this applies to all of us, not just some boys that beat up a lady on the bus. It applies to each of us in out daily lives, my child does something that is a little bit inconsiderate of others, or someone does something that hurts me, do I lash out and yell at them, is that what Hashem wants me to do? Or do I go over to them and talk about it with them and discuss it with them? What does Hashem want you to do? That is how a frum jew thinks, constantly! What is ratzon Hashem at this moment?
So all those people in Geula that go around bleaching girl’s clothing, or burning down clothing stores, they are all kanaim, please dont tell me that they are doing the right thing, and that is ratzon Hashem. They do what they do to prove a point and to get a message across, thats all, they are not trying to bring shalom and achdus to klal yisroel, that’s for sure. They are not doing it because they sincerely care about the other individual and it deeply pains them to see their fellow jew doing something that is harmful to himself and to his neshoma. I would really like to hear a maskana from a gadol in Eretz Yisroel that endorses this kind of behavior.
Is that what we are here for? Is that what we are suppose to be doing? Instead of worrying about every else’s aveyros, maybe we should pay a little more attention to our own. We all have things we have to work on, no one is perfect, and I’m not saying we shouldn’t care about the klal. We all have a mitzvah of hocheach tochiach es amisecha, to give mussar to our friend when we see they are making a mistake, but the halachos are extremely complicated and you have to make sure it is done in the right way. Please dont try to tell me that beating up a women, burning down clothing stores, and bleaching peoples clothing falls under the category of trying to help out another yid. It doesn’t. People in our society today are very confused and misguided, i guess that is the nisayon of the generation right before moshiach. But every person is responsible for their own actions, just because someone said you should do it, is not an excuse to act like an animal, we each have a brain or our own, we all have bechira, and we are responsible to make our own choices and our decisions, and after 120 yrs we will all be asked to give a din v’cheshbon on every single action of ours, and saying that someone else told me to do it, is not going to be a good excuse. Try running that past Hakadosh Baruch Hu! Give it some thought, it’s complex.
O and I forgot one thing, about the dress, you can walk the walk and talk the talk all you want but if you are not the real thing, then it makes no difference what color shirt you put on in the morning. Yes, dress does put you in a category and it associates you with a certain group of people, but you and I all know plenty of people that just dress a certain way for the name, just so people will say, “He is a Yeshiva Bochur”, or “She is a Bais Yaakov girl”, but in reality, they are not, they are total phonies. So when it comes to dress you have to be extremely careful before you categorize people because dress is something that is extremely easy to fake. We all know plenty of people that dress like yeshiva bochrim and bais yaakov girls, and their actions do not reflect anything remotely similar to the image they are trying to convey. In today’s society dress can be very deceiving, you gotta be extremely careful.
Itzik_s, don’t beshmutz our sh’chuna! This kinda stuff don’t happen in the Ramah, only in Bet or the Kirya (actually, Egged isn’t allowed in the Kirya, so it boils down to Bet). – so please don’t call it “Ramat Beit Shimush”, ‘cuz that’s a large ‘hood.
Netziv, hakdama l’Sefer B’reshit:
“Zeh hasefer hanikra Sefer Bereshit, nikra b’pi neviim sefer hayshar…V’yesh l’havin ha’taam lemah she karah bilam et avotenu b’shem “yesharim” b’yichud, v’lo tzadikim o Chasidim v’kadomeh… v’hainyan d’nitbaer b’shirat ha’azinu al ha pasuk “hatzur tamim poalo…tzadik v’yashar hu”. D’shevach “yashar hu” ne’emar l’hatzdik din H’KBH b’churban bayit sheni, shehayah dor ikesh iftaltol. Upirashnu sh’hayu tzadikim v’chasidim v’amalei Torah. Ach lo hayu yesharim b’halichot olamim. Al ken mipnei sinat chinam she b’libam zeh et zeh, chashdu et mi she rau she noheg she lo k’daatam b’yirat Hashem she hu tzduki v’apikoros. Uba al yad zeh lidei shfichut damim b’derech haflagah, u’lekol haraot sh’baolam ad she charav habayit. V’al zeh hayah tziduk hadin. SHE HKBH YASHAR HU, V’AINO SOVEL TZADIKIM K’ELU. Ela b’ofen sh’holchim b’derech hayashar gam b’halichot olam v’lo b’akmimut af al gav sh’hu l’shem shamayim, d’zeh gorem churban habriah v’harisut yishuv ha’aretz…”
seems that the neo-nazi problem is spreading … every religion has its fundamentalists .. either you go around blowing yourself up .. or burning people at the stake … or beating up anyone you dont agree with !! these people are all the same , they use religion to defend their animalistic nature… as far as i am concerned the do not represent yiddishkiet in any way whatsoever .. they are just another test which is part of this long golus …
Another embarrassment for the frum community in E’Y. And don’t try to say that these people were not actually frum or that it’s a fake story. These things DO happen and dismissing it like that is just more embarrassing.
This event was reported in the anti Religious and anti Chareidi press. It either didn’t happen at all or is totally distorted out of shape.
All of the traife venom that is being poured out on Yidden without a scintilla of valid evidence is outrageous.
Moshiach’s times!!!!!!!!!!Chutza Yasgy Chutzpah will be large (end of Sota)
The rabbonim must unequivocally state that this crude and violent behavior is wrong. Derocheha darchei noam. If someone wants a segragated bus, let them take a cab or buy a car.
my friend and i were attacked by 2 ‘Chareidi’s’
on our way back from neveh, u have to be so careful!! (its not the way i wanted to end my seminary year). They arent real Chareidim they are just wearing a ‘disguise’ cause last time i checked real frum guys are shomer negiah.
Tzoorba,
My wife was there when it happened. It happened, as reported. No distortions. Face reality and stop living in La La Land!
Rabbi Shmule Kaminetsky said that anyone who imposes their chumras on others
-its not FRUMKEIT but VILDKEIT.
People who act like this are not people but animals.
If these attackers thik they are so roght then why do they run away after they attack the woman?
Come on why so many comments full of hate???? While attacking a woman is unheard of especially when done for the sake of zenius?.?.?.?.?.? I just started to read the comments and I got the impression that someone ever said differently???
IF NO RAV, POSEK, ROSH YESHIVAH OR REBBE WOULD PERMIT SUCH BEHAVIOR, WHO IS GUIDING THESE INDIVIDUALS TO DO SUCH THINGS? . . . EXACTLY . . . NOBODY IS. SO WHY, I ASK YOU, ALL THE HATEFUL COMMENTS ABOUT RABBONIM POSKIM, ROSHEI YESHIVAH, AND REBBES? . . . EXACTLY.
The act is wrong; committed by a bunch of amaratzim, lunatics, or both. But what kind of Torah believing and Torah living Jew, could dismiss so many of our leaders in one fell swoop?
As to why nobody is saying anything: The Aruch HaShulchan writes about a certain breech of modesty prevalent in his time, that in spite of the fact that the Rabbonim are crying out, nobody is listening.
find them and punish them (if the article is true)
This is a horrible story. How dare a man force a woman to get up for him! I don’t care what the reasons are. Such chutzpah! Shame shame shame!
These Biryonim -who the Chachamim always rejected even bizman hachurban- should sit in jail on lechem tzar umayim for many years- to lift a hand against a woman! Shomu Shamayim al zos….
NeveAliza, open your ears.
The ugly head of Anti-Semitism again raises its head in Eretz Yisroel. So what if it is fraticide, it is still Anti-semitisim. those in the “torah camp” can do this do each other, then how are acts like this perceived by those outside the “torah camp” or to the skin heads of the world?
Why should the women ride the Back of the Bus? Since a man can walk through the Ezras Noshim, but not vicea versa, the men should be riding the back. Or better. Leave the busses for the women, and make the men walk!
NeveAliza, then don’t comment on what you know not. You haven’t seen it doesn’t make it not so.
Some people i guess just cater to whichever brand of frumkeit they subscribe to and no one elses.
illini, My point isn’t in being critical but rather to measure ones words against Talmidei Chachomim. Apparently this is a principal you are incapable of grasping.
Every Rav I heard comment on this issue, were critical of the incident. Ask your local Orthodox Rabbi. If you find one that supports this type of behavior, please let me know — as I would be quite surprised.
joseph is an ignorant individual with no credibility. Ignore his statements and accusations , he will soon fade away.
(1) Over thirty years ago, the Aidah HaChereidis made it very clear that the actions of a certain group who look very much like Aidah members are absolutely unacceptable. They would have nothing to do with those who protest without government permits or that exhibit a behavior unfitting a true guardian of Jerusalem.
(2) More recently the same group — the Aidah — called upon some members of its community to stop behaving in ways totally unbecoming one who clearly looks like one whose every action should be above reproach.
(3) Rabbeim in every Yeshivah I have ever been associated with, have spoken openly about the midos which are acceptable for a ben Torah and which are not. Students who exhibit traits that are inherently destructive to themselves and others — and certainly to the society at large — are dealt with severely when necessary.
(4) How many such incidents as the one reported occur? How many Yeshivah students are currently learning in Israel or anywhere in the world? In how many cities are these actions happening?
(5) How do these incidents compare in number to similar and more cruel and violent ones occurring daily in the Israeli public school system from which hundreds, perhaps thousands, are fleeing and enrolling in Yeshivos precisely because of the midos they see being taught there? Has anyone asked where the Israeli leaders are. Where are the protests? And what about these thousands of students from non-religious and anti-religious backgrounds who take the next step and become more and more observant and committed because of the love and concern they saw?
EVERY group of people, EVERY population, has its misfits, their social failures. But to say the Torah and its leaders do not teach restraint, do not teach mutual love and respect, do not teach refinement of character, is at best absurd and at worst baseless hatred. The very fact Rabbi Feinstein, Rabbi Kaminetsky, Rabbi Reisman, and others have been quoted here as disagreeing with at least some of these behaviors, is proof that efforts ARE being made to guide, train, and educate the generation.
On the contrary, have any statements been made by any leaders condoning such behavior? Have any leaders called their students to take up arms against the pritzus in our midst?
Mechel, What chutzpa do you have to talk about another YW commenter like that!? Especially a chushiva person who has helped many of us here on YW understand the issues. Joseph has a better understanding of the various points at hand than practically any other commentator I and many others here have read.
You should beg mechila from him. Seeing his good nature I am sure he will accept your apologies.
shulai, well put.
torahis, Seperation of men and women is, if not a n absolute obligation in this case, certainly a praiseworthy ideal. For you to dismiss Jewish minhagim as disgusting and disrespectful is, well, disgusting and disrespectful.
Unfortunately, Shuali, it takes alot more than just speaking out against such behavior to reverse the damage. The problem is that our kids are not being educated by the real Gedolim that you mentioned.They are being educated by the leaders that are closest to them: e.g. Rabbeim, Rav of Shul, Roshei Yeshiva -not Gedolim, since most of us dont have the zechus to really learn from them on a day to day basis. These pseudo-leaders constantly hit their students over the head about how Tzenius is Yaharog V’al Yaavor. Even though it might take an idiot, someone will eventually take him literally and take the law into his own hands. If these so called Rabbis would stop feeding our kids this junk, and instead give them practical solutions (such as what do if one must sit next to a woman) and that bein adom lachaveiro may not be trampled in the process, we might see changes in our yeshivishe world.
I would like to know which Rabbonim these hooligans follow? These hooligans forget about the mitzvos between man and man. They have real seenas keenam. Many of them really hate and believe women are inferior. Kindness creates more shalom and understanding than bullying.
We also believe that in Torah there are differences of opinion that are too be respected.
How many of these hooligans have female relatives who wear tight fitting clothes?
Yiddel,
Are you Joseph by any chance???
Yidel, Thank you and #75 is a good point. Separating men and women even on a bus is a worthwhile hidur, even if it isn’t mandatory.
labc, such hooligans follow NO Rabbonim. But nevertheless, you cannot blame any man for their “female relatives” (as you put it) for dressing in tight clothes. Such blame belongs to those women.
Hey, theres no need to exagerate in order to disagree with me. I didn’t say drown, scalp, break bones or kill. So Sammygol, coment 56, take it easy. All I said is that if you gotta smack ‘em up a bit in order for them to get with it, then so be it. It’s their choice, nobody forced them to offend G-d fearing people trying to uphold proper morl values. If they want to live a decadent and corrupt and deviant lifestyle, they certainly may. I just ask them to not flaunt it in my sacred area.
First of all , the article is written by anti chareidi paper. Second, there are no gedolim who say this is okay. The violence is not excusable at all. However, why is it that I didn’t get attacked on the bus? I will tell you why. It is b/c I just complied. Could it be that this is just a dati way of besmirching the chareidim b/c they feel that the chareidim are taking over RBS since they were here first. I live here and I go to RBS B all the time. I don’t see ppl beating up women for not being tzanua. I see many chilonim get off the bus there etc and they don’t get beaten up. I think that this woman put up a fuss and somehow it turned into violence. Which is totally not right. However, I think that if she would have complied she would never had been attacked. This seems to be just part and parcel to the dati /chareidi fight.
Yidel IS Joseph. Just look at the pattern. When ever Joseph is under attack ( which is very often ), “Yidel” suddenly appears and always sticks up for him.
Baytzim says:
‘I didn’t say drown, scalp, break bones or kill…’
How admirable of you;)
WHERE IN THE ARTICLE DOES IT SAY THAT THIS WOMAN WAS NOT TZNIYUSDIKLY DRESSED PREY TELL????
It seems like she was just sitting there minding her own business . Furthermore why did these ‘CHAREDIM’ even take notice of her? The real frum
ehrlicher men just go their merry way without even looking in a woman’s direction…..
86,
Never mind that he sticks up for him, he says that he has a good nature, how would he know that??
“Could it be that this is just a dati way of besmirching the chareidim b/c they feel that the chareidim are taking over RBS since they were here first”. I
HUH! What are you talking about? What is a “dati” way of besmirching……? Ever wonder why Bayit Vegan has been in existance over 75+ years with all types of Jews living together without rioting, fighting or mudslinging.
Maybe the Mea Shearim types are disturbed that the new olim from Nefeshbnefesh choose RBS as place #1.
post #85, so is the rule of law now” “comply with my way of thinking and you will not get smacked around” ??? You are blaming the victim(s) as opposed to condemning the criminal(s).
Sammy’s 84 post reminds me of a story;
‘Yoser Migufo’, I think it was Reb Yaakov Kaminetzky
who once was offered a ride home by a neighbour and when the car was brought to him, he went into the back, and then got out and took his seat in the front. When asked why he did this , he replied, ‘ I just want to make sure that the seat is comfortable enough for my Rebbetzin’
frumimaof3 writes: ” . . . Could it be that this is just a dati way of besmirching the chareidim . . .”
What you write about the unfortunate event being reported in an anti-chareidi paper and the fact that NO Gedolim (OR EVEN their students) condone such behavior, is absolutely correct. Likewise, what you write about complying is also correct.
Tolerance and compromise does not mean anyone must give up their beliefs, customs, or laws nor their “democratic” feedoms. It DOES mean being inconvenienced to allow another free expression of their beliefs customs and laws AS LONG as my “life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness is not threatened. What would have been lost by her moving EVEN if the culprits did not know how to express their wishes in a civil manner? Perhaps, as you say, it was some sort of statement.
Again, the men, if the story os accurate, were 100% wrong in the way they handled the reaction to their request. They could/should have walked away. BUT the woman had no good reason to refuse. If she WAS pregnant, it would have been reported. If she was modestly dressed that too would have been noted. Unless making her only crime being that she was not chereidi is what the entire story was about.
ON THE OTHER HAND, we should ourselves stop using terms such as “dati” and “chereidi.” They are devisive and give the wrong impression of what we – as a people – are all about.
Mr. Mechel, You do a disservice to your immodestly claimed title. And you are completely off-base, as I know him. Your abhorrent comments scare no one.
I am trying to get a clearer picture of this terrible story – any clarification would be very much appreciated.
First, I am wondering about exactly how the women enter the bus. Do they get on in the front and then have to walk to the back, or do they enter the bus from the second door – straight into the “p’nimah”? (as a commenter astutely referred to it)
Based on what a previous commenter had written, it sounded like the women enter from the second door, but I would like to determine that definitively.
As for my point: Many commenters have expressed outrage at the women being treated as second-class citizens and being relegated to the “back of the bus” (ala Rosa Parks). I’ll admit that was my gut reaction as well (as well as my wife’s). However, we spoke about it, and it doesn’t seem like the cases are comparable.
Rosa Parks was deemed inferior and banished to the back of the bus to sit with “the rest of her kind.” The superior Whites sat in the front, while the inferior Blacks were shuffled to the back.
The way I understand the RBS setup, it seems to be markedly different. When a woman is politely asked to sit in the p’nimah, and the proper respect is conveyed to her – it is merely a “tzniyus-protection strategy.” If a woman sits in the front of the bus, men – in accordance with their “animalistic” nature will “take in the sights.” That is the ONLY reason that the women should sit in the back and not the men. Men were created with a tevah that requires tremendous vigilance when it comes to arayos/tzniyus, etc. Sure, if a man wants to gawk, he could do it from the front as well – but putting the women in front of the men (and the bus)makes it very difficult even for the TRUE Yorai Shamayim of the world. It is because of a DEFICIENCY in MEN that women should sit in the “VIP area.”
As for my initial question: if women enter from the front of the bus and then have to shuffle to the back, all the while walking past all the men, it almost defeats the purpose. Additionally, that shmeks of a demeaning nature (to me).
Finally, the commenter named “baytz*@” has made some revolting comments that have sickened most of us (I hope). Judging by his CRASS name and comments – he doesn’t strike me as someone who should be taken seriously (unless you are dating/married to him).
There are reasons for the women to be in the back. One is that if they are in the front the men will PASS between two women. It is at least preferable not to do that. Another reason is that B”H many women go onto these busses with strollers and the like and therefore use the back door and stay in the back either way. When I lived there my wife was proud to stay seperate from the men and went to the back quite happily. This is not done to demean women at all. Any woman who is a real tzenua understands this. The fact is that the torah wants genders seperated. This is the most practical way to do it. Noone whose opinion is worth listening to condoned this post of violence. I don’t understand why blame is being thrown at anyone but the thugs who did it.
Clarity & baki: zayer gut gezugt! Very good analysis.
I forgot to mention that it is assur for a man to travel behind a woman as she will constantly be in his sight.
The right to live in a community that upholds True Traditional Torah Values is NOT the same as a “mediocre esrog”, it’s not a hidur, it’s an unalienable right given by G-d through the Torah.If after much discussions, meetings, negotiations, etc, evil, wicked, deviant people continue to threaten our sacred neighborhood, our home, the place where we raise our children, then, certainly it’s necessary to dole out some smacks, & hopefully that will put them in line. If it doesn’t then maybe, maybe it might be necessary to go to more drastic measures. It’s simple, it’s true. It might not fit into a Secular philosophy, it is not the way of a coward. Yes, it takes some COURAGE to follow the Torah properly!
Look baytzim,
I’m not one to agree wit “is1″ (perhaps it’s a typo, and he means he is number one?) and of course I don’t agree with his shrillness on this thread as well.
But your viewpoint is so perverted and revolting, that it’s not hard to see why people of your ilk generate so much animosity and distaste. Please act like a Jew worthy of the name, and keeping your smacking to yourself (it sounds like you could use a few good petch).
When you’re done with the smacking, after you recover, try visiting a true godol, and ask for some advice on how to shape your viewpoint to be more in line with Torah and Middos.
Baki writes: “forgot to mention that it is assur for a man to travel behind a woman as she will constantly be in his sight.”
And Torahis1 writes back: “Baki – I forgot to tell you that you are no baki.”
“While it may be prefereable for some men who are on such a high level to refrain from traveling with women, it is certainly not assur to sit behind a woman. Case closed.”
FAR FROM CLOSED: The Gemorah speaks ill of one who walks behind women. Chazal call one who DOESN’T look at women after having chosen the path that passes them, a SINNER! His test was not to test himself. Perhaps the bus was chosen BECAUSE there were to be no tests and once there was, they tried to PASS it by AVOIDING it.
BTW: For those who have dismissed the choice of G-d fearing individuals to travel as separately as possible by saying “it is not their country” and it is not “yaiharaig v’al ya’avor” should check out what the Chaye Adam has to say on the subject: Klall 21 Seif 13.
GRANTED he is not talking about sitting next to, between, or behind women. AND GRANTED once again that the behavior AS REPORTED in the secular press is grossly unacceptable. HOWEVER, you do see from here that great diligence is required in these areas and they are not to be taken lightly.
Brachos 61a. Am haaretz haya afilu be rav (im tinokos shel bais rabon. Rashi) lo kara shenemar vatakam Rivka vinaroseha vatirkavna achare haish vlo lifne haish. Amar R. Yochanan achore ari vlo achore isha.
Eggs, What might those drastic measures be?
This is also in Shulchan Aruch E.H. 21.1. See P.T. there that looking at the floor doesn’t help in most cases. While it is harder to know that something isn’t there than it was for me to know that it is, I expected you to at least look in the siman in which this is discussed. You should know by now that I only write things when I can quote the source. I’m sorry that I didn’t do so right away. I usually do.
To Baytzim:
I gather then if you see someone engaged in loshon hara or bittul torah or stealing, or a woman with a sheitel without a hat on top, you will smack them around.
Baytzim- this message is for you! You want to “smack ‘em around”? You must be an arab or someone of the muslim faith who avidly studies the koran.
It is well known that the kkkoran permits beating and even killing women.
You are NOT a Jew! You don’t know anything about the Torah way of life…..so get lost!!!
We do not yet know the details, but if these criminals turn out to be “frum” ( rather krum), then this is certainly another sign of “ikvos d’meshicha”. Nebach, how low have we sunk? When these punks are caught, no matter who they are, they should be thrown into prison.In addition, throw away the key!
And to Shuali, who does not see the difference regarding a chilul Hashem between the woman’s refusal to move and a Jew striking another Jew- you are obviously not thinking straight,to say the very least!
As usual Joseph is proven wrong, once again
Mechel, grow up.
Not everyone has to agree- are you so insecure?
I also don’t agree with him in every instance- who cares?
You’re petty “fighting” with commentor Joseph is reaching absurd and embarrasing levels.
(And yes, of course, I’m also one of his alternate names)
Thanks Joseph for sticking up for yourself , once again.
Your welcome, Mechy.
PS- Are you one of his names also? Cuz that would be fun- I know some people who like to argue with themselves- ever get funny looks when you’re walking in the street muttering
?
Shabbat shalom, and regards from your other persona.
Its amazing that people feel that they have the right to judge others actions on their own. They made a decision what is either right or wrong. You go to a Rav, and the rav will tell you one way or another what the Torah guidance is on such a process. If Rabbonim are against it, and they feel that something has to be done, Im sure there will be a kol koreh – however, if they feel its not an issue it wont be. If they are against it, but dont feel we should make a whole big deal out of it, then the less we speak about the aveiros of others the better. My point is, who are we to judge.