Comments on: Op-Ed: The State, Hellenism & Hate for Torah Jewry

By: Milhouse

Milhouse — Tue, 26 Jun 2012 06:55:00 +0000

#14, “rabbiofberlin”, you are being dishonest. You know very well that “Tzur Yisrael” was chosen specifically because it does not mean G-d. It means the strength of Israel, by which the atheist framers meant כוחי ועוצם ידי; but they were kind enough to use a phrase that’s ambiguous enough that the religious could pretend it meant Hashem. But they adamantly refused to include Hashem’s name, or any clear reference to Him, unlike the American declaration which openly names Him and thanks Him.

By: Milhouse

Milhouse — Tue, 26 Jun 2012 06:47:58 +0000

Breslever #9, it’s nice that you’re such a champion of the Lubavitcher Rebbe’s psak din about the obligation to defend territory in which Jews live (whether in Eretz Yisroel or chutz lo’oretz); but are you really not aware that he was dead set against yeshivah bochurim going to the army? Why do you think Lubavitcher yeshivos make use of the same exemptions as all the other yeshivos. The Rebbe was clear that a bochur’s place is in the beis medrash and nowhere else. The Rebbe often referred to yeshivah bochurim as “chayolei beis Dovid”, who are serving and protecting Klal Yisroel with their learning, and who must be dedicated to their learning like a soldier is dedicated to the army. There are other important causes and mitzvos, but they are for ballebatim who have already left the beis hamedrash to support their families.

Note that Lubavitcher yeshivos in EY do not close down for election campaigns. Ballebatim can campaign for the candidates whom the rabbonim endorse, but bochrim have no business getting involved; their place is in front of a sefer.

By: Ralphie

Ralphie — Tue, 26 Jun 2012 05:23:11 +0000

rabbiofberlin: Do your homework. Here’s a more explicit explanation of the true anti-Jewish founders of the State of Israel:
“The second major issue was over the inclusion of God in the last section of the document, with the draft using the phrase “and placing our trust in the Almighty”. The two rabbis, Shapira and Yehuda Leib Maimon, argued for its inclusion, saying that it could not be omitted, with Shapira supporting the wording “God of Israel” or “the Almighty and Redeemer of Israel”.[12] It was strongly opposed by Zisling, a member of the secularist Mapam. In the end the phrase “Rock of Israel” was used, which could be interpreted as either referring to God, or the land of Eretz Israel, Ben-Gurion saying “Each of us, in his own way, believes in the ‘Rock of Israel’ as he conceives it. I should like to make one request: Don’t let me put this phrase to a vote.” Although its use was still opposed by Zisling, the phrase was accepted without a vote.”

By: Ralphie

Ralphie — Tue, 26 Jun 2012 05:21:02 +0000

rabbiofberlin: “The seventh and last section of the Declaration, the part containing the signatures, begins with the phrase: “Placing our trust in the Rock of Israel, we affix our signatures…” It comes as no surprise that these opening words had prompted a debate among the members of the People’s Council, reflecting the disagreements between its secular and religious members concerning the future image of the state. The debate ended in tacit acquiescence, presumably because of the reluctance to engage in such a discussion at that time. It should be mentioned, however, that the representatives of the haredi (ultra-Orthodox) community subsequently took exception to the entire Declaration, stating that it greatly offended their sensitivities.”
Your interpretation is not their intention. I stand by my previous statement

By: rabbiofberlin

rabbiofberlin — Mon, 25 Jun 2012 15:49:19 +0000

It is tedious and useless to continue this argument and I will not add to it. However, I have to correct factual mistakes. “ralphie” claims that the Declatration of Independence does not mention G-d’s name- incorrect. It clearly ends : ” With trust in the Almighty G-d” ( Mitoch bitachon beTsur Yisrael). look it up.
And, BTW, R’Itche Meir Levin (gerrer rebbe’s cousin and brother-in-law) signed the Declaration.

By: Naftush

Naftush — Mon, 25 Jun 2012 14:51:53 +0000

Daniel, for years I have also noticed mass disobedience of seemingly straightforward rules laid down by unquestioned “gedolim,” and the same among my own dati leumi population. I think both populations are in part captives of their own demographic success. A small population can march in lock step after its leaders; a larger one cannot – simply because it is larger. Among the religious, especially in Eretz Yisrael, we also have too many rabbanim to sustain army-camp discipline behind “gedol ha-dor” or whatever his touters call him. I think the media fail to see this or can’t be bothered to reveal it for reasons of expediency or habit. They are also drawn to extremists because, well, non-extremists aren’t newsworthy. And then there are sectoral media that make their living by portraying “their” population as forever under mortal threat, etc. Believe it or not, I don’t mean this as a media bash; it’s just the nature of the beast and media consumers have to be aware of it.
But for the same reason, there can’t be a grand reconciliation, new agenda, new reshut ha-rabim, etc. We are too atomized for that. But we can have de facto acceptance and will to coexist at the micro level, and I think this is happening and may be accelerating.

By: Daniel Goldman

Daniel Goldman — Mon, 25 Jun 2012 10:13:50 +0000

I have no idea who Baruch is or where he lives. To be clear I have never been a big fan of da’at tora, although I would like to think I was brought up with a strong respect for Rabbanim.

Let’s assume that my view is meaningless I would like to make a couple of points about Gedolim and their “rule” over the charedi community.

It is my contention that there is severe lip service to the Gedolim and Da’at Tora. Why do I say this?

I shall bring a couple of simple examples.

Da’at Tora (as enunciated through the latest “debate” over joining the army) states that you should not go to the army, it also states that you should not have a smart phone, go to university or have access to the internet.

In spite of this the number of Charedim in the army increases daily (not enough, but it grows), there are around 6,000 charedi students in Israeli higher education (universities etc), smartphones are now standard fare amongst charedim and many have internet (and not just “beacuse I need it for work”)

Perhaps my final and direct proof for this is the recent pashkavil posted in Beit Shemesh demanding that yirei Hashem not attend a certain supermarket (Osher Ad). There is first hand testimony that the very next week following this paskavil all parts of the community where using the shop, including known kanaim and even sons of the very Gedolim that signed the pashkivil.

Da’at Tora is as much an invention of modernity as Political Zionism (and they are indeed in some way connected) and Judaism will not survive in its present form until its use as a form of tyranny is stopped.

Finally, I ask Baruch and my other brothers and sisters within the Charedi community to wake up from the dream that non-Charedim are all out to destroy the religious way of life, and I ask same the same to my brothers and sisters who are not Charedim: stop assuming that Orthodoxy is old-fashioned and will pass from the world.

Together we need to create a new dialogue that accepts the facts as they are and then create a reshut harabim that fosters a greater love for one another and hence a greater love for Jewish values. (This could include a new solution for Charedim in the army guaranteeing supported learning for the minority, whilst freeing those not suited to full-time learning for meaningful service; A more open Rabbanut that actually serves (all) the people without corruption; Guarantees on Charedi independence in education in return for greater preparation for those students to be constructive members of society and the workforce etc)

HKBH (liked the acronym) destroyed the 2nd BH because of sinat chinom, not because people were not frum enough! Remember that the next time you are patronising to those who do not agree with your specific view of Judaism and Torah!

By: shmoolik 1

shmoolik 1 — Mon, 25 Jun 2012 09:43:39 +0000

Eretz Yisroel is protected by the learning of those who learn but what about the batlanim who fill the alleys and passages around the Yeshivos would it be not better that they do something for am yisroel – community service or even serving in the army those “chareidi” youths who wander in and out of mosdot would be best found in an organized framework that would bring them closer to the fold

By: Bar26

Bar26 — Mon, 25 Jun 2012 07:38:20 +0000

Excellent article. Very well written.

By: Breslever

Breslever — Mon, 25 Jun 2012 06:43:41 +0000

Again another totally biased Op-Ed opinion on YWN. I fail to see why people ignore that the obvious fact, so rightly ruled on by the Lubavitcher Rebbe, that defending the borders of EY (and defending Yidden by extent) is Pikuach Nefesh. The performance of the Torah takes priority over learning and pikuach nefesh in particular. We believe in miracles but we do NOT rely on them.