24 Responses

1. The Eidah Hacharedis has been battling ‘radical threats to yiddishkeit’ for several decades, an approach which arouses passion, and helps the average Yerushalmi feel involved and relevant. Those in the know will tell that the true accomplishments have always been achieved quietly through professional negotiations by respected community leaders such as that UTJ [Degel/Agudah/Shas] carry in their ranks, who are recognized in the secular world as representing the Daas Torah of the Hanhagas HaDor, in a dignified manner.
   Calling for civil disobedience, street unrest, and begging for a military jail sentence is not and has not been the position of our Gedolim since the days of the Chazon Ish and the Brisker Rav zt”l, nor is it condoned by the Roshei Yeshiva in Eretz Yisroel today.
   Keep our bochurim in the Beis Medrash where they belong!

2. If he says he’s not a radical he must not be

3. He has been challenged how is it that he is tends to lean less “moderate” than his father.

   His response

   “We heard what my father said when the doors were closed”

4. Kol hakavod

   But A genuine great leader needs to involve himself in much more than just the draft

   On every front,every hour

   Geirus

   marriage

   rabbanut

   shabbos

   And on.. and on

5. #1 continued

   His father’s pride was that he was
   Avuha D’Shmuel

6. Thank you! It is so nice to see the American Orthodox center giving due credit to the diehard Neturei Karta.Finally, they will enjoy the sympathy of the average frum American for their public cause.

7. #6
   So anyone you’re opposed to or who is “too” pious will be dubbed Neturei Karta,yes ?

8. #6

   What are you, some proto zionist
   who,(with endless pretenses) deify the military and state and are fascists in all but name?

   Or some proto Tel Avivist

   who display laissez faire and are equanimious as israel continues it’s descent towards r”l San

   franscico in all but name?

9. I’m a Bachur. Not an “Alteh Bachur”, rather a young Bachur learning in Yeshiva. So while I share with you the feeling of awe and “smallness” when referring tonR. Shmuel Shlita, I am unique in knowing that I am less mature than even “regular people”. It is with this in mind as I ask my question. Put yourself in the mind of a secular Israeli mother. They don’t understand what Torah is like R. Shmuel does, and like we do. For them, their life is dedicated to bringing the Jewish people back to their land. They aren’t lying, this is what they really believe. This mother sends her kid to sacrifice his very life for this noble (and yes, it is noble) cause. Some of these mothers even lose their children. Their children are risking their lives to defend the people who live within this wonderful countries borders. Some of these people, people for whom thier sons are dying to defend, are religious. That’s fine. Their religion, however means that they must not go to the army and defend this country like their sons do, rather they must “sit and waste their time” and even SCORN THOSE WHO ARE RISKING THEIR LIVES TO DEFEND THEM. Now when this heartbroken mother, and her husband, and all those other mothers who have lost children to protect the Yoshvei Eretz Yisroel, rally their politicians into renewing the draft law… Can you really say they’re doing just because they want to eradicate Torah learning?! I find that really hard to understand. Now without getting into details, R. Shteinman had a pretty good solution. Why isn’t R. Shmuel’s position radical? Why DON’T’ we deserve an explanation? We did t the Rav feel the need to explain himself? So much Lashon Hora, fighting, and simply bewilderment would be avoided if he did! So, why accuse those people who send their koalas to die of being “Anti Torah” when that’s not the releasing they are doing what they are doing, and why don’t the people that you are being Manhig deserve to understand the position that you take?
   בכבוד גדול,
   עם הארץ

10. Um, “koalas” was supposed to be kids btw. Thanks!

11. Oh gosh and realising was really. It reads ” when that’s not really what they are doing”

12. am haaretz it says even if they say al smol shehu yemin. no you dont have to understand and they are not obligated to expain any position you are mechooyav to follow like a blind sheep afeelu omrim al smol shehu yimein, or al yemin shehu smohl

13. If they are secular israeli ashkenazim, you need not respond at all. They know the truth better than you . (Once when I had a store debate with a post middle age ponytail leftist type and I demolished his accusations, his reply was a positive grunt.)

    If they are sephardim (or moreso american olim) it is indeed hard. In their simple naivete they are/were “killed and inherited” for a leadership whose end goals are opposed to what they themselves have given their life and limb for.
    At most demand of them: how is it when there was war, everyone used to be B’achdus and talk of yeshiva draft stopped?That ‘s precisely when you (plural) should’ve accused all the more?
    e.g. during the Yom Kippur war when some bochrim offered to join the army, they were told to go back and learn and daven for them.

    An analogy would be Boxer in Orwell’s Animal Farm

14. #9 Go on the offense

    Cause them to step back and reflect

    Inquire of them,what were their long term goals for their people
    How come it is more distant than ever?

    How will it possibly get there?

    (While these are some old british veteran excerpts ,the gist of so many who have sadly given their blood for a presumed good cause ,only to grow older and realize that it was but wasted is the same.

    ‘What is extraordinary … is their vehement insistence that those who made the ultimate sacrifice in the war would now be turning in their graves.

    …“My patriotism has gone out of the window,” said an ex-serviceman.

    …“If I had my time again, would we fight as before? Need you ask?”

    …“Our British culture is draining away at an ever increasing pace,” wrote an ex-Durham Light Infantryman, “and we are almost forbidden to make any comment.”

    ..Her husband, a veteran of Dunkirk and Burma, died a disappointed man, believing that his seven years in the Army were wasted.

    …“As I look around parts of Birmingham today you would never know you were in England,” she wrote. “He would have hated it.”)

15. Amaaretz: you are indeed a very young bochur. Rav shmuel and rav shteinmen are two gedolim with very different derachim. This is precisely hw ur torah works and instead of us small minds; as u so eloquently have written, sit and judge and chas vesholom speak badly of our gedolim we should accept the shita or derech that we disagree or feel uncomfortable with with the simple fact that the torah supports the eilu v’eilu. I’d be scared to knock someone as great as rav shmuel if I were you. You have to be very careful!

16. We don’t have Gedolei Hador anymore. The real Gedolei did not need five titles before their names and banners calling them Gaon tzaddik. The last gadol was the Lebavitch Rebbe who was the most modest simple brilliant gadol.

    Moderators Note: The rest of your comment was deleted as you are an apikores. Last we checked, there have been Levayos of multiple Gedolim that had more than a half a million people in attendance. Like 450,000 more than the Lubavitcher Rebbe had by his Levaya, who by the way was a giant.

17. To Amaaretz sounds more like a hidden recruiter trying to set a pro-zionist mindset here within the yeshiva community; and therefore as vedaa ma shetoshuv applies here.

    1) Rav shteinmen is not permitting any bochur or avriech to serve in the army, he just has a different approach bout it.

    2) Your way of phrasing the mindset of a secular person, where the ultimate goal of a person is to protect the land, and about the holyness of the memshala, and that this “cause” bypasses all of torah umitzvos is pure zionisim, and is the core reason that the past gedolim z”l have forbidden us chareidim to have any joint efforts with zionisim at all. As this way of thinking is minos and avodo zara.

    3) in my opinion these two gedolim are really not so far from each other, it is only that they have slightly different facts in from of them.

    While one of them looks a little further in to the context of what a young bochur is getting approached upon reporting to an induction center, the other godul is unaware of it, as the people surrounding him don’t have much of an interest that he should know.

    Just as example of what great damage this mindset has done, i’ll just mention to take account of how many many hundreds of thousands of Jewish people have been raised hate to torah umitzvos so-called holy cause of zionisim, and don’t even know anything about hashem yisborach and Shema Yisroel r”l.

    Thanks for bringing to light their approach.

18. Neturei Karta has long held a dissenting approach to many contemporary issues. The burning tires of modern-day zealots cast a glowing light on that legacy. Maybe some American wannabees will join ranks and occupy Wall Street to show solidarity.

19. #13
    “it is indeed hard” within a short discussion

20. bdtz:
    I was quite shocked when I read your response, as you seem to accuse me of being a Zionist, or at least sympathizing with their beliefs, even though I have taken every effort to let the readers know otherwise. In my answer to you, I will not be cynical towards you as you were to me, rather I will simply answer your points by using the numbers which you have them.

    1) You write that Rav Shteinman does not permit any Bochur to serve in the Army, rather he has a different approach to the matter than Rav Aurbach does. I have read and re-read my post, and nowhere can I find any allusion as to what Rav Shteinman’s approach is. In fact, I even wrote that I will not discus it. This will remain the case here as well, even though you are quite mistaken in your comments about his approach.

    2) Here lies the more serious part of your response. You accuse me if saying things which are of a Zionist mindset. Had you had a mind(set) of your own, you would have noticed that my whole point was to bring out THEIR ZIONIST MINDSET.

    3) While the content of your post may have been less than satisfactory, it was, however, well written. This comes to an end as you write point number three. I’m not quite sure what you were trying to say, but it would seem as though you are trying to say that Rav Shteinman is manipulated by those surrounding him. No comment necessary, other than Chazal’s famous words: קשוט עצמך, ואחר כך קשוט אחרים. I await your response.

21. bdtz:
    My apologies, I’ve addressed point 2 wrong. You were not accusing me of thinking like them, rather you were telling me that because they think [everything I wrote] the Gedolim have forbidden us to join any effort etc.

    I’m aware that their Shita is wrong. However that was not my point. We go to work with Goyim belong to a different religion than us, and Zionism can’t be any worse than a different religion. My point simply was that I don’t think they want us in they army simply because they would like to shut down Yeshivos, rather they would like us to join their sons for the reasons I’ve mentioned. I would never suggest shutting down Yeshivos because they have this reason, and not because they’re anti Torah, rather I would suggest we don’t go and scream at them “Torah will win!” Rather explain to them our position, as if we were talking to people who actually want to hear it. We are.

22. This is a silly discussion. As an american the practical question what to do doesn’t apply to me. To an israeli bachur the only applicable anwer is the one he is given by his rebbe. Debating which is right, wrong, better or worse is a complete waste of time.

    To leahleh. Chazal have already answered your point of gedolei hador. Yiftach bidoro kishmuel bidoro.

23. apushitayid: I agree. While I won’t pretend all of my conversations are practical… Or that some of them.. Make that any of them are, when it’s impractical, and bordering on disrespecting Gedolim (which I think & hope I didn’t), it’s time firbthisbAm Haaretz to go back to his Gemara 😉

24. *for this Am Haaretz to go back to is…

    Gosh what’s with my typing these days??