Comments on: Rav Shteinman Meets With France Chief Rabbi Sitruk To Discuss Chinuch Atzmai Busing Crisis

By: Ash

Ash — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 15:00:37 +0000

I think bringing in Churban Europe into this issue in the article was wrong. I also think what matters is that Chinuch Atmzoi gets the funding for the busses it needed.

So, to repeat the first commetn (#1), does anyone know what’s the best way to donate to this worthy cause?

By: stan the man

stan the man — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 04:30:14 +0000

Does anyone of the chashuva commenters know ANYTHING about the budget cuts in the Israeli knesset? (or why confuse reality with your personal agenda) Besides bussing cuts, prescriptions and medical therapies have been cut for disabled veterens, bituach leumi is at its lowest, religious ministries have been cut, mikvaot are in disarray, subsidizes for higher education have been cut, military budget has been reduced, bread & food subsidies were removed………but its only the CHAREDI BUSSES that are being hurt. H-E-L-L-O!!

By: Orthonomics

Orthonomics — Wed, 30 Jan 2008 22:24:37 +0000

This article is a low blow. Don’t bring in the holocaust to discuss a bussing issue please.

By: I.M.

I.M. — Wed, 30 Jan 2008 20:25:56 +0000

To Deepthinker and Charlie Brown. I think you are missing my point. I think that by focusing on the failures in relief and rescue, and using that as a hammer to pound away at the Reform and Zionists, and to use this as a selling tool to get donations for an Orthodox organization, is inappropriate.
I also think the debate about rescue and relief failures and the attempts to highlight them to portray the Orthodox as the good guys and the everybody else as the bad guys is politically motivated. I think that is wrong and it detracts from really analyzing the Holocaust to see what lessons the Jewish People could learn.
I suspect there were two sides to the story and it is not so black and white. I do not think it is appropriate to refer to Stephen Wise and the reform as “Swine” and I do not think the Mizrachi and all the others you have such vitriol for, intentionally worked to bring about the deaths of Jews. Unfortunately all of the rescue and relief efforts were too little too late no matter who did them and how valiantly they tried.
We are blessed with hindsight. At the time that war was going on there was real validity to the argument that winning the war as quickly as possible would be the best way to save Jews. Giving money to the Nazis to save some Jews might have allowed them grow their capacity to murder even more Jews. An allied victory was not so certain at the time. It is not difficult to understand the motivation for the laws against transferring money to the Nazis at the time,and it might even be unfair to critisize someone for not breaking the law and not supporting those kinds of efforts.

By: charlie brown

charlie brown — Wed, 30 Jan 2008 20:06:15 +0000

deepthinker,
thanks so much, and same to you!

By: deepthinker

deepthinker — Wed, 30 Jan 2008 19:30:16 +0000

TO CHARLIE BROWN:

I LIKE YOUR STYLE!

By: charlie brown

charlie brown — Wed, 30 Jan 2008 19:13:56 +0000

I.M.,
I am shocked by your comments (#9). You make it seem like saving a few thousand yidden would have been no big deal if anyway millions of others would have perished. That is soooo wrong.

deepthinker never said that the reform caused the holocaust nor did he say that they could have prevented it entirely. He Also didn’t say that they merely didn’t do enough to save their brethren. What he said was that they ACTIVELY PREVENTED others from doing whatever was humanly possible to save yidden. Had they not done this even you admit that thousands or even hundreds of thousands of yidden may have been saved.

You mention that Rav Weissmandel was angry at Rav Ahron Kotler for not doing more. I never heard that story, but even if it is true, the issue was that he felt that more could be done. But to compare that to the obstruction of the reform is ridiculous.

Imagine a mad gunman had taken a group of people hostage and a swat team was on the way to try to rescue them. Then another person had prevented the swat team from getting there and all the hostages were murdered. Would you say that the the person who stopped the swat team from arriving bears no blame at all because it is only mere speculation about whether they would have been able to save the hostages even if they had been able to get there on time?

By: deepthinker

deepthinker — Wed, 30 Jan 2008 18:56:53 +0000

Dear I.M:

With all due respect, I’m afraid you have your facts wrong.

Rabbi Michoel Ber Weissmandel,ZT”L, with very limited resources, was able to bribe top Nazi officials and save tens of thousands of Jews by postponing the deportations. He maintained the cooperation of Dieter Wisliceny, while asking the American Joint Distribution Committee for more money to continue the rescue effort, but their representative in Switzerlan refused to help him.

Over fierce opposition from Wise’s Reform group (and from the Mizrachi), Agudath Israel, under Reb Elimelech Tress, ZT”L, kept thousands of Jews alive by sending Care packages illegally into Nazi Europe. Unbelieveably the Mizrachi actually picketed the Aguda offices.

Despite opposition from Wise and his henchmen, the Vaad Hatzolo, under Rabbi Eliezer Silver and Rav Avraham Kalmanovitch, ZT”L, eventually convinced Treasury Secretary Morgenthau to create the War Refugee Board, which saved hundreds of thousands of Jews.

At every step of the way, Stephen Wise, Judge Proskauer, and the rest of those Reform swine, obstructed all attempts to save European Jewry.

They were truly the descendents of the Erev Rav who created the Golden Calf and brought tragedy on the Jewish people.

By: I.M.

I.M. — Wed, 30 Jan 2008 17:23:15 +0000

Deepthinker I think you are missing my point. I am not trying to absolve any of the various leaders of the time from their failures in effective rescue or advocacy on behalf of the 6 million Kedoshim. However since you studied the period extensively you would know that historians have concluded that the Jews were essentially doomed from the start of the war and perhaps even before that. No amount of rescue activity,money,bribery or bombing of rails would have had a major effect in altering the Nazi program to cleanse the earth of the Jew. Perhaps a few thousand could have been saved here or there and maybe even a few hundred thousand but that is speculation. Had the rails been bombed, The Nazis might have resorted back to mass shootings as they did with the Einzatzgruppen. One way or another with the borders closed and
Hitler in control of Europe, the Germans were going to find a way to murder the Jews.Had he G-d Forbid won in Europe he had plans to murder the Jews in America as well. It is understandable that people want to focus the “blame” on reform or Conservative or Orthodox or Roosevelt etc. This is because the scope of what happened is so incomprehensible and unbelievable,that finding a particular group or individual to blame makes it more digestible. We should anylyze that era and learn from our mistakes but not use it to further a narrow agenda or raise money in a tasteless comparison.

By: fertig

fertig — Wed, 30 Jan 2008 16:50:10 +0000

You can’t be “Koifer” against a human being (outside of Lubavitch)