Comments on: Out Of The Mailbag – To YW Editor (Disappointed Kosher Shopper)

By: Leizer

Leizer — Wed, 20 Feb 2008 15:20:36 +0000

There is a very important point that was mentioned by DM in his Feb 18 5:06 comment. His Rosh Yeshiva had a guest that didn’t eat a particular shechita, and the Rosh Yeshiva winked at the commentor as the guest, who assumed the RY agreed with him, unwittingly lifted a fork of meat from the shechita he doesn’t use to his mouth.
There must be more to the story. As written, the behavior of the Rosh Yeshiva is inconsistent with the Ramo in YD 119:7 and the nos’ei keilim there.

Barzilai

By: Proud KAJ-WH TIDE Guy

Proud KAJ-WH TIDE Guy — Wed, 20 Feb 2008 14:51:41 +0000

The OU knows more about the issues than most but since they are”modern” and English-speaking,the “frum” don’t trust them. Since KAJ is non- chassidic,English-speaking,and the best,;the so-called “frum” look down on them. They are both the best!AND FRUM,too!They send their own supervisors and publicize wrong-doing and take away hashgocho when undeserved.

By: ben avrohom

ben avrohom — Wed, 20 Feb 2008 14:40:19 +0000

from the Letterwriter -
as many understood and some commentors do not want to – the intent of my Letter is not kashrus.
Unfortunately, these forums become distorted as different bloggers have different axes to grind.

The intent was to publicise what a Rav HaMachshir and most if not all of his certified establishments believe they need not tell – that they have changed a many year long standard of certain brands of shechita only.
The consumer cannot presume what has been a given for years.

Some bloggers have commented that this may fall into a category of o-na-ah. As many kosher consumers will not purchase chicken or meat without knowing its origin – this may be so.
I know that the contrary bloggers would say not so with the argument that the vendor only represents whatever standard his Rav HaMachshir will allow. I sincerely hope they are right.

Two neighbors of mine have stated that their standards are dictated by certain of their married children whom will not – logically or not – eat from the other shechita that is now being sold in the neighborhood establishment – and are most simply disappointed by the lack of Notice.

The intent of my Letter in a public forum is to request the disclosure and transparency in a change of shechita – which we all know there is a sizeable minority out there that have their personal standard.

A Very Disappointed Kosher Shopper

By: chesedname

chesedname — Tue, 19 Feb 2008 15:08:16 +0000

#36 DM, yes $13/HR is a problem.
The problem with the small salary is the main Rav charges nice money, but keeps most of it to make a living, and a store can’t afford to pay lets say $20/hr twice!
One advantage of hiring an outside company as i suggested instead of a “Rav” is $18 of the $20 can go to the mashciach.

By: dave375

dave375 — Tue, 19 Feb 2008 15:06:31 +0000

Feif Un,
Well said, we have so many experts about which shechitah is supposedly better, but no one can give any first hand knowledge of actual problems. We always believe the noisemakers but no one bothers to ask the kashrus agency about these alleged problems.

By: Proud KAJ-WH TIDE Guy

Proud KAJ-WH TIDE Guy — Tue, 19 Feb 2008 14:09:09 +0000

If you rely on ONE hashgocho on a business,then that kashrus agency is solely and fully responsible. You can’t have ‘multiple’hashgochos in a store. KAJ is V E R Y reliable and takes no nonsense from anyone. They must have exclusive control or they will not approve .Also,why does shechita have to be “chassidic”? Non-chassidim are very good and honest shochtim. Yashrus and kashrus must go hand-in-hand. If a butcher who is “Very” ‘frum’ takes in another supplier,no matter how reliable,he will lose forever the right to have KAJ’s endorsement. No second chance. No fooling the public. Everyone knows that KAJ is no longer endorsing Rubashkin,but also announced that it does not reflect on their kashrus. The Monsey scandal should have been a wake-up call not to be forgotten. Standards must be raised,and that means honesty,which,unfortunately seems to be ignored in some “very ‘frum’” circles. Can you trust everyone and anyone today? NO!

By: not informed

not informed — Tue, 19 Feb 2008 07:03:10 +0000

I have several issues with the letterwriter’s points. First,if as he states he was not relying on the RavHamachsher but rather the proprietor regarding his establishment’s schitas then he has made a grave error. A proprietor does not make specific commitments to customers not to use certian schita brands (excluding special orders), but only to follow the standards set by his RavHamachsher. Furthermore, this RavHamachsher allows items based on meeting specific halachic standards, not political decisions. If, for the last decade Rubashkin didn’t meet these, and now because of Rav Weissmandel’s hard work in his specific brand “Supreme” (which incidently is the only Rubashkin allowed but not mentioned anywhere in the letter), and now meets the RavHamachsher’s halachic criterea, then clearly a thoroughly researched decision was made. This RavHamachsher made many trips to observe the Supreme production and was secure that it now met his halachic criteria. Just as the RavHamachsher never publicly announced that he forbids Rubashkin, he does not have to proclaim that he accepts a limited brand (Supreme)of Rubashkin. And lastly, why is it shocking that the RavHamachsher would try to inform the letterwiter’s Rov how Supreme differs from standard Rubashkin and can perhaps be accepted by him, perhaps he was unaware of the improvements made by Rav Weissmandal and would now agree that it’s acceptable. I’m sure that if one asked the letterwriter why he does not eat Rubashkin, he could not give a halachec response and would say “my Rov doesn’t”. The bottom line is that when shopping or eating in an establishment, one relies on the consistent halachic standards of the RavHamachsher and not on specific ingredient hechshairim utilized there, as those are subject to change.

By: SY GUY

SY GUY — Tue, 19 Feb 2008 05:17:31 +0000

There is no problem with the rav hamachshir. The problem is with you. If you trust the rav hamachshir, he can bring any shchita he wants at any time. If you have a hakpadah it is your job to ask each time.
For those who are not well versed in hashgocha, today kashrus is second to a good name. If a hashgocha has a good name, they will be more lax in places that other hashgochas who don’t have a great name are more strict. This is not true all the time, but most of the time.
For those who don’t eat rubashkin and only eat alle. Stop and think – alle has one hashgocha the Nirbater Rov, a very good hashgocha. Rubashkin has had over the years 4 hashgochas. KAJ, Crown Heights Bais Din, R’ Weissmandel, and SBD. these are from 4 different kehillos. I am more cofident to rely on 4 over 1. Each one has nothing to do with the other yet they all agree on the kashrus. Also to those spreading who just talk, that is motzie shem rah on 4 hashgochas. I eat from both since they both have relibale hashgochas, but I challange anyone who only eats from one to tell me the differances THEY SAW between the two shcitas. Not what they heard 4th hand.
I’m waiting.

By: DM

DM — Tue, 19 Feb 2008 03:08:29 +0000

chesedname,

you have a point, and ALL of your suggestions are good and valid. But, they mashgichim still need to get paid more.

In today’s kashrus world, a good percentage of the working mashgichim are people who suffered some hard times in their lives, and were sort of “desperate” for income.

Here, in my area, most of the mashgichim earn $13.00 per hour, get no benefits, no overtime, no unemployment, and most are off the books.
They can’t afford to pay their rent on time, let alone a mortgage. The local Rav HaMachshir hates to hire anyone who has children, because he knows that they will never be able to pay for their kids doctors, and certainly not afford the schar limud for their children.

I know one very nice young man who really wanted to work as a mashgiach. He working close to 90 hours per week to get his bills paid. But his family was abandoned accidentally by this.

Bottom line, would YOU trust a decision made by someone willing to work for $13/hr with no benefits, no medical, etc.?

In many areas, when a person whose life crashed and burned, comes broke and almost homeless to a rabbi seeking help, the rabbi picks up the phone and calls the local rov hamachshir and says, “I have a nice young man here who needs a job. Do you have any openings?” He then is given the jobs no one else would take, and starts at $10/hr, with the hope of eventually getting up to $13.

You can’t live today on $13/hr, especially if you have to support a wife and/or children.

By: DM

DM — Tue, 19 Feb 2008 02:54:39 +0000

Yael, maybe you are right. Maybe I should not have mentioned Alle and Vineland by name. I thought it was okay because the only objection to them had nothing to do with kashrus, only a political thing because a certain other group was angry at Satmar for some incident which happened many years ago. So, they “banned” Satmar shechita “for their group” based upon their anger. It had nothing to do with kashrus, and is considered by many of their own today to be a silly, old grudge that needs to be discarded. Unfortunately, the vast majority of that very large group, only knows that they are supposed to eat “Only XXXXXX” … they don’t know why, and think that it is a kashrus issue. In reality, it never was a kashrus issue, just political stuff.