13 Responses

1. I don’t know, but it seems to me that this charadi fellow should listen to the police even if he thinks the police are wrong and he points it out.

   BTW the exemption to the army are for those who sit and learn. If you do NOT sit and learn, you have no exemption. PELEG hoodlums do not sit and learn. They sit in the street and block traffic. Put them directly in the Army for full term….

2. Luckshun, so you think IDF service should be used as a punishment like the Cantonists in the Tzar’s army during the 19th century? Why would the army even want such guys in the first place? Will they become good soldiers and contribute anything to the army? These guys will endure verbal and even physical (yes, physical!) punishment, being locked up in the military brig, and anything else the army can come up with. In the end, the IDF cannot put up for long with the breakdown in discipline that would occur by trying to force unwilling conscripts into becoming soldiers. The IDF has done quite well for the past 70 years without the yeshiva students. Why would they suddenly need them now?

3. American: It’s not about needing yeshivaleit in the army. It’s about hatred for the Charedi and the attempt to banish that way of life. Plus, the chilonim believe it’s not fair that they have to go into the army and we don’t. We need the geulah now.

4. The video seems to show it was the white-shirted person (apparently the the same person the headline labels Chareidi) who confronted (with no apparent justification) the police officer in the performance of the latter’s duty. This white-shirted person brought this upon himself.

5. You are misrepresenting the issue.

   They are NOT trying to force bnei Yeshivos in the army.

   The protest is because of the arrest of those that didn’t register for the Bnei Yeshivos exception.

   Does anyone feel the army should allow whoever wants to ignore registering for the draft?

   If that’s the case the whole draft would fall apart.

   Please suggest what you would like the army to do???

6. motchah11: I don’t disagree with what you wrote. I was addressing LK’s comment about “putting ‘the hoodlums’ into the army.” The IDF should draft hoodlums? They throw out guys (generally not frum) who have serious criminal records (juvenile) because they know they are simply not compatible with the disciplinary requirements of the army.
   There are thousands of healthy able bodied young men (and women) who serve the state without being in the army. The Mossad employs an “army” of operatives all over the world who don’t wear the green uniform or slog in muddy foxholes. That’s not fair either. Some people get mud in their boots, and some sit in coffeehouses along the pier and keep an eye on undocumented “fishing boats” that are on their way to deliver “humanitarian aid” to Gaza. Their work is critical to protecting the Am Hayosheiv BeTzion. The importance of the lomdei Torah is no less, and in fact more important. I agree that we have a serious PR problem. And I agree with the desperate need for Moshiach’s arrival!

7. luckshun kugel – All right, but the IDF has no need for soldiers with zero motivation. What would happen is that they would be locked up for a short time and then given dishonorable discharges. While that carries real consequences in non-charedi Israel, the consequences for these people would be negligible. For your proposal to be effective, the Knesset and the government would have to pass laws and regulations that significantly limit the ability of someone who was dishonorably discharged from the IDF to receive government funding, payments, benefits and services. That would hit them where it hurts but to the best of my knowledge that is not the case today (and, as things currently stand, such laws and regulation would likely be struck down by the Supreme Court).

   american yerushalmi – But Israeli society has never done well with charedi refusal to serve. And while the IDF has managed, it is becoming increasingly difficult for it to do so as the security need get more complex and as the percentage of the draft that receive the religious exemption has been growing steadily. While the original exemption was for several hundred men and boys altogether a large and rapidly growing percentage of draft age boys are now exempted.

8. american yerushalmi – You are misinformed. Israelis who serve in the Mossad only do so AFTER completing their army service.

9. YL: you wrote to me is the opposite of what you wrote to LK, that “the IDF has no need for soldiers with zero motivation.” So, which is it, is there a need for unmotivated soldiers or not? And please don’t try to tell me, “well, start being motivated!” Because to that I say, “take it up with the gedolei Torah. Their minds are the minds you need to change.” Don’t fault the Chareidi tzibbur for following those whom they consider the manhigei hador.
   Aside from that, as I wrote elsewhere, everyone knows that at least 70% of all conscripts end up as “jobniks.” Many of them are only partially utilized, because there isn’t enough to do for all of them. Not everyone is suited to participate in a 2:30 am raid in Shchem to snatch a terrorist. And it’s true that very many of the supporting tasks that the jobniks fulfill are important. But, the IDF lately is outsourcing the entire food and catering to private companies because it’s more cost efficient. There will be many other “jobs” that will be outsourced in the future for the same reason, and it’s a smart way to go. And 25 or so years ago, as soon as Ehud Barak became Chief of Staff of the IDF, he cancelled “shlav bet” — because it wasn’t cost efficient. Bringing scores of yeshiva bochurim into the army wold entail huge expenses, that most likely would not be justified in terms of what the army would get in return.
   It’s not 1948 anymore. The security needs are different. and Iran and North Korea must somehow be thwarted, but more (unmotivated) soldiers on the army bases is not going to stop nuclear tipped missles, r”l. That problem has to somehow be dealt with by the Mossad and most Chareidi fellows are probably not Mossad material. Don’t forget about all the secular, lefty kids who are getting out of army service by hook or by crook. Everyone knows about the fake psychiatric evaluations many seculars pay to get their sons out of the army. And some take their kids on trips abroad when they’re 15 years old and leave them in “organized” communities or groups of similar youngsters who will be out of the country on their 17th birthday so they cannot be drafted.
   Perhaps everyone should just accept the IDF’s point of view that unmotivated conscripts will never make good soldiers. Just like they don’t bother with the lefty seculars , so too everyone should just leave the lomdei Torah alone, to do what they do best.

10. YL: I guess we can quibble about this ad infinitum. But, the Mossad tried to recruit a friend of mine (I could give you his personal info, but I respect his wishes to publicize this) before he was conscripted into the army. After 2 meetings at the Kiriya in Tel Aviv, he declined the offer.
    Bottom line, the Mossad probably recruits operatives according to their specific needs. The important point is that people can “serve” in many different ways, even if sometimes it doesn’t seem to be “fair.” During WWII, was the draft in the U.S. “fair,” or during the Korean or Vietman Wars? This is something that is almost never “fair.” Everyone has a job to do. And even in the army, not every position is facing the enemy directly in a combat position.

11. american_yerushalmi – there is no contradiction between what I wrote to you and what I wrote to LK. The IDF has no use for unmotivated soldiers. But I and many others believe that a significant portion of draft age charedi boys ARE motivated to serve: they just feel that they cannot afford to do so in the current social climate in charedi society. This is not an unfounded belief. Anecdotally, I have had conversations with such boys who have confided that they feel ashamed for not serving but fear what joining the IDF would mean for their and their family’s social standing/ shidduch prospects. And I am not talking about fringe or dropout boys. Even today, a small but growing number of charedim (albeit, often poor learners or dropouts or more established married men) are joining the IDF. And the hope is that these boys will pave the way for the mainstream. Because the IDF DOES need many more motivated and able bodied boys to join its ranks every year. Not, by and large, as you have pointed out, to become jobniks but to become combat and combat support soldiers with which the IDF is becoming seriously undermanned. Because while Israel has to deal with strategic nuclear threats, as you noted, it also has to be prepared for war with its neighbors and to deal with terrorist threats – the last of which is particularly manpower intensive, to the point that the need to allocate limited manpower resources to it is seriously effecting the IDF’s ability to staff and train units for conventional warfare. And, yes, the charedim are not the only people that do not serve but they are by far the largest and the most egregious group to avoid service.

12. Those Chareidi boys who want to serve, find a way to do so. Coercing the entire Chareidi yeshiva community into doing so won’t work. Those who want to change Chareidi society will have to change the rabbonim’s opinions on the matter, a daunting prospect at best. But, good luck, go ahead and try. But haranguing the Chareidi public about this probably won’t change the entire society. BTW, you let the cat out of the sack in your final sentence. “the most EGREGIOUS group to avoid service.” To remind our readers, the dictionary defines egregious as: “glaring; flagrant, extraordinary in some bad way.” Well, to put it mildly, many people would disagree with that label. But, save that for another discussion. We’re not getting too far with this one anymore. And as I already mentioned, we could go on quibbling endlessly about this, but I don’t think it’ll accomplish much. The key to change things is to change the opinion of the rabbonim. I appreciate you keeping this discussion quite civil. I wish you well.

13. american_yerushalmi – I think that we both realize that this change will have to come bottom up. The charedi gedolim simply cannot make the change by themselves for internal political reasons. That is why you must insist that it come top down – which won’t happen. But like other changes that the gedolim knew had to be made, such as higher education for parnassah reasons, they allowed change to come slowly from the bottom up while gently applying the brakes along the way to make sure that change wasn’t getting out of hand. It seems to me that that is what is happening now regarding service in the IDF. I certainly hope so. Time will tell.