“Fighting those who wish to destroy us allows for bitul Torah.”

That means that you can *join* the IDF to fight the terrorists, and other enemies who are *trying to destroy us*. Just saying, it’s a milchemet mitzva or the preparation for it.

And as far as your remark in #13 on deferments, I know tons of Yeshiva boys (and even some who aren’t) who keep getting deferments or have their induction date pushed up, please don’t state facts that you have no way of checking on the ground, or fiction or motzi shem ra.

The Chofetz Chaim is probably turning over in his kever again and again from all the Lashon Hara you are willing to speak about your fellow Jews (that is if you are a Jew, considering what you spew on a regular basis that is enough to start questioning your Jewishness).

As far as survival goes, Hashem clearly stated he won’t allow us to be destroyed and the gemara clearly states that the geula does *not* depend on us, at best we can speed it up with Torah and Mitzvos, but then Torah and Mitzvos outside of Israel according to that same gemara border on avoda zara/are just reminders of what you are supposed to do while in Israel.
Do you honestly believe that it is in the power of man to cancel the purpose of creation?

And regarding whether it’s a civil or military offense, in Israel you are “property of the army” from the moment you receive a draft notice until you are released from the army, therefore being AWOL is a military and not a civil offense.

lazerc: The IDF is no longer “deferring” yeshiva students, and yeshiva students are starting to become “refusers” (not “dodgers”). Instead of playing along with the system to avoid military service (tolerated draft “dodging”) they are now challenging the legitimacy of the state by refusing to serve (something in the past done only by a few radical individuals). This is a major change – from “draft dodging” to “treason.” It raise the stakes.

SecularFrummy: Do you really think the IDF has anything to do with Israeli or Jewish survival? It should be very obvious that Jewish survival is based on us doing Torah and Mitsvos, and Ha-Shem disposing of our enemies? Do you really think Hitler was stopped by Jewish soldiers marching into Berlin? Did Rome fall becaused we sacked its capital? Did the Jews rise up and defeat Haman in a civil war? The people who give up much of their livlihood to concentrate on learning Torah are the “front line” in the war against Jewish survival – and those seeking to undermine them are stabbing the Jewish people in the back. This is true today, it has been true for the last few millenia, and will be true in the future. Live with it.

Based on what can only be described as sheer jealousy, let me just take a guess here that your personal Torah learning and kovaya itim are simply non-existent.

The IDF does not induct 19 year old bochrim who submit the papers proving that they are in a yeshiva. Either the bocher did not submit the papers or he is not in a yeshiva or some other screw up on the bocher’s part.

The IDF will give extensions if the bocher did not get the papers needed in time.

Maybe he the bocher decided not to pay attention to the IDF’s call for sending in his papers? In which case he is a jerk.

My sons and sons-in-laws all dealt with the IDF. I know from experience myself what goes on there. SOME THING IS MISSING FROM THIS ARTICLE!