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	<title>Comments on: More Machlokes Ahead Of Elul</title>
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		<title>By: zionflag</title>
		<link>http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/israel-news/101783/more-machlokes-ahead-of-elul.html#comment-229764</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[zionflag]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Aug 2011 16:06:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/?p=101783#comment-229764</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[CHEIN,

Extremists can be called by any name you prefer, yet when property, physical, and emotional damage occurs the better name is JEWISH TERRORISTS.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>CHEIN,</p>
<p>Extremists can be called by any name you prefer, yet when property, physical, and emotional damage occurs the better name is JEWISH TERRORISTS.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Chein</title>
		<link>http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/israel-news/101783/more-machlokes-ahead-of-elul.html#comment-229708</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Chein]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Aug 2011 13:29:48 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[When one side refers to the other as &quot;extremists&quot;, you know the misrepresentation and hyperbole is at play, and the facts are left far behind.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When one side refers to the other as &#8220;extremists&#8221;, you know the misrepresentation and hyperbole is at play, and the facts are left far behind.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Sruchel</title>
		<link>http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/israel-news/101783/more-machlokes-ahead-of-elul.html#comment-229698</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Sruchel]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Aug 2011 11:31:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/?p=101783#comment-229698</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I feel that this (rather long) piece sums up the situation in Beit Shemesh very well:

If Extremism Wins…

In recent days, a bitter and entirely unnecessary conflict has broken out between a small collection of extremists in Beit Shemesh and a group of well-intentioned parents who have no interest other than to educate their daughters in a safe and nurturing environment.  Fearing the presence of a girls school close to their homes, villains masked as haredim have embarked on a campaign of terror and intimidation just days before the school was scheduled to open.

As law-abiding, tax-paying and peace-loving citizens of Beit Shemesh and Israel we are deeply shocked and dismayed over the actions of our elected government, and in particular, Mayor Moshe Abutbul, who is fully responsible for allowing this situation to escalate to the dangerous proportions it has. 

The Mayor has rejected the interests of the city’s residents, who he was elected to represent, in the face of what he claims are threats of violence by a small pocket of hooligans.   It was subsequently revealed that these claims were just another one of Abubul’s falsehoods as no documentation has ever been produced by the police regarding any real threats.

While some might believe that this is an issue which affects only us, the parents of Beit Sefer Orot Banot, or just the residents of Beit Shemesh, if the extremists are allowed to prevail in the supposed cause of their perverted view of Judaism, it will signal the start of a dangerous and deeply disturbing trend for our entire nation.

 On every level - legal, moral and practical - these extremists are armed only with arguments that defy any form of logic or rational thinking.  Legally, we, the representatives of Beit Sefer Orot Banot were provided every written and oral assurance that the building in question would be allocated for the educational use of our daughters.   Morally, it is deeply shocking  to suggest that the presence of a religious school (for modestly dressed girls aged between 6 and 12) should be offensive to anyone.  Practically, this school is not located within a haredi neighborhood as the Mayor and some in the media have come to suggest; but is rather situated between two neighborhoods.  On one side is a haredi neighborhood which is still under construction. On the the other a national religious neighborhood which has been in place since the late 1980’s and is home to several thousand families.

Contrary to what many might believe from the reports in the national media, the residents of Beit Shemesh live in large part in harmonious co-existence.  Bitter flare-ups of tensions like this are very much the exception and every effort is made to ensure that we can live alongside each other with respect.  Despite our diversity, or perhaps because of it, we firmly believe that as Jews living in the land of Israel we must respect the rights of others.  Haredi, chiloni, dati leumi, or even non-Jewish , we firmly believe that even when others might think differently than us, assuming they are willing to operate within the confines of the law and not impose their views upon others, we will welcome them as neighbors and even as friends.

This understanding has contributed to the remarkable growth of our town, a place where we were proud to raise our children and a locale that has attracted many new families from across Israel and around the world.

Yet, we are now deeply fearful that we no longer have a partner in that vision. We are further dismayed that  the one man who should be committed to helping us realize it is cowardly caving to the demands of a tiny group of dangerous ideologues who fear that anyone who is not like them represents a threat. 

Mayor Abutbul has repeatedly stated that while he wants to resolve this matter, he fears violence.  To that cowardice, we say that it is his job, and that of the police, to respond to violence and squash it to the fullest extent of the law.  We all pay taxes, support the police and  our government because we  believe that they will protect us in times of need.  Now is such a time of need; when villains are threatening our daughters and when religious extremism is pushing an insane agenda opposed to everything good for which this city and nation represents.

At this moment we are painfully forced to acknowledge that our city sits at a crossroads.  If the law-abiding residents of this city are victorious in this pursuit, and we are confident that we will be, then the future of Beit Shemesh remains bright and hope-filled. However, if the Mayor is not willing to stand up for his city and will allow it to fall into the hands of extremists than we are deeply fearful that the hopes for this city will all too-soon be lost.  And if Beit Shemesh is to fall to these absurdities, let there be no doubt that all too many other cities will soon fall as well.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I feel that this (rather long) piece sums up the situation in Beit Shemesh very well:</p>
<p>If Extremism Wins…</p>
<p>In recent days, a bitter and entirely unnecessary conflict has broken out between a small collection of extremists in Beit Shemesh and a group of well-intentioned parents who have no interest other than to educate their daughters in a safe and nurturing environment.  Fearing the presence of a girls school close to their homes, villains masked as haredim have embarked on a campaign of terror and intimidation just days before the school was scheduled to open.</p>
<p>As law-abiding, tax-paying and peace-loving citizens of Beit Shemesh and Israel we are deeply shocked and dismayed over the actions of our elected government, and in particular, Mayor Moshe Abutbul, who is fully responsible for allowing this situation to escalate to the dangerous proportions it has. </p>
<p>The Mayor has rejected the interests of the city’s residents, who he was elected to represent, in the face of what he claims are threats of violence by a small pocket of hooligans.   It was subsequently revealed that these claims were just another one of Abubul’s falsehoods as no documentation has ever been produced by the police regarding any real threats.</p>
<p>While some might believe that this is an issue which affects only us, the parents of Beit Sefer Orot Banot, or just the residents of Beit Shemesh, if the extremists are allowed to prevail in the supposed cause of their perverted view of Judaism, it will signal the start of a dangerous and deeply disturbing trend for our entire nation.</p>
<p> On every level &#8211; legal, moral and practical &#8211; these extremists are armed only with arguments that defy any form of logic or rational thinking.  Legally, we, the representatives of Beit Sefer Orot Banot were provided every written and oral assurance that the building in question would be allocated for the educational use of our daughters.   Morally, it is deeply shocking  to suggest that the presence of a religious school (for modestly dressed girls aged between 6 and 12) should be offensive to anyone.  Practically, this school is not located within a haredi neighborhood as the Mayor and some in the media have come to suggest; but is rather situated between two neighborhoods.  On one side is a haredi neighborhood which is still under construction. On the the other a national religious neighborhood which has been in place since the late 1980’s and is home to several thousand families.</p>
<p>Contrary to what many might believe from the reports in the national media, the residents of Beit Shemesh live in large part in harmonious co-existence.  Bitter flare-ups of tensions like this are very much the exception and every effort is made to ensure that we can live alongside each other with respect.  Despite our diversity, or perhaps because of it, we firmly believe that as Jews living in the land of Israel we must respect the rights of others.  Haredi, chiloni, dati leumi, or even non-Jewish , we firmly believe that even when others might think differently than us, assuming they are willing to operate within the confines of the law and not impose their views upon others, we will welcome them as neighbors and even as friends.</p>
<p>This understanding has contributed to the remarkable growth of our town, a place where we were proud to raise our children and a locale that has attracted many new families from across Israel and around the world.</p>
<p>Yet, we are now deeply fearful that we no longer have a partner in that vision. We are further dismayed that  the one man who should be committed to helping us realize it is cowardly caving to the demands of a tiny group of dangerous ideologues who fear that anyone who is not like them represents a threat. </p>
<p>Mayor Abutbul has repeatedly stated that while he wants to resolve this matter, he fears violence.  To that cowardice, we say that it is his job, and that of the police, to respond to violence and squash it to the fullest extent of the law.  We all pay taxes, support the police and  our government because we  believe that they will protect us in times of need.  Now is such a time of need; when villains are threatening our daughters and when religious extremism is pushing an insane agenda opposed to everything good for which this city and nation represents.</p>
<p>At this moment we are painfully forced to acknowledge that our city sits at a crossroads.  If the law-abiding residents of this city are victorious in this pursuit, and we are confident that we will be, then the future of Beit Shemesh remains bright and hope-filled. However, if the Mayor is not willing to stand up for his city and will allow it to fall into the hands of extremists than we are deeply fearful that the hopes for this city will all too-soon be lost.  And if Beit Shemesh is to fall to these absurdities, let there be no doubt that all too many other cities will soon fall as well.</p>
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		<title>By: zionflag</title>
		<link>http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/israel-news/101783/more-machlokes-ahead-of-elul.html#comment-229663</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[zionflag]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Aug 2011 04:06:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/?p=101783#comment-229663</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[A sad yet predictable problem. 
 Thank you #16 for the background and accurate reporting.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A sad yet predictable problem.<br />
 Thank you #16 for the background and accurate reporting.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: twisted</title>
		<link>http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/israel-news/101783/more-machlokes-ahead-of-elul.html#comment-229633</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[twisted]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Aug 2011 23:19:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/?p=101783#comment-229633</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[#14, if is confusing, read comments 11,12,13,15, and 16. That should be plain enough, and that is the reason for comments.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#14, if is confusing, read comments 11,12,13,15, and 16. That should be plain enough, and that is the reason for comments.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Tzirel613</title>
		<link>http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/israel-news/101783/more-machlokes-ahead-of-elul.html#comment-229597</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tzirel613]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Aug 2011 20:31:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/?p=101783#comment-229597</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@11 bklynmom - I&#039;ve been living in BS for 9 year and I am Dati LeUmi.  When we came here, this was a mixed city where people got along!  I remember the intense feeling of Ahavat Yisrael  that I felt when I drove down the road between BS and RBS A, passing through Chareidi RBS B and &quot;kvelling&quot; at the beautiful children;  boys with payot flying and girls with long braids.  I often stopped to give &quot;trempin&quot; to Chareidi women and occassionally frequented the shopping center there.  

But a few years back something changed.  Suddenly many of the women started wearing black ponchos, even in the Middle Eastern summer heat.  Then we started having trouble with rock throwing.  Then they started harassing our kids if they walked through the area on Shabbat - mind you, it&#039;s the only way to get to RBS A from BS unless you want to walk on an unlit, isolated, uninhabited highway.  It culminated with a young girl being beaten by a mob of &quot;Chareidi&quot; men.  A true Chareidi family - not one with quotes around the word - pulled her into their house to save her.  Not that it matters, but this girl was dressed in a tzanua fashion.

I have no problem with those who want to be isolationists.  I have a problem with isolationists who plop themselves down in the *middle* of a city and expect everyone around them to bend to their will. Beitar Ilit is totally off the beaten track.  If you choose to move there, you know what to expect.  There&#039;s an area called Cheftziba in BS that is totally off the beaten track as well - Kol Hakavod - live and be well!  But this particular group of extremist isolationists moved into buildings that are on the most major artery in BS, and currently the only one that connects BS to RBS A unless you go out of your way to go to the highway and circle round.  This is not an option if you want to walk to someone by foot on Shabbat, or bicycle over.

There was supposed to be a different major artery built, but the &quot;Chareidim&quot; stopped it because they didn&#039;t want it to run through their neighborhood.  There *IS* a spacious shopping center in this area that was built and abandoned before it opened - because &quot;Chareidim&quot; didn&#039;t want a shopping center in their area.

Understand, the entire surrounding area where these schools are now, finally B&quot;H, built, was originally supposed to be a mixed area.  That&#039;s why such a big mall was built to begin with.  On one side of the school is Ramat Neria, Nofei Aviv and Nofei Hashemesh.  Right across from the school is Sheinfeld.  These are all Dati Leumi areas (that also have some Chilonim, Yeshivish, Ethiopians, Russians).  But on the other side of the school, Chareidim moved in.  Only Chareidim.  These types of Chareidim immediately put up &quot;Tznius&quot; signs and started to vandalize property and harrass the people across the street because *their TVs could be seen from the Chareidims homes!!!*  

A lot of effort was expended on the part of the Dati Leumi communities to bridge gaps.  Mishloach Manot campaigns to our Chareidi neighbors, and all sorts of friendly gestures.  It dies down for a bit, but it always gets back to this.  The bullies always go back to true form.

If you want to live an isolationist life, you can&#039;t move in to the center of town, take over all the resources, and demand that everyone around you change.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@11 bklynmom &#8211; I&#8217;ve been living in BS for 9 year and I am Dati LeUmi.  When we came here, this was a mixed city where people got along!  I remember the intense feeling of Ahavat Yisrael  that I felt when I drove down the road between BS and RBS A, passing through Chareidi RBS B and &#8220;kvelling&#8221; at the beautiful children;  boys with payot flying and girls with long braids.  I often stopped to give &#8220;trempin&#8221; to Chareidi women and occassionally frequented the shopping center there.  </p>
<p>But a few years back something changed.  Suddenly many of the women started wearing black ponchos, even in the Middle Eastern summer heat.  Then we started having trouble with rock throwing.  Then they started harassing our kids if they walked through the area on Shabbat &#8211; mind you, it&#8217;s the only way to get to RBS A from BS unless you want to walk on an unlit, isolated, uninhabited highway.  It culminated with a young girl being beaten by a mob of &#8220;Chareidi&#8221; men.  A true Chareidi family &#8211; not one with quotes around the word &#8211; pulled her into their house to save her.  Not that it matters, but this girl was dressed in a tzanua fashion.</p>
<p>I have no problem with those who want to be isolationists.  I have a problem with isolationists who plop themselves down in the *middle* of a city and expect everyone around them to bend to their will. Beitar Ilit is totally off the beaten track.  If you choose to move there, you know what to expect.  There&#8217;s an area called Cheftziba in BS that is totally off the beaten track as well &#8211; Kol Hakavod &#8211; live and be well!  But this particular group of extremist isolationists moved into buildings that are on the most major artery in BS, and currently the only one that connects BS to RBS A unless you go out of your way to go to the highway and circle round.  This is not an option if you want to walk to someone by foot on Shabbat, or bicycle over.</p>
<p>There was supposed to be a different major artery built, but the &#8220;Chareidim&#8221; stopped it because they didn&#8217;t want it to run through their neighborhood.  There *IS* a spacious shopping center in this area that was built and abandoned before it opened &#8211; because &#8220;Chareidim&#8221; didn&#8217;t want a shopping center in their area.</p>
<p>Understand, the entire surrounding area where these schools are now, finally B&#8221;H, built, was originally supposed to be a mixed area.  That&#8217;s why such a big mall was built to begin with.  On one side of the school is Ramat Neria, Nofei Aviv and Nofei Hashemesh.  Right across from the school is Sheinfeld.  These are all Dati Leumi areas (that also have some Chilonim, Yeshivish, Ethiopians, Russians).  But on the other side of the school, Chareidim moved in.  Only Chareidim.  These types of Chareidim immediately put up &#8220;Tznius&#8221; signs and started to vandalize property and harrass the people across the street because *their TVs could be seen from the Chareidims homes!!!*  </p>
<p>A lot of effort was expended on the part of the Dati Leumi communities to bridge gaps.  Mishloach Manot campaigns to our Chareidi neighbors, and all sorts of friendly gestures.  It dies down for a bit, but it always gets back to this.  The bullies always go back to true form.</p>
<p>If you want to live an isolationist life, you can&#8217;t move in to the center of town, take over all the resources, and demand that everyone around you change.</p>
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		<title>By: zionflag</title>
		<link>http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/israel-news/101783/more-machlokes-ahead-of-elul.html#comment-229590</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[zionflag]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Aug 2011 19:57:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/?p=101783#comment-229590</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Dresscode or not has nothing to do with a building belonging to a school.
   Buy sunglasses, move out, walk on another block and find another building that can be used by the children you want educated there.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dresscode or not has nothing to do with a building belonging to a school.<br />
   Buy sunglasses, move out, walk on another block and find another building that can be used by the children you want educated there.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Yoseph Schreiber</title>
		<link>http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/israel-news/101783/more-machlokes-ahead-of-elul.html#comment-229579</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Yoseph Schreiber]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Aug 2011 19:13:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/?p=101783#comment-229579</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The article is vague and confusing. From it the reader can not tell what really is happening there.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The article is vague and confusing. From it the reader can not tell what really is happening there.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: mosbra</title>
		<link>http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/israel-news/101783/more-machlokes-ahead-of-elul.html#comment-229563</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[mosbra]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Aug 2011 17:53:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/?p=101783#comment-229563</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Most of the kids that go to the school will be WALKING to school. It is their neighborhood school. It would mean that they would incur significantly greater expense to go to the school -- not to mention that it would take them a lot longer to get there. 

The extremists do not live there -- they are mostly (to our knowledge) coming from RBS-B -- and they have come to other schools in RBS-A attempting to close them as well.

Re: the dress code. From first grade, there is a uniform which includes shirts over the elbow and with completely closed necks, long skirts, etc.. In any event, the school only has grades 1-6.

In general, these fanatics want the building for themselves. They have no interest in boys being there. When the boys school moved there several years ago, these same people did all they could to try and get that building as well. (They live a lot farther from this location than the population they are trying to kick out).

In general, many of the more extreme elements are trying to make the city become more similar to Me&#039;ah She&#039;arim (a bit more extreme in many ways) and would ideally like the dati le&#039;umi community that is already here to move out.

It is not a matter of &quot;giving in for the sake of peace&quot;. Unfortunately, the only thing that giving in will do at this point is encourage them to threaten and do more damage at the next juncture down the road.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Most of the kids that go to the school will be WALKING to school. It is their neighborhood school. It would mean that they would incur significantly greater expense to go to the school &#8212; not to mention that it would take them a lot longer to get there. </p>
<p>The extremists do not live there &#8212; they are mostly (to our knowledge) coming from RBS-B &#8212; and they have come to other schools in RBS-A attempting to close them as well.</p>
<p>Re: the dress code. From first grade, there is a uniform which includes shirts over the elbow and with completely closed necks, long skirts, etc.. In any event, the school only has grades 1-6.</p>
<p>In general, these fanatics want the building for themselves. They have no interest in boys being there. When the boys school moved there several years ago, these same people did all they could to try and get that building as well. (They live a lot farther from this location than the population they are trying to kick out).</p>
<p>In general, many of the more extreme elements are trying to make the city become more similar to Me&#8217;ah She&#8217;arim (a bit more extreme in many ways) and would ideally like the dati le&#8217;umi community that is already here to move out.</p>
<p>It is not a matter of &#8220;giving in for the sake of peace&#8221;. Unfortunately, the only thing that giving in will do at this point is encourage them to threaten and do more damage at the next juncture down the road.</p>
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		<title>By: zionflag</title>
		<link>http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/israel-news/101783/more-machlokes-ahead-of-elul.html#comment-229561</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[zionflag]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Aug 2011 17:33:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/?p=101783#comment-229561</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This bldg borders the Sheinfeld and Nof Aviv areas which are Torah Observant families who were allocated this particular building for the OROT school (which happens to be an excellent Torah school for girls). 
 The school is growing each year with parents from Ramat Bet Shemesh alef beginning to send their girls there to learn also. The arnona is paid by these residents and the school is theirs.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This bldg borders the Sheinfeld and Nof Aviv areas which are Torah Observant families who were allocated this particular building for the OROT school (which happens to be an excellent Torah school for girls).<br />
 The school is growing each year with parents from Ramat Bet Shemesh alef beginning to send their girls there to learn also. The arnona is paid by these residents and the school is theirs.</p>
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