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	<title>Comments on: Speaker Rivlin Fears Chareidim Will Fill the Jails Instead Of Serving In IDF</title>
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	<link>http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/israel-news/128387/speaker-rivlin-fears-chareidim-will-fill-the-jails-instead-of-serving-in-idf.html</link>
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		<title>By: Chaim Yankel</title>
		<link>http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/israel-news/128387/speaker-rivlin-fears-chareidim-will-fill-the-jails-instead-of-serving-in-idf.html#comment-259803</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Chaim Yankel]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 May 2012 04:34:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/?p=128387#comment-259803</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;Milhouse&quot;,
Good job on getting the Beis Yosef. I guess it was just too hard to get one of the better additions that include the Bedek Habayis like the &quot;Shiras Devorah&quot; addition. In any case I have a strange tendency to use the newer and more meduyak additions (which are based on older reliable kisvei yad ), but now that I looked at the old addition you quoted I see that the part I quoted is indeed missing in that addition. 
You can continue calling me a liar as long as you want, but the fact (and mabey you also know this yourself) is that in all the newer Mahaduros it is indeed the way I said it that the Beis Yosef says that today those dinim of Milchomo do not apply. This is also consistent with the fact that the Shulchan Oruch leaves out the Halacha of &quot;Ein Tzorin&quot; from 249. 
The example&#039;s that you give are irrelevant as there are not halachik proofs. There were a number of Mar Zutra&#039;s not to be confused with each other The Mar Zutra that rebelled was not an Amora as far as I know, although his son who died the day his father was killed later on became an Amora. What you call &quot;the Melitias of Nehardea&quot; was already discussed earlier they were not working in the context of and independent state but were subsurvient to Bovel.
The position of the Talmud about waging wars before Moshiach comes was expressed in Ksubos 111. &quot;Shelo Yimridu Ba&#039;umos&quot;.
The Rambam I quoted to you has nothing to do with whether there is a Mitzvo to live in Eretz Yisroel or not. You are mixing apples and oranges. The Ramba&quot;n does not argue with the Ramba&quot;m on this point at the end of the 14th Shoresh that there is no War and capturing of cities at the time when there is not Beis Hamikdash.
The Ramb&quot;am also mentions the shvuos at the end of Iggeres Teimon.
You seem to be very into your nonsense and nonsense could be endless. I cannot waste more time on your futile claims.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Milhouse&#8221;,<br />
Good job on getting the Beis Yosef. I guess it was just too hard to get one of the better additions that include the Bedek Habayis like the &#8220;Shiras Devorah&#8221; addition. In any case I have a strange tendency to use the newer and more meduyak additions (which are based on older reliable kisvei yad ), but now that I looked at the old addition you quoted I see that the part I quoted is indeed missing in that addition.<br />
You can continue calling me a liar as long as you want, but the fact (and mabey you also know this yourself) is that in all the newer Mahaduros it is indeed the way I said it that the Beis Yosef says that today those dinim of Milchomo do not apply. This is also consistent with the fact that the Shulchan Oruch leaves out the Halacha of &#8220;Ein Tzorin&#8221; from 249.<br />
The example&#8217;s that you give are irrelevant as there are not halachik proofs. There were a number of Mar Zutra&#8217;s not to be confused with each other The Mar Zutra that rebelled was not an Amora as far as I know, although his son who died the day his father was killed later on became an Amora. What you call &#8220;the Melitias of Nehardea&#8221; was already discussed earlier they were not working in the context of and independent state but were subsurvient to Bovel.<br />
The position of the Talmud about waging wars before Moshiach comes was expressed in Ksubos 111. &#8220;Shelo Yimridu Ba&#8217;umos&#8221;.<br />
The Rambam I quoted to you has nothing to do with whether there is a Mitzvo to live in Eretz Yisroel or not. You are mixing apples and oranges. The Ramba&#8221;n does not argue with the Ramba&#8221;m on this point at the end of the 14th Shoresh that there is no War and capturing of cities at the time when there is not Beis Hamikdash.<br />
The Ramb&#8221;am also mentions the shvuos at the end of Iggeres Teimon.<br />
You seem to be very into your nonsense and nonsense could be endless. I cannot waste more time on your futile claims.</p>
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		<title>By: Milhouse</title>
		<link>http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/israel-news/128387/speaker-rivlin-fears-chareidim-will-fill-the-jails-instead-of-serving-in-idf.html#comment-259712</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Milhouse]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2012 19:05:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/?p=128387#comment-259712</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Chaim Yankel, I&#039;m looking at the Beis Yosef, it&#039;s quite short and easy to read the whole thing, and there is not the slightest mention of what you are talking about.  This is the page I&#039;m looking at: http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14265&amp;pgnum=416  There isn&#039;t any reason why a censor would omit this, so there&#039;s no need to look at different editions.  You are simply making it up.  

And again you lie about the Bach. He does not &quot;make clear that Jewish people as a whole are not to wage wars&quot;.  Nowhere in his words is any such thing hinted at.  You are simply making it up.

Yes, the Rambam holds that mitzvas kibush ho&#039;oretz doesn&#039;t apply nowadays.  We all know that, it&#039;s a famous machlokes between him and the Ramban, but what has that got do with anything?  He certainly doesn&#039;t forbid wars, and nor does he say that a war to save Jews from attack is not a milchemes mitzvah.  The Rambam also (unlike the Ramban) holds that yishuv ho&#039;oretz is not a mitzvah nowadays, but he certainly doesn&#039;t forbid it; on the contrary, he encourages it!  So something not being a mitzvah doesn&#039;t mean we shouldn&#039;t do it.  And he doesn&#039;t mention the three shevu&#039;os at all, which means he doesn&#039;t hold them to be halacha, so he would permit (and perhaps even encourage) the conquest of EY bizman hazeh, if it proved possible.  So why you bring him up in the first place is a mystery.

What is an &quot;officially Jewish state&quot;, and how is it relevant?  The Khazars had a Jewish army, which had to follow halacha.  So did the Jewish Arab tribes whom Mohammed slaughtered, and the Jewish Berber tribes.  So did Mar Zutra&#039;s state, which was surely &quot;officially Jewish&quot; if such a concept even existed in those days, long before the Treaty of Westphalia created the modern  state.  And so did the Jewish militias of Nehardea, which the gemoro is talking about in Eruvin, in the language which ended up in Orach Chayim 329.  They are all Jewish armies, they are all bound by halacha, and they all have a &lt;i&gt;chiyuv&lt;/i&gt; (whether or not it&#039;s a formal mitzvah of the 613) to go to war when enemies threaten a &quot;border city&quot;.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chaim Yankel, I&#8217;m looking at the Beis Yosef, it&#8217;s quite short and easy to read the whole thing, and there is not the slightest mention of what you are talking about.  This is the page I&#8217;m looking at: <a href="http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14265&#038;pgnum=416" rel="nofollow">http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14265&#038;pgnum=416</a>  There isn&#8217;t any reason why a censor would omit this, so there&#8217;s no need to look at different editions.  You are simply making it up.  </p>
<p>And again you lie about the Bach. He does not &#8220;make clear that Jewish people as a whole are not to wage wars&#8221;.  Nowhere in his words is any such thing hinted at.  You are simply making it up.</p>
<p>Yes, the Rambam holds that mitzvas kibush ho&#8217;oretz doesn&#8217;t apply nowadays.  We all know that, it&#8217;s a famous machlokes between him and the Ramban, but what has that got do with anything?  He certainly doesn&#8217;t forbid wars, and nor does he say that a war to save Jews from attack is not a milchemes mitzvah.  The Rambam also (unlike the Ramban) holds that yishuv ho&#8217;oretz is not a mitzvah nowadays, but he certainly doesn&#8217;t forbid it; on the contrary, he encourages it!  So something not being a mitzvah doesn&#8217;t mean we shouldn&#8217;t do it.  And he doesn&#8217;t mention the three shevu&#8217;os at all, which means he doesn&#8217;t hold them to be halacha, so he would permit (and perhaps even encourage) the conquest of EY bizman hazeh, if it proved possible.  So why you bring him up in the first place is a mystery.</p>
<p>What is an &#8220;officially Jewish state&#8221;, and how is it relevant?  The Khazars had a Jewish army, which had to follow halacha.  So did the Jewish Arab tribes whom Mohammed slaughtered, and the Jewish Berber tribes.  So did Mar Zutra&#8217;s state, which was surely &#8220;officially Jewish&#8221; if such a concept even existed in those days, long before the Treaty of Westphalia created the modern  state.  And so did the Jewish militias of Nehardea, which the gemoro is talking about in Eruvin, in the language which ended up in Orach Chayim 329.  They are all Jewish armies, they are all bound by halacha, and they all have a <i>chiyuv</i> (whether or not it&#8217;s a formal mitzvah of the 613) to go to war when enemies threaten a &#8220;border city&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Chaim Yankel</title>
		<link>http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/israel-news/128387/speaker-rivlin-fears-chareidim-will-fill-the-jails-instead-of-serving-in-idf.html#comment-259613</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Chaim Yankel]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2012 03:44:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/?p=128387#comment-259613</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Milhouse...
You jump to conclusions very quickly. The BEIS YOSEF DOES SPEAK ABOUT THIS look again. Yes, indeed the Ba&quot;ch speaks about it, but the Beis Yosef does too. [mabey look at a better prints so you&#039;ll find it...] There is a disagreement between the B&quot;ach and the Beis Yosef as to whether the concept Milchemes Mitzva can exist at this time, Ba&quot;ch says it exists when you are helping a non Jewish army rescue Jewish captives Beis Yosef does not seem to think that this is under the Halachik category of Milchemes Mitzvah (although it may be a good thing to do). In any case Beis Yosef holds there is no din of Milchemes Mitzvah in our time. And Ba&quot;ch also makes clear that Jewish people as a whole are not to wage wars.
And NO! The Beis Yosef and the Ba&quot;ch are not &quot;observing a practical fact&quot; they say that this Halacha does not APPLY in our time (which is called Golus). Cf. the Ramba&quot;m Sefer hamitzvos at the end of the 14th Shoresh (study thoroghly) where he makes very clear that Milchama and Kibush Ayaros do not APPLY when there is no Beis Hamikdash.
In terms of the Kuzarim, as far as I know, although the king had converted and many of his citizens not everyone converted (or not even most) to Judaism and was not an officially Jewish state.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Milhouse&#8230;<br />
You jump to conclusions very quickly. The BEIS YOSEF DOES SPEAK ABOUT THIS look again. Yes, indeed the Ba&#8221;ch speaks about it, but the Beis Yosef does too. [mabey look at a better prints so you'll find it...] There is a disagreement between the B&#8221;ach and the Beis Yosef as to whether the concept Milchemes Mitzva can exist at this time, Ba&#8221;ch says it exists when you are helping a non Jewish army rescue Jewish captives Beis Yosef does not seem to think that this is under the Halachik category of Milchemes Mitzvah (although it may be a good thing to do). In any case Beis Yosef holds there is no din of Milchemes Mitzvah in our time. And Ba&#8221;ch also makes clear that Jewish people as a whole are not to wage wars.<br />
And NO! The Beis Yosef and the Ba&#8221;ch are not &#8220;observing a practical fact&#8221; they say that this Halacha does not APPLY in our time (which is called Golus). Cf. the Ramba&#8221;m Sefer hamitzvos at the end of the 14th Shoresh (study thoroghly) where he makes very clear that Milchama and Kibush Ayaros do not APPLY when there is no Beis Hamikdash.<br />
In terms of the Kuzarim, as far as I know, although the king had converted and many of his citizens not everyone converted (or not even most) to Judaism and was not an officially Jewish state.</p>
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		<title>By: Milhouse</title>
		<link>http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/israel-news/128387/speaker-rivlin-fears-chareidim-will-fill-the-jails-instead-of-serving-in-idf.html#comment-259543</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Milhouse]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 May 2012 18:58:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/?p=128387#comment-259543</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Chaim Yankel, I finally found what you were talking about, and sure enough, it&#039;s not in the Beis Yosef at all, but the Bach!  And he doesn&#039;t say what you claimed either.

He does &lt;i&gt;not&lt;/i&gt; say that we&#039;re not to go to war at this time, but merely points out the obvious fact that &quot;nowadays&quot;, i.e. in his time, we &lt;i&gt;didn&#039;t&lt;/i&gt; go to war.  There were no Jewish armies, and no prospect of any in the foreseeable future, so he wondered why the Tur brought down a practical halacha about war.  The Rambam wrote all the halochos, whether they&#039;re practical today or not, but the Tur only wrote those halochos that were in practise in his time, and yet here he cites a halacha about going to war and Oneg Shabbos!  So the Bach explains why this halacha is still relevant.

Nowhere, though, does the Bach say that we are &lt;i&gt;not&lt;/i&gt; to go to war on our own.   He merely observed as a practical fact that we &lt;i&gt;didn&#039;t&lt;/i&gt; go to war in his day, because we had no army.  Now that we do have an army, and do go to war, we can answer the Bach&#039;s question much better than he did: what wasn&#039;t practical in 14th century Spain or 17th century Poland was and is practical in other times and places of our current golus.  It was practical for the Kuzarim, it was practical for Mar Zutra, it was practical for the Jewish tribes of Arabia and the Jewish Berber tribes, and it is practical for the IDF today.    That is a deliberate misrepresentation on your part, for which you ought to apologise, but I don&#039;t expect that you will.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chaim Yankel, I finally found what you were talking about, and sure enough, it&#8217;s not in the Beis Yosef at all, but the Bach!  And he doesn&#8217;t say what you claimed either.</p>
<p>He does <i>not</i> say that we&#8217;re not to go to war at this time, but merely points out the obvious fact that &#8220;nowadays&#8221;, i.e. in his time, we <i>didn&#8217;t</i> go to war.  There were no Jewish armies, and no prospect of any in the foreseeable future, so he wondered why the Tur brought down a practical halacha about war.  The Rambam wrote all the halochos, whether they&#8217;re practical today or not, but the Tur only wrote those halochos that were in practise in his time, and yet here he cites a halacha about going to war and Oneg Shabbos!  So the Bach explains why this halacha is still relevant.</p>
<p>Nowhere, though, does the Bach say that we are <i>not</i> to go to war on our own.   He merely observed as a practical fact that we <i>didn&#8217;t</i> go to war in his day, because we had no army.  Now that we do have an army, and do go to war, we can answer the Bach&#8217;s question much better than he did: what wasn&#8217;t practical in 14th century Spain or 17th century Poland was and is practical in other times and places of our current golus.  It was practical for the Kuzarim, it was practical for Mar Zutra, it was practical for the Jewish tribes of Arabia and the Jewish Berber tribes, and it is practical for the IDF today.    That is a deliberate misrepresentation on your part, for which you ought to apologise, but I don&#8217;t expect that you will.</p>
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		<title>By: Milhouse</title>
		<link>http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/israel-news/128387/speaker-rivlin-fears-chareidim-will-fill-the-jails-instead-of-serving-in-idf.html#comment-259538</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Milhouse]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 May 2012 18:41:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/?p=128387#comment-259538</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Chaim Yankel, my assumption that you mistyped the siman number was reasonable, since you did it again just a bit later; but you&#039;re still a liar, because in 249 the Beis Yosef doesn&#039;t say anything like that either.  I&#039;m looking at it right now; it&#039;s quite short, and there is &lt;i&gt;nothing&lt;/i&gt; distinguishing this time from any other time.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chaim Yankel, my assumption that you mistyped the siman number was reasonable, since you did it again just a bit later; but you&#8217;re still a liar, because in 249 the Beis Yosef doesn&#8217;t say anything like that either.  I&#8217;m looking at it right now; it&#8217;s quite short, and there is <i>nothing</i> distinguishing this time from any other time.</p>
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		<title>By: Chaim Yankel</title>
		<link>http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/israel-news/128387/speaker-rivlin-fears-chareidim-will-fill-the-jails-instead-of-serving-in-idf.html#comment-259512</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Chaim Yankel]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 May 2012 15:36:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/?p=128387#comment-259512</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Milhouse,
&quot;Liar (I assume you meant 329)...&quot;
You call me a liar and then you assume...
I said BEIS YOSEF 249!!!
He writes we do not have Din Milchemes Mitzva or Milchemes Reshus at this time. 
The Shulchan Oruch in 329 has to be understood in the context of us living in the cities we live in in Golus under other political sovereigntys [and this is exactly the situation described in the Rokeach you just quoted] and YES! if anyone comes attacking us we have the obligation of defending ourselves. This does not mean that we are aloud to follow or support a leadership that violates what is said in Beis Yosef 249 (and many other sources) and gets into wars in order to get political sovereignty while we are still in Golus.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Milhouse,<br />
&#8220;Liar (I assume you meant 329)&#8230;&#8221;<br />
You call me a liar and then you assume&#8230;<br />
I said BEIS YOSEF 249!!!<br />
He writes we do not have Din Milchemes Mitzva or Milchemes Reshus at this time.<br />
The Shulchan Oruch in 329 has to be understood in the context of us living in the cities we live in in Golus under other political sovereigntys [and this is exactly the situation described in the Rokeach you just quoted] and YES! if anyone comes attacking us we have the obligation of defending ourselves. This does not mean that we are aloud to follow or support a leadership that violates what is said in Beis Yosef 249 (and many other sources) and gets into wars in order to get political sovereignty while we are still in Golus.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Milhouse</title>
		<link>http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/israel-news/128387/speaker-rivlin-fears-chareidim-will-fill-the-jails-instead-of-serving-in-idf.html#comment-259472</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Milhouse]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 May 2012 03:43:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/?p=128387#comment-259472</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[mdd, the string דוד doesn&#039;t appear on either side of that entire daf]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>mdd, the string דוד doesn&#8217;t appear on either side of that entire daf</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Milhouse</title>
		<link>http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/israel-news/128387/speaker-rivlin-fears-chareidim-will-fill-the-jails-instead-of-serving-in-idf.html#comment-259429</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Milhouse]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 May 2012 21:01:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/?p=128387#comment-259429</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[PS: I couldn&#039;t find it in the Agudah, but I found the Rokeach, and he doesn&#039;t say exactly like the MB quotes him.  It&#039;s chapter 196.  He certainly doesn&#039;t mention dina demalchusa.  He writes that when Worms came under attack we (the rabbonim of the city) allowed Jews to join the defense for two reasons: the attackers were יוצאין להרוג או ליהרג, so although they only wanted money it has a din of על עסקי נפשות; and because if the Jews didn&#039;t join the defense the local goyim would kill them themselves.

The MB is relying on this second reason, but he doesn&#039;t say that the locals will kill us if we don&#039;t join the defense, just that the government will be angry at us.  Maybe that&#039;s what he means, and he didn&#039;t want to say so because of the censor, or maybe the whole thing is for the censor&#039;s benefit and he expects us to look it up and find for ourselves when it&#039;s mutar and when it&#039;s asur. 

At any rate, the MB is certainly &lt;i&gt;not&lt;/i&gt; saying, as you claim, that we may only go to war if the government forces us.  If it&#039;s עיר הסמוכה לספר then it&#039;s a clear halocho that we &lt;i&gt;must&lt;/i&gt; go to war, even on Shabbos.  If it&#039;s not, and the raiders are not likely to kill anyone if we don&#039;t resist, then me`ikar hadin we may fight during the week but not on Shabbos, but the MB adds that nowadays if the government forces us we go anyway.

In Eretz Yisroel today every attack is עיר הסמוכה לספר.  That is obvious to anybody.  Therefore the clear halocho that is in the gemoro and agreed on by &lt;i&gt;all&lt;/i&gt; poskim, is that we must fight.  The only question is who should physically take up arms, and who should stay behind and learn for the benefit of the fighters, or cook for them, or procure arms, or fix tanks, or make sure they get paid, etc.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>PS: I couldn&#8217;t find it in the Agudah, but I found the Rokeach, and he doesn&#8217;t say exactly like the MB quotes him.  It&#8217;s chapter 196.  He certainly doesn&#8217;t mention dina demalchusa.  He writes that when Worms came under attack we (the rabbonim of the city) allowed Jews to join the defense for two reasons: the attackers were יוצאין להרוג או ליהרג, so although they only wanted money it has a din of על עסקי נפשות; and because if the Jews didn&#8217;t join the defense the local goyim would kill them themselves.</p>
<p>The MB is relying on this second reason, but he doesn&#8217;t say that the locals will kill us if we don&#8217;t join the defense, just that the government will be angry at us.  Maybe that&#8217;s what he means, and he didn&#8217;t want to say so because of the censor, or maybe the whole thing is for the censor&#8217;s benefit and he expects us to look it up and find for ourselves when it&#8217;s mutar and when it&#8217;s asur. </p>
<p>At any rate, the MB is certainly <i>not</i> saying, as you claim, that we may only go to war if the government forces us.  If it&#8217;s עיר הסמוכה לספר then it&#8217;s a clear halocho that we <i>must</i> go to war, even on Shabbos.  If it&#8217;s not, and the raiders are not likely to kill anyone if we don&#8217;t resist, then me`ikar hadin we may fight during the week but not on Shabbos, but the MB adds that nowadays if the government forces us we go anyway.</p>
<p>In Eretz Yisroel today every attack is עיר הסמוכה לספר.  That is obvious to anybody.  Therefore the clear halocho that is in the gemoro and agreed on by <i>all</i> poskim, is that we must fight.  The only question is who should physically take up arms, and who should stay behind and learn for the benefit of the fighters, or cook for them, or procure arms, or fix tanks, or make sure they get paid, etc.</p>
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		<title>By: mdd</title>
		<link>http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/israel-news/128387/speaker-rivlin-fears-chareidim-will-fill-the-jails-instead-of-serving-in-idf.html#comment-259428</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[mdd]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 May 2012 20:47:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/?p=128387#comment-259428</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Milhouse, Gemora at the end of Moed Kotan says that Dovid haMelech went to war (the omud before the last one).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Milhouse, Gemora at the end of Moed Kotan says that Dovid haMelech went to war (the omud before the last one).</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Milhouse</title>
		<link>http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/israel-news/128387/speaker-rivlin-fears-chareidim-will-fill-the-jails-instead-of-serving-in-idf.html#comment-259427</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Milhouse]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 May 2012 20:38:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/?p=128387#comment-259427</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;Beis Yoseif Orach Chaim 249 says the Jewish people are not to go in Wars at this time.&lt;/i&gt;

Liar.  (I assume you meant 329)  He says the exact opposite, that nowadays we must fight even if it&#039;s על עסקי ממון and not עיר הסמוכה לספר.  


&lt;i&gt;The shulchan Oruch on 229 is talking about a case when you are in a city and your obligated by your state to protect it (Mishna Brurah),&lt;/i&gt;

Liar, the MB says no such thing.  The Shulchon Oruch specifically says עיירות ישראל, not cities of other nations.  The MB explains that עיר הסמוכה לספר means a city that is on the border between a Jewish-inhabited area and a non-Jewish one.  This isn&#039;t a chidush of the Shulchon Oruch, it&#039;s a direct quote from the gemoroh, which is talking about Jewish cities in Nehardea.

&lt;i&gt;Then&lt;/i&gt; the MB adds a new thing, &lt;i&gt;not&lt;/i&gt; an explanation of the Shulchon Oruch &#8212; that even in a situation where according to the gemoro and the Shulchon Oruch we must not fight on Shabbos, nevertheless nowadays we must fight them for fear of government reprisals if we don&#039;t, and because of dina demalchusa dina.  This is not the halacha anyone is discussing here, and indeed it&#039;s probably not really a halacha at all, but only put in for the censor&#039;s benefit.  (The bit about dina demalchusa is &lt;i&gt;clearly&lt;/i&gt; only for the censor&#039;s benefit, because everyone who knows a little halacha can see that it&#039;s a ridiculous notion.  Whether the rest of that piska is also for the censor I&#039;m not sure; he says it&#039;s in the Agudah and the Rokeach, but doesn&#039;t give a reference so I could look it up.)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Beis Yoseif Orach Chaim 249 says the Jewish people are not to go in Wars at this time.</i></p>
<p>Liar.  (I assume you meant 329)  He says the exact opposite, that nowadays we must fight even if it&#8217;s על עסקי ממון and not עיר הסמוכה לספר.  </p>
<p><i>The shulchan Oruch on 229 is talking about a case when you are in a city and your obligated by your state to protect it (Mishna Brurah),</i></p>
<p>Liar, the MB says no such thing.  The Shulchon Oruch specifically says עיירות ישראל, not cities of other nations.  The MB explains that עיר הסמוכה לספר means a city that is on the border between a Jewish-inhabited area and a non-Jewish one.  This isn&#8217;t a chidush of the Shulchon Oruch, it&#8217;s a direct quote from the gemoroh, which is talking about Jewish cities in Nehardea.</p>
<p><i>Then</i> the MB adds a new thing, <i>not</i> an explanation of the Shulchon Oruch &mdash; that even in a situation where according to the gemoro and the Shulchon Oruch we must not fight on Shabbos, nevertheless nowadays we must fight them for fear of government reprisals if we don&#8217;t, and because of dina demalchusa dina.  This is not the halacha anyone is discussing here, and indeed it&#8217;s probably not really a halacha at all, but only put in for the censor&#8217;s benefit.  (The bit about dina demalchusa is <i>clearly</i> only for the censor&#8217;s benefit, because everyone who knows a little halacha can see that it&#8217;s a ridiculous notion.  Whether the rest of that piska is also for the censor I&#8217;m not sure; he says it&#8217;s in the Agudah and the Rokeach, but doesn&#8217;t give a reference so I could look it up.)</p>
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