AS far as your question about hesder and nachal chareidi, if you read this article clearly you will see that this General wants to abolish them. So even if they are worthy options to consider the point is mute if this misguided Jew gets his way. For those frum Jews that believe it is our religious duty to join the army they MUST fight tooth and nail against this General’s plan. I believe that those Gedolim that backed the hesder concept would today state openly (if they were still alive) that “if the hesder was disbanded, then we will refuse to send our talmidim to the army all together!”.

As far as the basic training I personally agree with you, but have not consulted chachomim on this. I do see, however, a concern that “give a nickel they’ll want a dime”. I could see the government first saying, “just to basic training so as to be prepared for war” and then later on forcing full time enlistment. Sort of like Pharoh originally hiring the Jews to do the labor and then tricking them into slavery. Unfortunately, this government is a wicked one and I could see them doing such a thing. So in theory, even though you are right (in my opinion), nonetheless in practice we may not be.

As far as your comments in #32, I hear them and it may be true by some people, but the point in question is whether the anti-zionist view has any bases. It is hard to determine this when you are not here to see things first hand. Regrettably, there is great evidence to support anti-zionistic views (except for Neturei Kartas (Nutty Cutters) who’s extreme views and Actions repulse most of us frum Jews). Perhaps it is them that you are refering to.

I welcome you to come here for a year or two or three, etc. You can come learn with us TRUE Zionist (the ones that sacrifice all the comforts of USA to live a life of Kedusha in Hashem’s holy land)

As far as the Medina is concerned, hopefully Mashiach will come soon and things will quickly get straighten out, B’EH.

Do you understand what I mean?

Ask any frum yid who’s been in the army and you’ll find out that it is not the healthiest environment for a Torah yid. I even had a fry soldier once tell me not to join. When I asked why, he told me that the immorality in the army was HORRIBLE! To be honest, I was quite surprised to hear that from a non-frum yid.

If a Jew is in the army and he nontheless strengthens himself to fulfill the mitzvas to the tee then of course we should praise him, but to idolize that type of life style?!

David HaMelech was one of the greatest Tzaddik we ever had. Nonetheless, Hashem didn’t allow the Beis Hamikdash to be completed in his life time due to the bloodshed on his hands. And you want to idolize this life style?!?! What’s wrong with you?

Sometimes we MUST kill, but let’s not act like the goyim and crown the warrior instead of the scholar!

Hashem Yiracham Alanu!

The fact is that your question was brought to the Chazon Ish and he gave an answer why still the answer is “NO”. I personally had your question years ago and when I heard the Chazon Ish’s answer I had to admit that he was right. It was THAT clear, THAT simple.

So this time I will advise you to go to a Beis Medrash or to a Gadol (If you live here in Israel ask his nephew Rav Chaim Kanievsky, shlita). It seems from your comment that you’ve gone to simple people. If you feel that you have an intelligent question, why would you seek an intelligent answer anywhere else than by another intelligent person? This puzzles me!

lesschumras – You bring out a good point that I’m not sure that even you realize. The point is that we are talking about a Non-Torah Jewish government here and that complicates things. Believe me, if we were talking about a Torah based government, there would be no point in discussion. The halachah is clear cut.

The issue at hand is how to deal with the present government that has power over our nation. Chazal state, “with the wicked be cunning”. The question becomes how we deal with this wicked government. (Don’t be fooled into thinking otherwise. This government acts like Esav.) We must deal with them like Yaakov. Sometimes that means holding our ground and sometimes that means making concession. When yes and when no we HAVE to leave up to our Chochumim to decide. The last time we fools though we knew better we almost got wiped out by a rasha named Haman.

For both of you – As far as during war time it is well known and clearly stated, “those that believe that their Torah learning and Tefillah are saving Klal Yisroel go learn and daven. Those that don’t go out and help fight.” (they say this in the name of the Rosh Yeshiva of the Mir during one of the wars, I think the 6 day war.)

When it is not war time, who told you that everybody has an obligation to be a soldier? Who told you that being a soldier is the greatest of all mitzvos in the Torah?

Yes, we need an army, but you do not have to have the ENTIRE nation enlist in order to have a functioning army. Most countries do not have mandatory service. The most powerful army in the world (USA) doesn’t have mandatory service. Even though our security situation is different it still doesn’t have to require everybody to join. We could draw lotteries on who needs to join. (BTW – just trivia info. In 1995 the Israeli government had stated that 22,000 men had exemptions due to learning in Yeshivas. That’s 22,000 all inclusive, not new deferments. In other words, the WHOLE argument about Religious Exemptions was over 22,000 men. With a population of nearly 5 million people, 22,000 people is not a whole lot.)

Yes, saving a life is a great mitzva, but it is not the greatest mitzva in the Torah. There are 3 mitzvas that you must give up your life not to transgress. How do you understand, “ViTalmud Torah Keneged KULAM”? How do you understand, “Derech Eretz KUDMA L’Torah”? “KUDMA”, not “GADOL” M’Torah!

Yes, we need to do more for others! We definitely need to strengthen ourselves in ALL those areas that you mentioned. But then again, let’s not be TOO hard on ourselves. If we only see our Chisronot and not our Mi’lot then we are endangering ourselves to fall prey to the chet ha’miraglim, “…we were like grasshoppers to them” (see the miforshim)

This topic is FAR beyond the scope of this website. I encourage you both to try to see and HEAR the other side before casting judgment on us that disagree with you. There are plenty of sources and Rebbeim out there where you can glean an understanding of the other side of the coin. I encourage you to use them.

B’Hatzlacha

At least for question 2, If I am not mistaken, some of the Rishonim consider a subcategory of a milchemes Mitzvah, more like a milchemes chovah, that is essentially a defensive or preemptive war, but not one for purely political reasons, which would be a milchemes reshus. I don’t have the sforim in front of me, but there is a discussion in Yad Chazokoh about this.

You tell me I can find answers to my questions on the web – a web which the same people in positions of power have often put beyond the pale of proper communal use – so in your opinion second-hand apologists for inconsistent communal standards posting furtive responses on a “forbidden” medium is what I should research?

No, thank you. I prefer my research to be real. and in asking the questions I have asked here face to face with real people, I have, unfortunately, not only not heard a response “that I want to hear”, I have heard silence, denial in the face of evidence, and a rejection of achrayus ish lereyeyhu. regarding my first point about utilizing opportunities to have a hashpo’oh on those not blessed to have grown up in our frum cocoon, there simply is no coherent “answer” to a question of why responsible yidden shirk their responsibility to Am Yisroel. Your parents didn’t make sacrifices to give you a solid education so that you could hoard it like a pirate in his cave. You and I have a responsibility to all of Am yisroel, and that includes utilizing opportunities like sherut leumi to exemplify Torah Judaism to them.

And My dear Joseph, I’d like to hear that I am wrong, and please correct me if I am, but does your concern for the holiness of chiloni army age women extend to inviting them to a shiur, or to your family’s home for a shabbos meal? To polite treatment of respect and honour as bnos Rivka v’Rochel? To allowing your daughters to exemplify Torah values to them in some kind of interaction?
If the answer is yes, boruch hashem, Your application of the Chazon Ish’s words are a fitting rebuke for me, which I welcome. But if not, I wonder at your concern for their adherence to the Chazon Ish’s psak if you can’t be bothered to reach out to them in a useful, meaningful way.

In truth the answer is quite simple and straight forward and I could tell you, but I want you to place in some effort, so I leave it up to you to research the web.

Good luck!

“… has come out once again against females seeking a deferment from military service due to their religious convictions.”

and

“…the senior commander stated 85% of positions in the military can be filled by male and female personnel alike, rejecting the growing number of people not serving as a result of their religious beliefs.”

Both statements show a clear rejection of Daas Torah. You’re not placing to heart that the Gedolim (lead by the Chazon Ish) stated that a girl is required by Hashem to give up her life rather than serve in the army! Do you really think they were exaggerating when they said that?! IF so, you clearly do not know history!

Also, just to point out (and I don’t know if this still applies), in the 1980′s the highest abortion rate in the WORLD was the Israeli army! Doesn’t that tell you something? Doesn’t that bother you? I certainly hope so!

This army may predominantly consist of Jews, but it surely is NOT a Jewish army (I.E. one based on Torah values)!

Also, here is a quote you can view on the web it you can’t make it to a Beis Medrash.

Exemption
Already in the Torah, there is indication that not all the Jews participated actively in the actual fighting:

Ach et shevet Levi lo tifkod v’et rosham lo tisa

But the tribe of Levi you shall not count [in the military census], nor number their heads.28

The entire tribe of Levi was excluded from active warfare, and therefore there was no need to include them in the military census. Rambam rules that the tribe of Levi did not inherit a portion of the land, “because they were separated for one task – to serve [in the Temple] and to teach His righteous ways… therefore they were separated from the ways of the world, and they do not wage war as do the other Israelites.”

But then Rambam adds,

V’lo shevet Levi bilvad, ela kol ish v’ish mikol baei haolam asher nadva rucho oto v’hevino midaato.

Not only the tribe of Levi, but any individual whose spirit moves him to… separate himself to stand before G-d and to serve him, to know Him.. and he removes from his neck the yoke of considerations which most people see, behold this person becomes most holy.

Jewish thinking recognizes and respect those individuals who reject the pursuit of material goods as their goal and dedicate themselves instead to a higher ideal. Such a person should not be called up even for defense of the country. The source for this practice long predates the Rambam: the Gemara (Nedarim 32a) criticizes Avraham Avinu for having roused the scholars in his entourage and pressed them into joining his troop which gave chase against the four kings who had raided the land. Similarly, the Gemara in Sotah 10a concludes that King Asa was punished by heaven for conscripting Torah scholars into his army.”

IT PAYS TO LEARN!!!!!