In reply to #28, I don’t think people necessarily want complete reformation of the system, but there is currently a massive deficit in the mosdos budget, and some practical way of reducing this deficit would be helpful. Obviously the ideal is that there is enough money to go round such that everyone who wants, and is able, can learn for as long as they want. Currently, for financial reasons (amongst other reasons), many boys leave the system. The ones who have a true love of Torah will try to find a vocation in the Torah world. The rest will try to eke out a living, and unfortunately most of these have not had an adequate training, which prevents them from being able to do a vast number of jobs. More facilities are now being made available to help prepare these individuals for the workplace, and this is to be greatly encouraged. There is a fine line between discouraging people to leave yeshiva / kollel, and discouraging it to such an extent that they are left to their own devices with no support network and the risk of going “off”, rather than integrating them into the baalei batish community.

-Telegrok, you make me nauseous. WE are the Am kadosh, mamleches kohanim. Should we look to the goyim to model our heilige Torah?????

-What it boils down to is that you all think you make your money. You don’t. This is a friendly reminder that there is a G-d in this world who filled up your bank accounts and, yes, also made the market crumble.

What we need (contrary to the popular call for complete reformation ch”v of what is better know as “the system”) is for Torah to flourish so that this world can continue. Oddly enough, you all seem to want it to end.

I know that some kollelim operate systems like this, and would be curious to hear feedback…

I would just like to inform the “experts” above that in Eretz Yisroel there are a LOT of Chareidim in the work force – and more are needed.

Chareidim are not punished for being Chareidim. Personally I have worked in both Jerusalem and Tel Aviv (at HOT – a Chiloni “stronghold”) in Hi Tech and I was not alone. I was not despised nor looked down upon.

There are plenty of people in full Chasidish Levush in Hi Tech, and they don’t work on Chol HaMoed, they go home early for Chanuka licht and have great relationships with their employers.

I have picked up many Chiloni friends over the years.

The only problem I have ever encountered is the invented hatred by people who would like it to exist; but in the field it’s not there.

Please stop trying to invent a problem that doesn’t exist.

So, where I was not clear about “an unemployed family,” I meant a family whose father is looking for work.

I also think that the privilege of learning should not be reserved only to those who are financially able to not work – perhaps we should look toward a model used in the goyishe velt by people who want to study but be supported by a university or organization – they submit a grant proposal – they explain what they want to achieve, the value it will bring to that particular academic discipline, how much it will cost, etc. – and the university or government has experts and they review numerous applications and say, “This guy gets a lab for a year to study, this one does not.” In this model, prospective yungerleit seeking public support would give such a proposal to the hanhala of the yeshiva – and maybe the yeshiva would say, “we have funds to support 30 men in learning full-time,” and they would pick the most promising

With logic like this, why get out of bed?

You seem to be suggesting that people should stay in kollel and take money from the community since they would probably not make the money from working anyway.

This is along the lines of many others on this site that insist that it is more practical to take from the government / gvirim than it is to work for a living.

This is a frightening line of thinking which will lead to absolute disaster. It is time for people to wake up and realize what is happening. It is time to take serious preventative action so that you do not have an entire generation of young people that are “on the take”

Yes, we all need to do our part to help people that are suffering, however: “give a man a fish and feed him for a day; Teach him how to fish and feed him for a lifetime”

Hashem Yaazor.

b- its so easy to knock something you dont understand or appreciate its chashivus.

c- # 16 telegrok -
you contradict yourself!
“But I cannot in good conscience feed an able-bodied man and neglect an unemployed family or older person.”

look at that – what about if the unemployed family has an able-bodied man? and what about the woman? (notice how you use the word family for the unemployed )