Perhaps you do not understand, I have always held that Palestinians who fire rockets indiscriminately at civilians are committing a war crime.

However most Israeli “supporters” often argue that “two wrongs make a right” which is a pet peeve of mine since it is incorrect.

I am quite sure that nearly every mother on the planet tells their children that “two wrongs DO NOT make a right” as a matter of schoolyard/backyard routine.

Actions by Palestinian militant groups do not under any circumstances relieve Israel of its responsibilities under international law.

Israel is excruciatingly well aware of this. That is why the state is going out of its way, through a massive propaganda effort that they themselves are advertising, in an effort to discredit the mandate of the UN Mission or Richard Goldstone himself, without ever addressing the fact that they refused to take part in the report yet Hamas did, and Israel refuses to even acknowledge and of the substance of the report.

That strategy is obviously failing badly and damaging Israel.

The longer Israel continues to ignore the findings of fact contained in the report, the more grave the consequences for Israel’s national image in the world and its very future.

Israel can throw away that rhetorical absurdity “the IDF is the most moral army in the world” because there is now evidence that the IDF commits war crimes and possible crimes against humanity and yet refuses to bring the perpetrators to justice.

even if Israel is wrong two wrongs don’t make a right (they should’ve went to america (or the rest of the u.n. with this claim.

Notwithstanding the fact that Ban Ki-Moon has affirmed that Gaza is still occupied by Israel and that his spokesperson also affirmed that nothing less than UN Security Council action can change that fact.

Let me punctuate that with the following from Israel’s own government.

In the first version of Ariel Sharon’s “Disengagement Plan” from April 16, 2004 here’s an excerpt from the Main Points section:

“1. Israel will evacuate the Gaza Strip, including all existing Israeli towns and villages, and will redeploy outside the Strip. This will not include military deployment in the area of the border between the Gaza Strip and Egypt (“the Philadelphi Route”) as detailed below.

2. Upon completion of this process, there shall no longer be any permanent presence of Israeli security forces or Israeli civilians in the areas of Gaza Strip territory which have been evacuated.

3. As a result, there will be no basis for claiming that the Gaza Strip is occupied territory.”

Here’s the adopted version of May 28, 2004 “Disengagement Plan from the Main Points section that contains some pertinent revisions:

“1) The State of Israel will evacuate the Gaza Strip, including all existing Israeli towns and villages, and will redeploy outside the Strip. This will not include military deployment in the area of the border between the Gaza Strip and Egypt (“the Philadelphi Route”) as detailed below.

2) Upon completion of this process, there shall no longer be any permanent presence of Israeli security forces in the areas of Gaza Strip territory which have been evacuated.”

Hmmm, there’s no paragraph three ending the occupation. And the term “Israeli civilians” have been removed from paragraph two.

Of course to international legal authorities, including Richard Goldstone, the fact that the final plan says “The State of Israel will guard and monitor the external land perimeter of the Gaza Strip, will continue to maintain exclusive authority in Gaza air space, and will continue to exercise security activity in the sea off the coast of the Gaza Strip…” – that pretty much says it all, Israel claims “exclusive authority,” and as that authority, Israel legally occupies the Gaza Strip.

As far as your “evidence” – don’t try and convince me, I have no idea why no one would consider your logical fallacy, in other words your “appeal to authority” of some ex-Brit officer touting the IDF official line. It nearly matches the IDF’s prose word for word.
“Some ex-Brit officer” – note the attempt to make the commander of British forces in Afghanistan out to be an insignificant ex-soldier.
“touting the IDF official line” – Implication: Israel fed him his script. This is not his honest independently-arrived-at conclusion.

Hasbara used to actually work before the Internet and Satellite TV, now it does not not.
A baseless yet unprovable claim. Several internet blogs have, in fact, shown that Photoshop is liberally used to make Israeli-caused damage seem much worse than it really was.

The fact is, Israel did use Gaza civilian as human shields… If soldiers did so it was against command orders, not as policy. Unfortunately, there will always be individuals who violate orders concerning battlefield behavior. Note the implication that this is official Israeli battlefield conduct.
…and furthermore they were caught in a lie when they tried to claim that militants were firing from a UN compound.
Ehud Olmert said the IDF was fired upon from the UN building. Ban Ki Moon said they weren’t. If anything, this sounds like a battlefield mistake, similar to the one that saw IDF members killed in a friendly-fire incident.

Indeed, Goldstone’s mission found no credible evidence that Palestinian militants used civilians as shields.
If you come up with hard evidence, contact the Office for the High Commissioner of Human Rights at the UN.
Baloney.
Goldstone said they couldn’t prove that Hamas deliberately herded civilians into areas they were launching attacks from, nor was there evidence that they didn’t allow civilians to flee.
Remember, much of the “evidence” came from Hamas-supplied witnesses.
And what about the fact that the launch sites were deliberately set up in civilian areas to begin with? Why isn’t that considered “using human shields”? Having out-of-uniform combatants fighting from among civilians is a clear violation of Geneva convention rules.

“On the basis of the investigations it has conducted, the Mission did not find any evidence to support the allegations that hospital facilities were used by the Gaza authorities or by Palestinian armed groups to shield military activities and that ambulances were used to transport combatants or for other military purposes.”
Using ambulances, UN vehicles and other emergency vehicles is a tried-and-true tactic used against Israel. The soldiers abducted and murdered by Hezbolla in the north were tricked by terrorists using UN vehicles. There is a well-known youtube video of a Palestinian ambulance caught transporting an explosive suicide-bomber belt.

And then the canard about ‘Israel left, Gazans destroyed stuff’ first of all, so what? It’s their stuff.
Canard? It’s an undisputed fact.
But to answer the charge, there was some looting (complete destruction) of some (all) greenhouses for the wiring and the pumps – imagine, in one of the most impoverished places on the planet, the occupiers purposely leave a security vacuum and then there was looting of shiny new objects by the victims of the occupiers…
(“…purposely leave a security vacuum…” as opposed to… the IDF staying?)
They were simple childlike creatures who didn’t realize they were destroying valuable greenhouses donated to them by philanthropic Jews. All they saw was “shiny new objects”.

And the worst part is, that occupation continues to this day. Not only the Goldstone Report and the entire world community hold that Gaza is still occupied, so does Israel’s High Court…
Baloney.
Goldstone and a some organizations have that position.
Israel disagrees vehemently.
As I explained above, that definition of “occupation”, and the comparison Goldstone makes to WWII Denmark defy common sense.

In answer to your other charges, that Palestinian armed groups used ambulances to fight from see page 148 of the Goldstone Report, paragraph 485:

“On the basis of the investigations it has conducted, the Mission did not find any evidence
to support the allegations that hospital facilities were used by the Gaza authorities or by Palestinian armed groups to shield military activities and that ambulances were used to transport combatants or for other military purposes.”

And then the canard about ‘Israel left, Gazans destroyed stuff’ first of all, so what? It’s their stuff.

But to answer the charge, there was some looting of some greenhouses for the wiring and the pumps – imagine, in one of the most impoverished places on the planet, the occupiers purposely leave a security vacuum and then there was looting of shiny new objects by the victims of the occupiers…

And the worst part is, that occupation continues to this day. Not only the Goldstone Report and the entire world community hold that Gaza is still occupied, so does Israel’s High Court and just ask the Israeli Foreign Ministry who has complete authority over Gaza…

The Palestinians of course talk. I talk to them all of the time. I’m always intrigued by people who make claims like yours.

As far as your “evidence” – don’t try and convince me, I have no idea why no one would consider your logical fallacy, in other words your “appeal to authority” of some ex-Brit officer touting the IDF official line. It nearly matches the IDF’s prose word for word.

Hasbara used to actually work before the Internet and Satellite TV, now it does not not.

The fact is, Israel did use Gaza civilian as human shields and furthermore they were caught in a lie when they tried to claim that militants were firing from a UN compound.

Indeed, Goldstone’s mission found no credible evidence that Palestinian militants used civilians as shields.

If you come up with hard evidence, contact the Office for the High Commissioner of Human Rights at the UN.

Comment by bbsnews — October 28, 2009 @ 10:47 am
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Who is “us”? In other words, please tell us a bit about yourself, bbsnews.

to whom should i bring witnesses
from the palestineans they wont talk.
from the israelis they’ll say theyre lying ill direct you to a video that ywn posted recently from the un
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/YWN+Videos/40923/VIDEO:+UN+Watch+has+What+to+Say+About+the+Goldstone+Report.html
i hope this is enough proof for you

There is a very valid reason that Israel is losing support even from its friends – that would be because Israel is out of control and is increasing the world terrorism level.
“Out of control” Israel according to Goldstone:
-dropped leaflets warning of attacks
- made phone calls warning of attacks
- developed and used “roof knocker” munitions to frighten civilians away from areas to be attacked
- but none of these measures were enough (of course).
Israel increases terrorism by fighting terrorists.
The U.S. increases terrorism by fighting terrorists.
We should just stop fighting terrorists and then they’d go away.

Given that he is a committed Jew and Zionist, a man of impeccable credentials, he even serves on the board of Hebrew University in Jerusalem and you are claiming here that he just ignored the evidence?
Goldstone recognized that the commission was set up to frame Israel in the worst possible light by not even investigating Hamas’s brutality, terrorism and war crimes. Israel recognized the same thing. Despite his supposed insistence on investigating the entire war, evidence was in some cases ignored, in some cases played down, and in some cases discounted.

Hamas is part of the legal elected government in Palestine. I’m curious as to where you get your information?
That Hamas murdered their Fatah opponents in imaginatively brutal fashion, such as taking them to hi-rise buildings and throwing them off? That info comes straight from the news.

Nearly every expert and analyst that I have talked to and am aware of have made it quite clear that Hamas must be included in any future settlement to the conflict.
What type of settlement can be reached with a terrorist entity that declares they will never accept a state of Israel in any form, all Jews are legitimate military targets, and funds children’s TV programs glorifying suicide bombings and encouraging the kids to aspire to become one?

Start back when Israel nurtured Hamas as a counter-weight to Arafat back when they were primarily a humanitarian organization.
Their “humanitarianism” is baloney.
What humanitarian thinks it’s OK to murder babies in cold blood?
They are a group of religious murderous fanatics.

You’ll find that Israel created Hamas and radicalized the organization
Israel did think Hamas would counter the Fatah (bad move) but they were radical (i.e. terrorist) from day one.

They didn’t spring up out of nowhere. They were brought out, by Israel’s own actions.
They were brought about by Israel’s existence – just like every other anti-Israel terror group. Israel had to fight for its existence vs. invading armies from its day of creation, and the attacks have continued ever since and for the same reason – they can’t accept a Jewish state in the Middle East.

Hamas is part of the legal elected government in Palestine. I’m curious as to where you get your information?

Nearly every expert and analyst that I have talked to and am aware of have made it quite clear that Hamas must be included in any future settlement to the conflict.

Perhaps you should study up a bit on the issue and find out what the experts actually have to say?

Start back when Israel nurtured Hamas as a counter-weight to Arafat back when they were primarily a humanitarian organization.

Study up on when and why that changed.

You’ll find that Israel created Hamas and radicalized the organization; you did know that Hamas has only existed about half the time of the occupation?

They didn’t spring up out of nowhere. They were brought out, by Israel’s own actions.