Comments on: Yerushalayim: ‘Shame Parade’ being fought by Frum MK’s

By: mdlevine

mdlevine — Thu, 31 May 2007 17:47:58 +0000

nameless said

“I might have the YH to steal the artwork but obviously I can conquer that. Whereas in the other case, there is no YH at all”

why do you say that the Y’H does exost for the abomination? there are those that are tested with this AND they pass!

…as was posted earlier on the board by Joseph, if the Torah requires something of us, it is not impossible to do. the requirement can either be active or doing something or refraining from doing other things.

By: nameless

nameless — Thu, 31 May 2007 15:27:14 +0000

I was talking about people who have NO yetzer hora to this whatsoever. THEY are the ones who refrain very easily!

By: Moe

Moe — Thu, 31 May 2007 13:49:46 +0000

nameless, I read your post quite carefully. And I commented on what you in fact said. You clearly said in several of your above posts that if someone has a taaveh for this perversity, they can not refrain from it. For example, you state above: Nobody ‘refrains’ from perversities. And I tell you are as wrong as white is not black. There are many people who are tempted to engage in this abominable behaviour that do refrain from engaging in it.

By: nameless

nameless — Thu, 31 May 2007 05:13:24 +0000

Moe,

When I say I deplore whats is repulsive to most, I am referring to the subject we are discussing in this blog!

As far as your second point, please reread my post.I said that those, who by nature think this act to be disgusting WILL NOT BE TEMPTED in any case.

MDLEVINE:

It says ‘lo signov’. But does the Torah eloborate on stealing being an abomination as it does with the subject we are discussing?

I might have the YH to steal the artwork but obviously I can conquer that. Whereas in the other case, there is no YH at all

By: mdlevine

mdlevine — Thu, 31 May 2007 02:05:57 +0000

nameless: you wrote “You still didnt answer my question as to why this sin only applies to men?
If its just a question of choice why should any abnormal twisted conduct be allowed?”

the Gemara in Sanhedrin discusses this. there is a mishnah on the bottom of daf nun-dalet (page 54a). there is additional discussion on daf nun-ches (58b).

these sources will answer your questions. The Artscroll commentary explains it nicely.

By: Moe

Moe — Wed, 30 May 2007 23:45:28 +0000

nameless, why do you “deplore anything which is repulsive to most”? Most people are repulsed by a 80 percent of body burn victim. That is because of the valuses non-Jewish society instills.

Anyhow, you think there are no people tempted by this perversion who do not succumb to it? Then I say, take your head of the sand.

By: mdlevine

mdlevine — Wed, 30 May 2007 21:14:38 +0000

nameless – I am sure you are jesting about stealing a piece of artwork however, your comment proved the point that Joseph was making. Stealing is repulsive. The Torah tells us that we can not steal. You surpress your urge to take what is not yours – these deviant people need to surpress their desire to do what is wrong also!

By: nameless

nameless — Wed, 30 May 2007 19:25:48 +0000

Well, I guesse we just have adifference of opinion Joseph! I deplore anything which is repulsive to most and cant imagine ever being able to succumb to it, However I do have an urge once in a while to waltz into an art Gallery and walk away with a priceless ‘picasso’!

But to each his own! Feel free to have the last word here,,,,,

By: Joseph

Joseph — Wed, 30 May 2007 16:58:13 +0000

nameless,

You are making faulty assumptions. There are many people with the the taaveh to engage in this sickness (and it was classified as a mental sickness untill political pressue was applied to the APA), but REFRAIN from it.

Secondly yes, it is the same Yetzer Hora who tempts you to the material pleasure of stealing, that tempts you to the physical pleasure of this perversity.

By: nameless

nameless — Wed, 30 May 2007 15:26:13 +0000

Jos,

Yetzer hora to steal or do anything that might bring you material or emotional satisfaction is NOT the same as indulging in perverse conduct. Nobody ‘refrains’ from perversities. THOSE who dont indulge in this behaviour, dont do it because it doesnt appeal to them. I can guarantee you that if the Yetzer Hora tries to pursuade an individual who is naturally repulsed by this act, he (the yetzer hora) will never succeed!