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It seems that two Rabbanim in Lakewood have put out a letter telling people not to patronize a burger restaurant in Toms River, NJ beacuse it “has an environment that adds to the degrading of accepted boundaries.” It seems they are referring to Jewish children who hang out there. I have seen quite a stir in which most people are lambasting the Rabbanim for small-mindedness and intolerance to elements of our community that don’t “fit the box”.
Discuss.
@Rocky:
Why would you be machshil people in dishonoring those rabbanim?That call doesn’t show intolerance of anyone. They presumably fully sympathize with those suffering souls, as everyone should.
However, given the “facts on the ground” at that establishment, they don’t want frum people going there.I have a theory that the majority of cheesecake bought for shavuos ends up in the garbage (and hence eaten by the local squirrels-or whatever your local animals are). People get all excited about keeping the minhag and ended up buying, making or getting gifts of cheesecake for much more than is able to be consumed. Also,most people end up eating more fleishig than milchig meals (especially this year with one day shabbos) and hence the opportunities to consume all the cheesecake are quite limited.
Funny how two rabbis can publicly damage a fellow Jew’s livelihood with vague phrases like “degrading boundaries,” yet never specify a single illegal act, kashrus issue, or actual aveirah taking place there.
A burger shop where teenagers hang out is now treated like Sodom? Since when did a few kids eating fries and talking become a communal emergency worthy of public blacklisting?
And did anyone bother speaking privately to the owner first before trying to economically strangle his business in public?
People are tired of this vague, insinuating style of public shaming. If there’s a real problem, say what it is plainly. If not, this just looks like small-minded social policing dressed up as righteousness.
AMEN!!!
Rocky,
If it’s the restaurant I think you’re referring to then I can tell you that the same restaurant in the 5 towns is a hangout and their promotions idolize sports memorabilia so it’s understandable where this is coming from that they don’t want that in Lakewood
It seems that commentators want everyone to be understanding of the poor burger joint and the poor children hanging out there. And it is true, we should be. But please understand. The rabbis have other parents come crying to them thaat their children are being affected by the hangout. This is a warning that that is what is happening there. The owners have a right, and perhaps should be commended for having a safe place for such children to hang out. That doesn’t mean that they shouldn’t warn others to beware. And please don’t be obtuse. Degrading boundaries means boys and girls hanging out together doing who know what (yes, you do know what) and possibly drugs, smoking, etc.
The first rule of helping others is do no harm in the process. here it means affecing others.
The question is, is this lashon hara, if it is that applies to rabbanim also
I am always fascinated by the actions taken by the rabbinical mafioso in Lakewood to control people. It is only about control. Yet, these very same rabbis will not discuss nor put out letters and the like on yiddishe ganovim running around Lakewood. And you all know what goes on in Lakewood with dirty real estate details, cash advances, and being the capital of Ponzi schemes. All you so-called rabbonim know it but your problem is that you set aside Torah for money. Yes, money trumps everything in Lakewood.
I don’t know at what point it became acceptable to bash holy rabbis and put them down just because you don’t agree with them on something. They definitely looked into it and found the problem to be prevalent. All the people that have the hands off approach and don’t think there’s any issue should know that we’ve been down that road before, and once there’s an improper atmosphere that affects young people, it could be many years before some of the damage gets fixed. Any Jewish Soul lost is one too many, and a place that can affect negatively the spiritual well-being of our children has to be addressed. If you don’t think that’s important the problem already hit you long ago
We’ve been down this road before in many communities and multiple Generations, the rabbis are not stupid and naive. The spiritual well-being of our children is top priority and while many people may not see it as a big deal if a few get lost, there’s no permission to gamble with even a single one of them. Rabbi’s are our spiritual leaders and when they see a danger the right thing to do is respect them and know that they didn’t just decide this overnight like some people think. If your attitude is what’s the big deal that means the problem already hit you long ago and affected you to this day
Reb emes. I understand your point. But what about the damage to the store. Did the store people ask for those people to come in. It’s not the stores fault or responsibility….and again it’s all dependant on educating the youth properly. With proper strong moral compass and values you shouldn’t be so worried people will just change their colors so fast based off the actions of others. That just means our education system isn’t good. People don’t just throw off their upbringing because of some bad kids behaviour, unless, they hang out with them….or don’t like their own lifestyle in the first place
Look how many rabbinical company men are coming out of the woodwork. Some try to obfuscate their toadyism (re: “the poor burger joint and the poor children hanging out there”), while others have no qualms about shilling for the Farfrumters (re: “to bash holy rabbis” and “Rabbi’s [sic] are our spiritual leaders and when they see a danger the right thing to do is respect them.”
Actually I just think people should think for themselves and come to their own conclusions, but I do see both sides actually to be honest
All you freethinkers should think carefully before commenting and remember the mishna;
�”מ�’�-�” תלמי�” �–כם, אפיקורוסUncle Ben I hear you but everybody is entitled to their own opinion but the fascism and threats. Ok thanks
Look at what both pirkei avos and the shaarei teshuva of rabbanu yona says about people who disparage talmidei chachamim. The gemara says straight out there’s no cure to his wound. Unfortunately people play with this fire online constantly but just remember it’s all being recorded. It’s not worth your Anonymous few minutes of fame to put them down
Uncle Ben. Threats and more threats.
Always threats.Pirkei avos is mishna, literally the most accepted and widely learned Torah there is. You’ll find threats throughout the whole thing. Guess what Judaism is not a feel-good religion that caters to people’s feelings and emotions. It’s the exact opposite. It’s instructions from your Creator and consequences for disobedience. It really doesn’t matter if you like it or not eventually you’re going back home
Rebemes,
Do you realize how ignorant the “Argument of Authority” makes you look?I definitely agree with what your saying
But let’s diffretiate “threats” with common sense and wise council, and consenquences of bad choicesThere’s a huge difference.
Threats generally are used for control.
Consequences and warnings of consenquences are used to teach and help people learn and navigate the world
One is for cult/fear/indoctrination
And the other is for council/warning/and helpful guidance, sometimes neccisary warning.
One is love. One is control.
These are very different spectrums of reality
If you don’t grasp these principles properly, people can use these powerful tools to create a socioty that becomes a straightjacket of extremism, and dramatic fear mongering that is not only not helpful but also not biblicalI don’t know enough about the situation and yhe extent or the iseue being raised, and so luckily it’s not my job to mix in.
What can be said is that there is a lot at stake and the decision to publicize such a letter is obviously a heavily weighed one. The individual’s choice of source of income is one aspect, but that obviously does not overweigh the importance of keeping a town kosher.
Again there are those people that automatically will run to bash anything a rabbi does. You really think these two people woke up and said you know what I’m going to go ruin that Jews business today, they have a majority backing of their community that doesn’t want these type of environments prevalent. Did you just discover what Lakewood is? This is what they want and it would not work in Teaneck or the five towns. But over there they’re much more spiritually sensitive and it’s important to show respect
Nevuah; I didn’t write any threats or fascism. I was just referring to the Mishna/Gemara in Sanhedrin 10:1 where it says that an apikoros doesn’t have a chelek in olam haba. One of the definitions of an apikoros in the gemara is one who shames or derides a Talmid Chochom.
For the life of me I find it difficult to understand why agnostics persist in viewing and commenting on a site catering to frum Jews. I don’t visit agnostic sites and bother them with Torah true views.Uncle Ben understood. But you said “everybody should think carefully before xyz”
That’s a threat.
Can we please call a spade a spade..thanksUncle Ben, questioning and/or disagreeing is not shaming or disparagement.
This topic went way off the rails. I’m not surprised cuz so is the case in most of these topics. Addressing the actual comment posed, I think all of you who disagree with the robonnim don’t value daas torah, and before you lose it let me explain. The mere idea of posing a question on a psak of daas torah is in it of itself disagreeing with the idea of daas torah. Dass torah in essence means that we trust the output of daas torah over our own opinions, because it’s daas torah, so by stating your opinion and thinking that your opinion is the final one, you disagree with the idea of daas torah.
One could state his opinion freely and i admire that, but don’t sell me that you accept daas torah, who are you fooling.
Another could say, “well i don’t agree those rabanim have daas torah”. Ok, then what is? define daas torah. Actualy, do you have daas torah to determine the right candidates?
This discussion makes me laugh lolAshergg,
I totally agree with your premise however I think the people who are arguing understand “daas Torah” as if I have a shaylah what to do I ask daas Torah and they decide for me, however over here I didn’t have a shaylah so therefore I don’t have to “listen” to daas Torah
Just my understanding
Ashregg
If I told you something you disagree with and you fallow it because i have some “authority” erm that will lead to resentment honestly because I feel I have no choice even tho I possibly disagree with it.
Even tho I understand why we must fallow without questioning, obviously cuz clearly that’s the ultimate virtue disagreeing with authority doesn’t mean you disrespect them just means you don’t see eye to eye.
I think people constantly take difference of oppinon as an “affront” or disrespect but that’s not the base intention. It’s just….I see your viewpoint, but I think, my viewpoint makes more sense.
I don’t want to get in going against “daas Torah” but in any other scenario, if someone gave us a final verdict and we see things from a much different perspective, would you call that disrespecting authority or would you call that….simply having a different opinion and doing what you feel makes the most sense.
I think anytime you give up your free will to an authority figure and especially if you don’t see eye to eye with that authority figure. your chaining your life to something that isn’t in alignment with your own virtue.
Whoa responsibility is it to choose? Yours or someone’s else’s. Yours.
In the same breadth I think, are you saying humans do not err?
And what if that human errs will you still follow them?asher, we discussed DT before here. People make their own mind sometimes …
R Zeirah carried R Yochanan on his hands over a puddle. R Yochanan got upset – so you value my Torah, but not my daughter?! R Zeirah did not think that Israeli yichus (including R Yochanan!) was good enough for his pure Bavli lineage …
R Zelig Epstein was asked – how come Mir Yeshiva left via USSR despite R Grozdinki’s daas Torah (I think this is the famous one where he said to use visas for older Rabbis). He replied – simple, that was “before Daas Torah”.
So, maybe disparaging a decision maybe a bad approach, but it is legit to ask what is the reasoning. And those in the area might want to simply go and ask about it, and I am sure the Rabonim will explain. Please post the answers here! Of course, there are exception – gemora quotes gezeros that were publicized without reasoning first as they were afraid that it will hinder acceptance. But I think this is an exception, not the rule.
@nevuah authority and daas torah are different. daas torah is a divnine knowlage linked to moshe rabainu, authority is because thay carry a high position.
Regarding human error, i rely that they’re divine knowlage is better then mine, they could still make errors, but chances are i make much more.
@always ask etc I’m not sure what the story of r zeirah has to do with daas torah. r zelig epstien could define daas torah, you can’t. i was not attacking those who try to understand, that’s essentailly what i do every time i learn gemara. I was reffering to those who come in with strong verdict and pose as they value daas torah. same goes to coffee addict.Honestly I see both sides, they both have merit, on one hand this world has gotten so extreme in the teenage scene I think there’s merit to say that it’s become unacceptable,
On the other hand we preach lashon hara all day, so publicly bashing a store is technically hypocritical and the whole thing sounds like a cliquey us versus them, secret board room meeting where 2 people decided, with bad faith to get back at someone.
The intent feels cliquey and self serving.
I’ve been in plenty of situations where people would put their heads together and ignore me, even tho they barely knew me which, was extremely cruel and immature, so that’s what this feels like.Ashregg, first of all I thought nevuah is obselete so how can you say daas Torah is Devine knowledge, second those people are still human and can err. Only God doesn’t err. So are you placing them as the Same level as God.
Also how Is daas Torah different then authority, they are autheoritivly telling you their psak and you use them as an authority figure. Not sure how you mean it’s different their inherinitly the same thing.
Nobody has monopoly on the truth.
If someone’s human they can err. If they look like you they can err just like you. Cuz they are you just with different beliefs?asher> I’m not sure what the story of r zeirah has to do with daas torah.
R Yochanan thought that his daughter is a great shidduch to his student. The student disagreed, despite showing his tremendous kavod to his teacher’s Torah.
> I was reffering to those who come in with strong verdict and pose as they value daas torah
I agree here – people often misunderstand “daas Torah” for selecting “daas” that fits their own view and using that “daas” to convince others. The moment though Daas Torah says something different … see, for example, R Bender’s letter about e-scooters – if he has to publish that, it means that his students are not listening … (and it is good to know that he is saying that, because my first reaction when I see students behaving stupidly – their teachers are at fault …)
The escooters is good sense everything else is opinion
@nevuah torah is divine knowladge, error is on the human end. Now, if a human consumes lot’s of torah, understands it well, and operates in alignment with the torah, i could assume they have a better understanding in the divine knowlage.
“they are autheoritivly telling you their psak” I’m not sure what you mean. I listen not because of they’re position of authority, rather they’re understanding in the torah.Again that is true. But your using them as an authority on Torah. It’s all authority.
Also ashregg Theres alot of interpetations of the Torah, by virtue of all the arguments in the talmud so people are very capable of giving over information that isn’t in alignment with the heart of the message. And therfore human error can very easily be part of the system, especially when the message can be more fear based then what the original content implied. But whatever you want to believe
nevuah what the problem with that kinda auhtority?
People, get a life
Because blind faith is not how humans were created to operate. We are supposed to think critically about things we are told. Because if that same authority figure tells you to do something wrong you should be using your free will as discernment so you don’t end up doing something you shouldn’t. I’m not saying rabbanim intend for that, and I can respect our respect for them. And honestly putting rabbanim aside because that’s a whole different topic. I think as sovereign individuals we shouldn’t be moving towards tyranny in any of our dealings with life as we are the sole bearer of our choices and also the sole bearer of the consequences of said choices, you can’t delegate your free will to someone else and then think we are exempt from the consenquences of your own choices. We can listen to sense and then decipher and do what is right.
I’m just curious do you follow anything anyone else says blindly in any other context? No, I don’t think so.You by nature have multiple opinions about things just by nature of existing and your going to act on what you feel is the best choice to make. Delegating those choices to an outside source doesn’t exempt you from the reality of your choices. Sorry
At the same time, even if you don’t listen you learn by virtue of life what is in the best interest for yourself and others. It’s not that hard.
I think when we give our authority away, we can do great evil and in that same framework we end up being immoral and lose our conscience because we exempt ourselves from critical thought.
I don’t think this ever translates good in any scanario. It translates to dogmatic sheeple speak where people lose touch with reality.
There’s so many examples of this, for example, feminists: all they do is parrot talking points and sheeple speak and then mumble off a bunch of fake science cuz thats what they are force fed for years. People can use all different types of “authority” to do this, including “science” “phsycology” the second you parrot authority because of “authority” and stop critically thinking you become disconnected from the root and inherint unrighteousness of specific choices. Feminists for example never looked at reality to see if what they believe is true. They just parrot what they are told.
That’s not truth that’s delusional thinking.
There’s multitudes of these kinds of examples on all different plains of existence
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