The Yeshiva World

April 12, 2015 5:55 am at 5:55 am #1073417

Participant

Disclaimer:

Please do not impute any negativity into my tone. The nature of the written word is such that in a debate the tone may seem strident even when it is not.

Joseph:

Your accusation that the source of the quote I posted is R’ Kasher is correct – I explicitly wrote in my post “R’ Menachem Kasher wrote” and “He also writes”.

So after reading your first response to me, I decided to look into the issue and see if you were correct. Regarding the 1937 meeting (which I did not mention in my post), I found the original article which you accuse R’ Kasher of forging and doctoring. Indeed you are correct that R’ Kasher left out R’ Wasserman, R’ Kotler, and R’ Rottenberg; however it cannot be called “forging” or “doctoring” considering that he used an ellipsis to note that he was leaving something out. (I am not condoning what he did – I think it gives a false impression of the facts – but it is not quite the same thing as forging or doctoring a document. On that note, technically you actually did forge/doctor it since you wrote that those voting against the medina held that “it would be “Kefirah b’emunas bias hamoshiach…”” when in fact what it says in the article is “???? ????? ?????? ???? ?????”. The article can be seen at http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=12085&st=&pgnum=10 particularly the left column starting from the third paragraph.

Getting back to the point of my original post, we can see clearly from the original article that it was not simply “all the gedolim were against the founding of a state”. The article describes how the meeting to discuss this issue lasted seven hours and was stormy. Already we see that the opinion of the Rabbis was hardly monolithic. After delineating the two sides, the article says “????? ????? ??”.

Regarding the point about the Chofetz Chaim, let us, for the sake of argument, grant that R’ Kasher was a complete fraud. That doesn’t preclude his point from being true. So do you know of anywhere in the Chofetz Chaim’s writings where the three oaths are discussed? If you do, I will happily retract this point. Once we’re discussing the Chofetz Chaim, here is a quote from Kisvei R’ Chaim Eliezer Bichovski which I have quoted here previously:

??? ?? ??? ???? ??’ ???? ????? ???? ???? ????? ????? ???”? ???? ?????? ???? ?? ??? ?????? ???”? ?????? ?? ??? ?? ????? ?????? ???? ????? ???? ?’ ????? ???? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ????? ?? ????? ???? ?????? ????? ????? ??”? ??????? ??? ??? ?? ?’ ????? ??? ?????? ???? ?? ?? ?? ???????? ????? ?”? ?? ????? ???? ???? ???? ??? ?? ?? ????? ?????? ?????? ?? ?? ?? ???? ??? ??? ??? ?????? ???? ?? ??? ?????? ???? ????? ??? ????? ????? ???? ????? ????? ????? ????? ????? ????? ?? ?????? ???”? ???? ??”?

Regarding the kol korei about aschalta d’geula, I don’t have access to Zvi Weinman’s writings, so the only evidence I have, is you saying that Weinman claims that the original document said “kibutz galiyos” in place of “aschalta d’geula”. So let’s say I grant that you are correct on this. You agree, though, that these rabbis signed a kol korei which declared the State of Israel to be the ?????? ???????? ?? ????? ?????. The Yeshuos Malko (Yoreh Deiah 66) wrote:

???? ??? ???? ???? ????? ?? ?????? ??? ?????? ??????

So while R’ Kasher may have been dishonest, the actual kol korei still says a lot.

Regarding R’ Yehuda Herzl Henken, I’m not sure why his halachic positions would affect whether he is trustworthy to quote his grandfather’s position. But regarding his halachic positions themselves, feel free to cogently dispute the teshuva about dancing:

http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=20021&st=&pgnum=119