Avram
You finnaly answered my question “Once the head emerges, the infant can breathe on his/her own, whereas before that time, if the mother died, the infant most likely would too.” So the difference between the two in your opinion is that it’s life is dependent on the mother. OR put another way it is not fully alive.
Is that fair?
“Well, I’ll let you debate that with Sam2, because he does not hold that way. If I wanted to chop off one of my arms because I preferred having one instead of two, according to him I’m stupid but doing nothing immoral (i.e., against halacha).”
I would yield to Sam2, he clearly know more than I. But I was always under the impression that purposly being chovel oneself for no reason is against Halacha . I dont see where Sam2 said any different, all I see is that it is not immoral. but may still be against halacha (As to whether the 2 are synonyms, is the discussion on another thread).
“Do the allowing opinions state explicity that the fetus is not a rodef in this case?”
I would have to check inside, I’m pretty sure some do.
” It would seem to me that it could be,”
Thats a big chiddush to me, and clearly not a simple understanding of rodef.
As far as the reasons that havent convinced you.
a. You only addressed one. There is still this: A pregnant woman who is chayiv misah is killed with her fetus inside her. We dont wait till she gives birth. not even a day. If the fetus is a person why is it being killed for its mother’s aveira?
b. Reegarding your response to finacial payment. That is a technical halacha in Retzicha and misas beis din. WE only kill for a vadei issur, since we dont know if the living baby is a nefel or not we cant kill for its murder r”l.
This is in no way similar to abortion for which the penalty is financial. There is no finacial penalty for killing a 1 day old infant much as there isnt for killing a 20 year old person. To sum up:
Abortion – punishement is its monetary value
Infant < 30 days – no punishment (because we cant kill for safek)
> 30 days – misah
Clearly a fetus is in a sepearte category than a baby.
“Our reasoning is quite different, but the conclusions perhaps not so much. “
agreed.
“an we agree that the secular pro-choice “Abortion on Demand!” position is immoral?”
This feeds back to the discussion regarding does halacha equal morality. Of which i am not sure yet.
What I do know is that the idea that a fetus does not equal a baby is not immoral, and in fact compatible with Halacha.
As to where that fact leads you, may be another story.