Rabbi, Joseph took the words straight out of my mouth, or maybe said it even better than i could. Thank’s again Joseph.
I have nothing to add to your comments, except the following: I’ve said this before, but it bears repeating. The crux of the issue, as I see it, is not history or even current events. It is the fact that we don’t rely on our small minds whn it comes to summing up how to perceive these things, but rather on our Torah leaders who view them through their holy eyes. Our leaders’ perspective on these weighty issues is quite clear to the hamon am, and they have never come out in public to change them. (Even if you will bring me “proofs of rebbes who participate, the proof is in the pudding, as you say, since none of their constituents ascribe to the “zioninst” philosophy) So as far as we are concerned, at the end of the day, there is nothing left to debate on this subject.
Now since you and I (and the majority of chareidim, I may add) differ on the role our leaders thinking should have on our personal perspectives, there is no way we can ever come to an agreement on the Zionist issue.
Poshut, see above Joseph’s post for an answer to your comment.