yichusdik:
“The people who attacked him don’t have conversations without guidance from their manhigim. They determine where to shop, where to daven, what side of the street to walk on based on the guidance of their manhigim.”
“Shtikoh Kehodo’oh.”
There are, today, hundreds of thousands of Jews who are mechallel Shabbos on a weekly basis. Does the fact that you have not gotten up and condemned such actions mean that you support them?
Please realize that the Gedolim are very busy people (especially now that Lapid/Bennet are trying to outlaw learning in yeshiva), and they do not have the time to condemn everything that is wrong in this world, especially when they have already made it clear countless times that they are opposed to this exact behavior. You cannot reasonably expect them to take time out of their schedule to condemn a bunch of thugs who are widely regarded as crazy, and who will not listen to anybody in any case.
“If there’s nothing the Rabbis can do, in a community so directed, so restricted, so regimented, then the system is broken.”
Oh, please. Just because a few crazy extremists do dumb things does not in any way mean that the entire Chareidi “system is broken” any more than one crazy extremist killing Rabin means the entire Mizrachi “system is broken”.
“If the Manhigim are truly telling people to restrain themselves, and they are not being listened to, isn’t there something terribly wrong with the society that needs to be addressed?”
Yes, there is. It’s that people think that they know better than the Gedolei HaDor. But if you think that Meah Shearim is the only place where such a phenomena exists, you’re hiding under a rock.
“Its kind of curious, though, that the “pritzusdike women” get hounded out of the neighborhood, and, as you say, are “outcasts”, but I’ve never read about one of these (not so young) mazikim being turned out of their home and their neighborhood for such actions. Outcasts? Not so much.”
Who do you think it is hounding these “pritzusdike women”? R’ Shteinman? It’s the same guys who were just hounding this soldier – its not too surprising that they don’t kick themselves out.
And yes, they are not accepted by the general community.
jewishfeminist02:
“we must conclude that either a) the rabbonim approved of the attack, or b) the Chareidim aren’t really so insistent on daas Torah as they claim to be.”
You are assuming that everybody under the umbrella term “Chareidi” think and act as one monolithic group. Take that stereotyping out, and your logic falls to pieces. Most Chareidim do indeed listen to daas Torah – but to claim that every last person wearing a black hat will never do anything unless directed to do so by a Rov is simply ridiculous.
yichusdik:
“When someone tells me that its the aimless, the young, those who won’t listen to guidance who perpetrate this, I first ask, are you sure? How are you sure?”
There are no Gedolim advocating or in any way tolerating violence. These people are being violent. Ergo, they are not listening to the Gedolim.
“In this particular community, however, the guidance is defined, strict, and comprehensive. It includes EVERYONE, even the easy to blame youth. As I wrote above, this particular community has no problem evicting those who don’t comply with their standards of tzniyus. Why, if the posters above are right, and it is aimless youth who are involved, why are they not similarly removed from the community? I can only surmise that such actions as were perpetrated on this chayal are condoned, if not encouraged, by those who are listened to in this particular community.”
You seem to think Meah Shearim is some kind of Mafia-controlled neighborhood where nothing happens without the bosses permission, and those who break the bosses’ rules are “taken care of”. News flash – that simply isn’t true. Chareidim in general do listen to their Rabbonim, but the Rabbonim are not Mafia-style bosses with absolute control of everything anybody does.
jbaldy22:
Nobody is saying that assaulting Israeli soldiers is a justified course of action. Kindly do not put words in our collective mouths. We just think that blaming the actions of a few crazies on Chareidi society in general and its “Manhigim” in particular is ridiculous.
“What I actually said was that if someone in their community did something like this I don’t understand why its not their responsibility to say that such sinah is wrong and condemn it.”
I think Health’s previous comparison actually works rather nicely for this point too: do you not understand why the MO “Manhigim” don’t get up and condemn the events that occurred in YU? Or do you see how they can simply assume that everybody recognizes that such a thing is wrong without having to be told about it?
yichusdik:
“Why is it ok to act against pritzus but not against violence?”
Pritzus is a much more widespread problem than violence. If incidents of pritzus were also so rare as to be newsworthy, we would indeed treat them the same way.
“one of the Rabbis in the shchuna came out publicly in favor of the violence. YWN reported it yesterday.”
Yeah, Neturei Karta. You’re not seriously suggesting that they speak for all of Chareidi Jewry, are you?