A Minyan of Only 10

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  • #600180

    With a minyan of only 10 men, all 9 must respond to every Amen, otherwise it is a bracha l’vatala by the shliach tzibbur.

    #821231
    Sam2
    Participant

    Not quite, but it’s a nice thing to say to get everyone to answer.

    #821232

    If they don’t all answer, you are lacking a minyan.

    #821233
    Chacham
    Participant

    lav-davka

    The Mishna Berura brings from the Shulchan Shlomo an eitza that the shliach tzibbur should make a tnai that if the tzibbur does not answer chazaras hashatz should just be a nedava

    #821234

    In that case all 10 people lost out davening with a minyan, since there was no minyan answering.

    #821235
    Sam2
    Participant

    YD: Once again, not quite true. In fact, a sleeping person can count as one of the 10 for a Minyan. You should have 9 (10 actually) answering at all times but sometimes this just doesn’t work. And the Lashon of the Poskim is “Karov Livachos Levatalos”, not quite actually Brachos Levatalos.

    #821236
    Chacham
    Participant

    also bshaas hadchak if one person is in middle of amidah we are still metzref him to begin chazaras hashatz. And some poskim say you can include a sleeping person in that room for a tenth listener.

    The real question is, in a minyan of only ten and there is a kohen who cannot duchen and regularly he will be required to wallk out, does he walk out over here?

    #821237
    Obaminator
    Member

    So what’s the bottom line? 9 sleepers and one Sha”tz is a kosher minyan?

    And if it is less than 9 answering, is it still considered to be a minyan?

    #821238
    Chacham
    Participant

    No you definitely need 6 people answering for it to be chazaras hashatz

    #821239
    Mayan_Dvash
    Participant

    a sleeping person? What is your source?

    #821240
    Sam2
    Participant

    I believe it’s a T’shuvah in the Tzitz Eliezer quoting I believe a Pri Megadim.

    (I know the Tzitz Eliezer mentions it. I do not recall if his Maskanah is that he holds like it. Either he didn’t or I read the T’shuvah and was upset by the fact that he didn’t because the M”B calls it Korov Lebrachos Levatalos. But there are definite legitimate sources for it.)

    #821241
    shein
    Member

    If the above shittas is correct that you don’t need all 9 answering, then why do you need 6 davening with the minyan + 4 not davening but answering with the minyan? You should be able to have a minyan of only 6 people.

    #821242
    Sam2
    Participant

    Shein: A Minyan is 10 people. Period. Then comes the issue of what those 10 have to be doing precisely towards the Minyan. But if there are not 10 people physically there then you don’t have anything to start the conversation with.

    #821243
    shein
    Member

    That’s my point, Sam. I’m asking exactly that – then why the other way I compared it to is okay.

    #821244
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Can a mute person (not a deaf mute) be included in a minyan

    #821245
    Sam2
    Participant

    Coffee addict: Yes.

    The whole Sugya is complicated and has several different very technical opinions. For most things we seem to hold that 6 people actually doing whatever we need a Minyan for is necessary for a Minyan. For others (Kriyas Hatorah on Simchas Torah is a very good example) we seem to hold you might only need 1.

    #821246
    minyan gal
    Member

    And what happens if “nature” calls during the davening and one of the 10 needs to leave for a few minutes? Does the entire minyan take an intermission? This is one reason that I have often heard that the 11th person in the minyan is very important.

    #821247
    bein_hasdorim
    Participant

    MG; Also the twelfth person if two ppl need to go.

    #821248

    during intestinal flu epidemics (yes health i know there is really no such thing as intestinal flu) you need 15-20 to be on the safe side.

    #821249
    bezalel
    Participant

    Does the entire minyan take an intermission?

    It depends when the tenth left. For example if he left during the repitition the chazzan continues with the repitition and the kaddish following it.

    #821250
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Sam2,

    Do you have a mekor?

    This could be the way to answer yd

    #821251

    How many mispallelim must, minimally, be up to the Amida for the minyan to start shemone esrei?

    #821252
    Chacham
    Participant

    i think the most bdi eved shitta is 6 people answering.

    #821253
    Sam2
    Participant

    CA: No one says otherwise.

    YD: I would assume we hold 6 by this also. It’s all the same issue, I think. It’s not a real Tefilla B’tzibbur (according to the M”B at least) unless there are 10 though.

    #821254
    shein
    Member

    i think the most bdi eved shitta is 6 people answering.

    Which shittas say you need more than 6?

    And are you talking about needing 6 ready to start to shtille S”E together or 6 ready to listen/respond to start the hoieche S”E?

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