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AZ — I think NASI is a great organization and agree with a lot of your points. I am very confused about one aspect — your idea of boys dating earlier. I understand your opinion, but you keep saying comments like “the 70 R”Y agree” or even stronger language (“take responsibility” “advise this course of action”). That is definitely NOT accurate. There may be some of the R”Y who agree that boys should date younger, but nothing in the letter says anything like that. The letter basically says close in age shidduchim should be promoted, and shadchanim should give priority to older GIRLS. I happen to know first hand that at least 2 of the R”Y on the list strongly do NOT agree that boys should be dating younger and feel that girls should be getting married slightly older instead. I’m not sure that having girls wait is something that is practical, as parents are so nervous about the crisis they may not agree, but that doesn’t mean the R”Y agree with the reverse.
AZ: “Unfortanetly for you the people advising in the situaton feel that if boys wold beging dating closer to 22 than 23 there would be no harm done to the marriages”
“The R”Y advising this course of action are more than ready to “take responsibility” for your concerns”
Why am I not reassured that some anonymous R”Ys “feel” there is no harm and “take responsibility”
AZ: The bottom line is that it seems our main disagreement is very limited. We both agree that 21 and 22 year old boys who are ready should be free to go out, and presumably you agree that a 22 or 23 year old who is not ready should be allowed to wait. The difference is that according to you this would be a radical departure from the current procedure and according to me is the unchanged reality.
Or if you prefer: you see an ominous Orwellian Big Brother forcing hundreds of 22 year old bochurim who are dieing to begin shidduchim to wait for some ominous “collusion” that threatens anyone foolish enough to date before his 23rd birthday. I see a healthy sense of individualism where each person does approximately what he estimates to be appropriate to the level of his maturity.
m in israel: I think you didn’t read my posts correctly. I’ll restate it here one more time. I do not mean to imply that this specific issue was brought to 70 R”Y, because it wasn’t. The NASI Project does not bring all its ideas to a board of 70 R”Y before going forward that would simply be almost imposssible and would prevent any progress from being made. However, it doesn’t do anything without direct guidance from the R”Y who run the project.
Hello99: I wholeheartidly agree with your statement “I see a healthy sense of individualism where each person does approximately what he estimates to be appropriate to the level of his maturity.”
we simply disagree as to whether that is taking place presently now or not.
as for you reassurance level… i can’t help that. Feel free to contact the NASI project directly if you want more specific info. One thing i will say is that you seem way to comfortable with the unchanged reality… THAT is something I (and much more importantly) the people on the ground who are working to help the girls are NOT comfortable with the unchanged reality.
To qoute Einstein: the definition of insanity is to do the same thing again and again and expect different results.
What you refer to as the “unchanged reality” has played a big part in creating the disastrous sistuation we presently find ourselves in. Why you are so convinced that the reality has to be, shouldn’t change, and is the best interest of the parties, is slightly beyond me and frankly many many R”Y disagree.
and one additonal point, I wouldn’t exactly call boys returning from EY 6 months earlier on average and/or begining the dating process closer to 22 than to 23 a “radical change”. It’s just really not radical at all.
So what AZ’s trying to say is that the 70 can be quoted specifically for what is in that kol koreih, they have good feelings about NASI in general, but no one other than whoever’s on the actual rabbinic advisory board can be quoted as endorsing everything NASI or its spokespeople propose?
AZ: you said “I wholeheartidly agree with your statement “I see a healthy sense of individualism” and you also said “I am NOT comfortable with the unchanged reality.”
So you mean to say you agree the current situation is one where each individual does what is best for his level of maturity, and you strenuously oppose that??? Do you think young men should date when they are not ready for marriage???
I said the present reality is NOT in the best interest of the boys individuality.
Case in point being the 400 boys who “happen” to begin dating all on the same day in the winter, and the 400 boys who “happen” to begin dating all on the same day in the summer.
hmmm that sounds like a lot of individuality to me..
Our disagreement is simply whether the present reality is enabling or disabling of the boys individuality. In addition, I don’t subscribe to the notion that the way it is presently means it should/is supposed to be/ or is best for the boys-because it isn’t.
IM available to help!!
AZ: can you please reconcile your statement “I wholeheartidly agree with your statement “I see a healthy sense of individualism” with “I said the present reality is NOT in the best interest of the boys individuality”
As I explained previously, the reality of Lakewood requires rounding off to the nearest half-year. However, now boys go to LKWD at whatever age they are ready; some at 21 and some at 24. You would have everyone “encouraged” (not forced) to enter dating before they feel ready.
IUB: Great! But what do you want to help with, matching people or birthdays???
AZ: can you please reconcile your statement “I wholeheartidly agree with your statement “I see a healthy sense of individualism” with “I said the present reality is NOT in the best interest of the boys individuality”
If you read his next sentence, he wrote, “we simply disagree as to whether that is taking place presently now or not.”
Since your statement was, “I see a healthy sense of individualism”, was referring to the way you see the present reality, it “takeh” doesn’t make sense to agree with it and then say that it’s not presently occurring, but his intent was pretty clear – he’d like to see boys start dating as soon as they’re ready, (as would you), but he thinks the freezer (and/or arriving in Lakewood when ready to date) is artificially holding back boys who would like to start.
Hello: I wrote: “I see a healthy sense of individualism” IF boys where able to begin dating at the time that is appropirate for each of them individually. Unfortanetly, as you yourself write, that is sadly not the case.
IF and WHEN boys begin returning from EY slightly earlier, then each and every one of them will be able to begin exactly when they are ready to, not a day earlier- that would be a healthy sense of induvidualism, as opposed to what’s taking place presently.
What I fail to understand is why you equate, returning from EY slightly earlier, with being encouraged to date before they are ready. Each and everyone will begin to date only WHEN they are ready. The reality that when that becomes commonplace, many many perhaps most of the boys would begin before they are doing so now, because as you yourself wrote they really are ready before they are able to begin now. What’s wrong with that.
What’s wrong with that.
What’s potentially wrong with that is the boys leaving Eretz Yisroel before they’re ready. The whole idea of having boys marry earlier, even those who are mature enough to handle marriage, is not simple at all. When someone gets married, he takes on financial responsibilities that he did not previously have, and in the vast majority, getting married younger means leaving full-time learning younger.
Whether or not the age/gender discrepancy warrants this sacrifice is only a decision that the gedolei hador could make, and each bochur, with his rebbe, could make.
Encouraging considering slightly older girls to marry does not have this drawback.
but he thinks the freezer is artificially holding back boys who would like to start.
Well, then this disagreement is essentially between an anonymous internet poster and the Roshei HaYeshiva of Beis Medrash Govoha.
DY – This whole convo is talking about guys who learn in EY and then go to Lakewood. What – there are no guys in Shidduchim in America who don’t follow this route?
“When someone gets married, he takes on financial responsibilities that he did not previously have,”
Not in Lakewood -he don’t!
I’m with DaasYochid. Encouraging the boys to come back early means that they’re not going to E”Y because that’s the best place to be learning at this particular time, it means that they’re being just as much a part of a herd as the thaw date at BMG as you describe.
IF, and note I capitalized if, IF boys do go to learn in E”Y it needs to be part of the organic process of their Torah growth. No other cheshbonos. There has already been enough damage done to our kids by arbitrary pigeonholing rather than a concerted chanoch l’naar approach.
shlishi –
but he thinks the freezer is artificially holding back boys who would like to start.
Well, then this disagreement is essentially between an anonymous internet poster and the Roshei HaYeshiva of Beis Medrash Govoha.
It’s not too hard to figure out who AZ is. Besides, his point is not to abolish the freezer, it’s that bochurim should come back from E.Y. earlier, so that they’re out of the freezer earlier. The point of the freezer, as I understand it, is that the bochurim settle in to a good learning routine before they start going out, not that they should go out later.
Health –
DY – This whole convo is talking about guys who learn in EY and then go to Lakewood. What – there are no guys in Shidduchim in America who don’t follow this route?
Sure, there are some. That doesn’t change the fact that many (probably a large majority) do go to Lakewood.
“When someone gets married, he takes on financial responsibilities that he did not previously have,”
Not in Lakewood – he don’t!
Sure he does. Whether his shver supports doesn’t change the kesuba.
For the purpose of this conversation, my point is that despite the stereotype, the vast majority do eventually leave full time learning. At what age that takes place is usually directlt related to the age someone gets married.
DY – Despite what is written in the Kesubah, almost noone in Kollel has any financial responsibilities.
Anyway it’s not just the Shver, they say he has a company of 5 & the gov. working for him. The guy’s parents (2), the in-laws (4), and of course the Vibel (5), plus all the Gov. programs!
D”Y: The R”Y directly advising the NASI Project (as well as a bunch of other R”Y) have determined that by and large the majority of the boys stay in EY longer then would be best for their learning. From strictly a shidduch perspective their coming home a few months earlier and thus not artificially putting off their ability to begin dating, would suit each of theirs individual sitatuation.
Btw i have not said anything in terms of aboloshing the freezer. I have simply stated that if boys came back a bit earlier, then instead of them itching to date when the freezer opens they will begin dating when they are ready. (this would likely even enhance their learning). Some would begin the day the freezer opens and some may wait a bit longer. At present -as hello99 pointed out earlier-they essentialy come back ready to date and then they wait.
As for regarding leaving full time learning: It has far more to do with the number of children he has/at what age he has them/what other sources of income etc. Whether he got married at 22.50 or at 23.25 has probably very little to do with how many years he learns in full time kollel after his chassuna.
DY – Despite what is written in the Kesubah, almost noone in Kollel has any financial responsibilities.
Anyway it’s not just the Shver, they say he has a company of 5 & the gov. working for him. The guy’s parents (2), the in-laws (4), and of course the Vibel (5), plus all the Gov. programs!
Do us a favor, and take your anti kollel diatribe to a different thread.
Btw i have not said anything in terms of aboloshing the freezer.
Yes, I pointed that out, in your defense.
As for regarding leaving full time learning: It has far more to do with the number of children he has/at what age he has them/what other sources of income etc. Whether he got married at 22.50 or at 23.25 has probably very little to do with how many years he learns in full time kollel after his chassuna.
It would make a difference of three quarters of a year.
DY: How do you know AZ personally irl?
D”Y: there are far to many other vaiables to determine that it would make a difference of 3/4 of a year. Either way the R”Y advising the NASI Project have encouraged that course of action and thus they are following up on it.
the R”Y advising the NASI Project have encouraged that course of action and thus they are following up on it.
That’s fine, the upside, closing the gap, is obvious. I’m just pointing out that it’s a shikul hada’as. Marrying a slightly older girl doesn’t have this downside (although it may have others).
Are they following up on it by encouraging their talmidim to go to E.Y. earlier? Or by telling them to come back earlier?
AZ & DY: Are you both in Yeshiva together? Or know each other somehow else?
D”Y: The exact course of action will become known when it is implemented.
Shlishi for your curiousity sake i have no idea who DY is..
Shlishi for your curiousity sake i have no idea who DY is..
DaasYochid
Member
According to a friend of his that I spoke with, he uses AZ because he knows everything from A to Z.
They are the initials of a significant person in his life.
DaasYochid
Member
It’s not too hard to figure out who AZ is.
How does DY know AZ signifies an important person in your life. And how does he know who you are?
Shlishi: since you are so curious. He has absolutely no idea what AZ stands for because the suggestion hat it stands for A to Z or a significant person in my life is simply wrong.
Now back to the topic…
DY: How did you conclude AZ stood for someone significant in his life?
Shlishi: If i may….
this is NOT the topic of the thread nor is digging to find someones identify alowed on the CR (not that I care nor do i think he’ll be succesful).
Where are the mods???
Evryone must help with shidduchim!!!!!!!
I’m just asking DY how he came to the conclusion he came to, as incorrect as you claim it to be.
shlishi,
Please drop it. Thanks.
Ofcourse asks “In the eyes of the Torah, is marrying a Jew, even a drastically less religious Jew, or a totally secular Jew, better than staying single, or vice versa? If anyone is aware of any Gedolim’s thoughts on this, please share.”
Given the topic of this thread I presume the question is whether a frum girl should marry a less religious man. I haven’t heard any Gedolim opine on this. However, I once heard that R. Ruderman told a group of bais yaakov girls (including my sister) that the reason Yaakov was punished for hiding Dina was she would have been able to be mashpia on Eisav LiTov.
So, if the frum girl would be able to keep Taharas HaMishpacha and the less frum man would agree that their children should be raised frum it seems to me like it would be ok for the frum girl to marry him. Now, of course, the devil is in the details, and it would have to be an unusual situation to work, however, in theory it might be able to work. Just my $0.02!
That’s a humongous risk for a frum girl to marry a semi-frum man. She is risking her own soul.
Laker – It’s not R’ Ruderman -it’s either a Rashi or a Medrash or something like that. Very few women nowadays are on that Madreiga, most would end up as the man -not so Frum!
Laker – It’s not R’ Ruderman -it’s either a Rashi or a Medrash or something like that.
Yes – Rashi in Chumash brings it. I just looked quickly and couldn’t find it However, I don’t think that Rashi says Mefurash that she would have influenced him. Also, the Rav Ruderman story’s chiddush is that he was telling it to girls 20 years ago to point out to them the Koach they have.
shlishi-
AZ tries to hide behind a cloak on anonymity, you may have noticed that on the NASI website or any of the ads they take out there is no mention of name of any human (aside from the 70 R”Y who signed the letter he doesn’t stop talking about). You’ll see an address where he wants people to send $50 but there is no name associated with the address in the ad.
When I first heard of NASI and tried to take the organization seriously, my first goal was to identify the person behind the curtain. I used 4 different methods, came up with the same name each time and am confident that I know the name of AZ (I don’t know him in real life, just his name and where he lives.)
There were some inconsistencies along the way though. Before he published the names of the 70 R”Y I had just assumed that my R”Y was one of them. He wasn’t there when I went to speak with him so I asked a close talmud if anyone from NASI spoke to the R”Y about signing the letter. The name he gave me was the name I associated with AZ. AZ denies being the one to go around to the R”Y.
For the record my R”Y did not sign the letter and is not one of the two R”Y that AZ knows of that did not sign.
Rabbosai, what are we doing to alleviate?
Make at least one phone call a day!
With children in shidduchim,I know how this feels!
“The letter” that keeps getting mentioned has signatures of R”Y who encourage closer in age shidduchim, nothing more, nothing less. My R” Y is signed onto that letter. It is all he signed on to. anything else espoused by Nasi and claims to be endorsed by the signers of the letter is not endorsed by my R”Y and in fact, each signatory to the letter would have to be asked if they agree. Be that as it may, I am aware of NO R’Y who has advocated bachurim en masse getting married earlier as a solution to anything. Bachurim, hopefully start to date when they are mature enough to handle the process, not sooner, no matter what their age or how many available bachurim are needed to match up with available girls.
Over shabbos, I overheard this very conversation between several married women (my wife among them) and an older single girl (35+). Someone made the comment that there are more girls than boys, this single quickly corrected that statement to, there are many more “good girls” than there are “good boys”. I didnt catch the specifics of this distinction, but the way my wife understood it is that this girl is not lacking for dates (nor was she), even at the age of 35. The girls feel that there are so many more “good girls” than available “good boys” (however they define the term).
Dr. Pepper,
On the informational letter that was sent to EVERY mother of a single boy in Lakewood there was the name of the director of the NASI Project. I don’t remeber if the most recent mailing has a email address or not, in the past i think it had the email address as well as a cell phone number.
This mailing has been sent out (i think) 4 times already. They send it out shortly before the opening of the freezer.
THAT is hardly hiding behind any cloak of anyonymity.
You frequently mention a website that was put up and to the best of my knowledge had very very little informion other than being a copy of one of their ads. (and i don’t even think it’s active anymore.) You also frequently mention a ad they ran encouraging families with children in shiddcuhim to contribute $50 to help them encourage more close in age shidduchim. That ad was run with the encouragement of the R”Y advising the project. It wasn’t so succesful from a fundraising standpoint so it was discontinued after a a few tries. That was a few years ago.
Dr. P. why not ask Pac what he dug up because he contacted the project after receiving info from this forum on how to contact them. He was also interested in knowing who the specific R”Y advising them are and why it’s not being made public in the YW CR
Either way you are free to have your feelings on the issues and the project. They will continue to do their thing following the guidance of the R”Y advising them and hopefully they will have continued hatzlacha.
apushatayid: Doing part-time volunteer shadchanus I heard the opposite: That there are many good guys and many girls but there are more good guys than girls. (Though there may be more girls overall.)
AZ-
I’m not the mother of a single boy in Lakewood and I didn’t get the letter, therefore I don’t know what it says. I was going by the ads I saw in the Yaated and the text from the website which was there until last week but has since disappeared. The lack of any human being mentioned in the ads or website is what I based my statement on.
As apushatayid mentioned
“The letter” that keeps getting mentioned has signatures of R”Y who encourage closer in age shidduchim, nothing more, nothing less.
Nothing in the letter says anything about sending $50 to a mystery address. In my opinion, asking people to send $50 to an address without a name is hiding behind a cloak of anonymity. I wouldn’t consider it
discontinued after a a few tries. That was a few years ago.
when it was still there last week.
I have no interest in contacting Pac – Man, I know how my R”Y feels about the project and that’s all I that matters to me.
For all those who weren’t able to see the nasiproject.com website before it went down over the weekend- here is the text of what was there (sorry but I didn’t save the links):
Welcome
The NASI Project
760 Close In Age Shidduchim and Counting.
In under 2 years we have B”H accomplished much.
With more help from the community we could accomplish much more.
We ask all families with children in shidduchim to contribute $50 to the NASI Project.
USA:
YSH – NASI
8448 118th Street
Kew Gardens, NY 11415
Canada:
VMM
6887 Wilderton Avenue
Montreal, Quebec H3S2M3
For additional information, please contact us:
The NASI Project IS working. Proven 760x already.
? Help us help YOU ?
CLOSE THE AGE GAP – SOLVE THE CRISIS
The NASI Project is endorsed by Ziknei Roshei Yeshiva Shlita,
and under the direct daily auspices of leading Roshei Yeshiva.
Our overhead is practically zero. The small handful of individuals involved in the project,
are all volunteers. Every penny goes towards facilitating more close in age shidduchim.
Droid. If there are so many more available boys than girls, why has the emphasis and all the hand wringing over the “shidduch crisis” centered around girls? Why have initiatives that have been started all been geared to getting more boys into the dating pool, not less?
All of you might have good points, and hishtadlus is definitely in order, but your attitude is very wrong. You seem not to realize that Hashem runs the show. Can’t he like bring tons of special male baal hatshuvah. Btw, in the chassidic community the problem is just the opposite. Older boys. so how bout pairing them up?
No One Special,
What’s your point? You agree that hishtadlus is in order, so how is anyone’s attitude all wrong? Nobody is denying that the success of the NASI endeavor is up to Him.
The pairing up of Chassidim to livish was mentioned; it won’t work in large numbers because of the cultural differences.
Dr Pepper:
To clarify:
The website was taken down simply because the info was totally outdated (it was supposed to have been taken down months ago) NOT because any info there was incorrect (and they don’t have the people to man the website and thus keep it current.
The info posted was probably from like three years ago and wasn’t updated nor was the website promoted in any which way because the project hasen’t gone the route of websitge to promote the goal of close in age shidducim.
That you don’t have a child in BMG may explain why you didn’t get the mailing, but you certainly can’t insinuate hiding behind any cloak when they reach out to over 1,000 families in shidduchim with contact information. If you would like feel free to contact the NASI Project at [email protected] and i’m sure they’ll send you the exact content of the mailing.
btw: I’m curious, What does your R”Y think of the project in general/in particular?
Does he disagree with the age gap concept? (i assume not becasue you yourself seem to agree with it) what are his issues.
As for the R”Y behind the project, it’s not a secret at all, it’s simply not promoted in public forumes as per the direct request of said R”Y.
Those who need to know are very well aware, (and even those who care enough to know and ask -i.e. Pac- are given the full rundown).
No One Special,
What’s your point? You agree that hishtadlus is in order, so how is anyone’s attitude all wrong? Nobody is denying that the success of the NASI endeavor is up to Him.
The pairing up of Chassidim to livish was mentioned; it won’t work in large numbers because of the cultural differences.
My point wasn’t in trying to say Nasi’s actions are wrong, just that saying that a lot of girls will not get married is bordering with kefirah r’l.
and I mean maybe in small numbers it’ll work, and for others there will be other solutions iy’h. just try your best to make changes, but singles shouldn’t ever despair. Maybe be more realistic, but not despair.
The pairing up of Chassidim to livish was mentioned; it won’t work in large numbers because of the cultural differences.
I disagree. First of all, it already has been happening in large numbers since (at least) the end of the Second World War — with both groups now living in the same areas in large numbers. No, perhaps not a Satmar Chosid with a Ner Yisroel family girl. But there are many Chasidim and Litvish that are not far apart hashkaficly as it is. We can and should encourage more of it. Especially considering it helps both age gap issues — the Chasidim with the excess boys hand-in-hand with the Litvish with the excess girls. Plus, it can work immediately. Including the current crop of older 30 and 35 and 40 and older year olds, that the close in age work by NASI doesn’t really address — as well as the younger generations. This point is not intended to detract from any of the other solutions.
no one special:
“a lot of girls will not get married is bordering with kefirah r’l”
actually it simply stating the reality. We can bury our heads in the sand and pretend it’s not happening but that won’t solve the problem. HE didn’t create the problem, and though – of course – HE is the kol yachol and can solve it miraculously if he so chooses, it would be prudent for us to not sit around and wait for a miracle, instead we should clean up the mess that we have made.
I wholeheartedly agre with Pac re: the girls in their 30’s and up.
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