Am I Smart Enough for Law School?

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  • #609576
    playtime
    Member

    As a newlywed Avreich, I want to go to Law School (with a Bachelors in Talmudic Law).

    I know there are many factors to weigh, but my number 1 question is: Am I smart enough?

    1) What score is considered okay for the LSATs?

    2) How do I know I will get through Law school?

    3) Is there anyway to prepare?

    #984417
    WIY
    Member

    playtime

    If you arent stupid you are smart enough. Success is more dependent on dedication and determination than actual brain power. You also need to have a passion for the field you want to pursue be it Law, Medicine, or garbage collector.

    #984418
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I know there are many factors to weigh, but my number 1 question is: Am I smart enough?

    That is a very important question, and we will help you determine it.

    Would you please do a few tricks for us:

    1. Tell us the funniest joke you know.

    2. Give us some deep insight into the IRS scandal.

    3. Tell us the smartest thing you ever did.

    #984419
    WIY
    Member

    popa_bar_abba

    “Would you please do a few tricks for us:”

    What is he, a pet poodle?!

    #984420
    batseven
    Participant

    How am I supposed to know how smart you are?

    #984421
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    What is he, a pet poodle?!

    Good point. Please verify for us that you are not a pet poodle. I do not think pet poodles can go to law school.

    Although, I think that sometimes seeing eye dogs can go to law school. So if you are a pet poodle, you may consider training as a seeing eye dog.

    #984422
    frumnotyeshivish
    Participant

    Playtime:

    It isn’t that hard to get a law degree. It is very, very difficult to excel in law school.

    If your goal is to get a high paying job out of school, you generally must excel.

    To excel in law school you need to be moderately bright, have a decent memory, be a quick typist, and an excellent writer.

    Typing and writing are the best ways to prepare for law school.

    The LSAT does as good as the school and scholarship it gets you into. No more no less. It can also be a good personal evaluation tool.

    Don’t go to law school to become rich. Go to law school if you think you’ll excel at and/or enjoy being a lawyer.

    #984423

    164

    #984424
    lesschumras
    Participant

    Don’t bother.it can cost over $25k in tuition per year and even if you got into a top tier school there is no guarantee of a job. There are a lot of unemployed law school grads

    #984425
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    25k? Decent schools cost over 50k per year.

    But I heard the top firms pay 160k per year plus bonus. And Washdell Litman pays even more than that.

    #984426
    yytz
    Participant

    Law is not a good field to get into right now. Don’t go if you’re just looking for a good reliable well-paying career. (There are many other fields that do provide that.) But go ahead and go if you decide you really want to be a lawyer.

    To get a sense of how you’d do on the LSAT, get copies of old tests (they sell books full of them), time yourself and see what scores you get. But before you do that, go through a workbook mean to teach you how to improve your LSAT score.

    If you’re smart enough to be a decent lawyer, and you have an entrepreneurial spirit, then you can start your own firm and potentially be successful even if you have such low grades that no one would hire you. I’ve known people who have started their own firms after graduation. But it’s not easy, it’s not common, and it’s not for everyone. It is very common nowadays for smart people with good grades to graduate law school without a job.

    #984427
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    And you haven’t even done any tricks for us yet. How are we supposed to know if you are smart enuf?

    #984428
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    I’m so smart I wouldn’t even *want* to go to law school.

    #984429
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Me too. I’m so good at basketball I don’t even want to be in the NBA.

    #984430
    playtime
    Member

    poppa_bar_abba,

    Me too. I’m so good at basketball I don’t even want to be in the NBA. I think the inverse of that is:

    I’m not so good at posting, so I became PBA

    1. Tell us the funniest joke you know.

    Lawyer. (Law-yher) Not Jester.

    2. Give us some deep insight into the IRS scandal.

    Law. Not Accounting.

    3. Tell us the smartest thing you ever did.

    Went to yeshiva.

    frumnotyeshivish- Typing and writing are the best ways to prepare for law school. Really? Why is that?

    Charles Short- 164 164 is just okay??

    #984431
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    164 is just okay??

    Sometimes I give silly advice, but I will give you good advice. Most people who score a 164 should not go to law school.

    #984432
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Pba – you realize that was more perpendicular than parallel, don’t you?

    Playtime – love those answers. Very lawyer like!

    #984433
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Pba – you realize that was more perpendicular than parallel, don’t you?

    Of course. Parallel lines never meet. Perpendicular lines intersect. I want my points to intersect the discussion, not just to run along side it forever.

    #984434
    playtime
    Member

    poppa_bar_abba

    but I will give you good advice. Most people who score a 164 should not go to law school.

    Really?

    So what range is considered OK, and what range is good, and what range is very good?

    #984436
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Really?

    So what range is considered OK, and what range is good, and what range is very good?

    It isn’t about good and bad; it is about accomplishing what your goals are. Presumably your goal is to get a job which will justify the amount of debt you are taking out, and will make you happy.

    Law schools are having a crisis. Most students even from “good schools” are not getting legal jobs at all, or not getting the jobs they need to justify their decision to go to law school. You should read the blogs and forums related to law school, and you will see what is going on.

    So yes, a 164 is a “good score” and will get you into a “good school”, but good schools are frequently not worth going to anymore.

    #984437
    playtime
    Member

    Everyone is telling me about how bad the job market is etc., but my concern now is, how do I know I can make it through law school?

    #984438
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Almost everyone who begins law school makes it through. Unlike other schools, in law school graduating is easy but it really matters how well you do.

    I don’t think you are focusing on the correct problems here; I think you need to do a lot more research on law school before you consider it.

    #984439
    playtime
    Member

    poppa_bar_abba-

    I don’t think you are focusing on the correct problems here; I think you need to do a lot more research on law school before you consider it.

    Poppa, let me be clearer.

    My Shver is a Lawyer. He is encouraging me to go to Law school: he will pay the tuition, and let me join his firm (very large and reputable firm). Hence, I don’t have the problems that many have. My question is,

    How do I know I can handle the workload?

    And how do I know I can make it through with decent grades?

    #984440
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Ah, that helps a lot.

    If you have a guaranteed job, you don’t need to worry about making decent grades. All you need to do is graduate, which is not difficult. This answer the workload problem also.

    You also don’t need to go to a good school, so don’t need to care what you get on the LSAT.

    Sounds like a good setup.

    #984441
    playtime
    Member

    poppa_bar_abba-

    You also don’t need to go to a good school, so don’t need to care what you get on the LSAT.

    I didn’t expect you to know my shver,

    so let me be clearerer:

    I atleast need to do decently. (not such a good setup)

    #984442
    be good
    Participant

    Second PBA- If you have a pretty much guaranteed job at the end of it, and someone is footing the tuition bill… what’s the question?

    Sounds to me like you’re worried about doing well enough to not disappoint yourself/wife and your shver…

    I guess you will only know if you try…

    #984443
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Ok. Well then.

    As far as which school you need to go to, you should ask your shver for advice on what he thinks are good schools. If he says you should aim for Columbia NYU, then you are in a much different position than if he tells you to aim for CUNY, NYLS.

    As far as how well you will do in law school, you will probably be around the middle of the class. But there is a 25% chance you will be in the bottom quarter, and a 10% chance you will be in the bottom 10%. I am not aware of any method of accurately predicting this. LSAT score is the best predictor, but is not really excellent.

    But, I can give you more advice than that. I just need you to answer a few q’s:

    About how many attorneys are in your FIL’s firm (give me rough number: 10-20? 50-100? 500-1000?)?

    What are the most common 2 or 3 schools that they attorneys went to (look on their website, on each attorney’s bio)?

    What is the starting salary for new attorneys there? (give me a range)

    #984444
    Health
    Participant

    playtime -“Poppa, let me be clearer.

    My Shver is a Lawyer. He is encouraging me to go to Law school: he will pay the tuition, and let me join his firm (very large and reputable firm). Hence, I don’t have the problems that many have.”

    I’m not in the legal field, but I have friends who are. You don’t have the problems of those legal students and/or lawyers above. Ignore what they said. You have a job at the end, not like them.

    You can get a degree from Rutgers with BTL and if you’re in NY some say Fordham.

    “My question is,

    How do I know I can handle the workload?

    And how do I know I can make it through with decent grades?”

    Your real question is can I be lazy and still make decent grades to pass like I’ve done in Yeshiva?

    And the answer is No. You will actually have to buckle down and work. Knowing this – most Yeshiva guys do fine.

    Also, it helps Yeshiva guys to take English courses beforehand either in a college or outside of one.

    #984445
    playtime
    Member

    poppa_bar_abba-

    I just need you to answer a few q’s:

    You mean you want me to do more “tricks”? Okay.

    About how many attorneys are in your FIL’s firm (give me rough number: 10-20? 50-100? 500-1000?)?

    10-20

    What are the most common 2 or 3 schools that they attorneys went to (look on their website, on each attorney’s bio)?

    There are no Bios in the website, but I know there are people there from Fordham, NYU, and University of Pennsylvania.

    What is the starting salary for new attorneys there? (give me a range)

    60k

    Health-

    What type of English courses?

    #984446
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Based on your responses, I think you will be fine aiming for any of Cardozo, Brooklyn, St. Johns, Rutgers, and perhaps a few others. Won’t hurt to go to Fordham.

    In which case, you are totally fine with a 160 or so.

    When it comes to actually choosing schools, and weighing the school against its cost, then consult with FIL.

    #984447
    playtime
    Member

    Thank you rav poppa for the sound advice, I will give the copay to your gabbai.

    *(but in all fairness, the question was how do I know I can make it through law school? especially if I get into a good one)*

    #984448
    Health
    Participant

    playtime -“Health- What type of English courses?”

    Well if you live in Lakewood, go to OCC and take the pre-admission exams. If you place below then they put you in Pre -English, if Not you can start with Eng 101 (usually basic composition). Take at least Eng 1 & 2 (101 & 102). If you feel you need more there are more Eng. courses – higher levels you can take.

    #984449
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I answered that already.

    Graduating law school is easy, almost everyone who gets in finishes.

    As for doing well:

    As far as how well you will do in law school, you will probably be around the middle of the class. But there is a 25% chance you will be in the bottom quarter, and a 10% chance you will be in the bottom 10%. I am not aware of any method of accurately predicting this. LSAT score is the best predictor, but is not really excellent.

    #984450
    heretohelp
    Member

    Based on my observations of you in this comment thread only, I would say don’t go to law school. Your analytical abilities and/or educational background seem to prevent you from figuring out the answer to your question, or what information others might need to answer your question. This sort of reasoning would be basic to doing well in the law school curriculum. I don’t mean to be harsh at all, I’m just trying to give you a realistic answer.

    Moreover, the starting salary you mention doesn’t justify what law school will cost. Now, even if you’re not paying the tuition, and your Shver is offering to pay the tuition, it is still a lot of money that could be better spent elsewhere- perhaps investing in a business, or a property or some other professional training program. Also, in a firm of 10-20, it is possible that other lawyers might be resentful of your shver bringing in his son in law, especially if you just scrape by in law school. And finally, what if you don’t like working with your shver? Where will you be then?

    I’m just trying to be constructive- there are lots of great professions out there. Right now, law is not one of them, even under the circumstances you describe.

    #984451
    playtime
    Member

    Heretohelp-

    Thank you so much for the straightforward answer. Are you a phychologist- if not you seem very perceptive and intuitive. Most of the time, I am able to follow arguments. And sometimes i have to read things twice before I understand them.

    Maybe you could help me out- how I am able to improve my basic reading and comprehension skills. Sometimes people tell me I am smart, and sometimes people tell me I am not. Sometimes I feel I am the smartest one in the room, and other times I feel like the least smart.

    I like your first paragraph. As you write, seeing the succession of my posts in this thread, I lack the basic skills for law.

    I can read a post and think I understand it, but apparently not.

    What do you think?

    #984452
    akuperma
    Participant

    1. You can always study for the LSAT, as anything.

    2. You need a recognized undergraduate degree.

    3. Certain skills (writing, general knowledge) need to be aquired before law school. If you aren’t good at learning stuff, don’t become a lawyer.

    4. If you are good at gemara, you’ll probably be good at learning other systems of law. If you hate gemara, you’ll probably hate studying other systems of law. If your Rosh Yeshiva is begging you to join the most advanced shiur, and is offering you a job as a teacher – that a good sign you’ll make it in law school. If the Rosh Yeshiva is suggesting you need a real job, law may be a poor choice for you.

    5. Are you sure you want to be a lawyer. If you think it is a “ticket” to riches you are mistaken. It requires a serious investment, with a very uncertain return. If the job appeals to you, go for it.

    6. That you think to ask “Am I smart enough to go to law school” suggests you are seriously out of touch with reality. That should be corrected before looking for a job.

    #984453
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    1. You can always study for the LSAT, as anything.

    2. You need a recognized undergraduate degree.

    3. Certain skills (writing, general knowledge) need to be aquired before law school. If you aren’t good at learning stuff, don’t become a lawyer.

    4. If you are good at gemara, you’ll probably be good at learning other systems of law. If you hate gemara, you’ll probably hate studying other systems of law. If your Rosh Yeshiva is begging you to join the most advanced shiur, and is offering you a job as a teacher – that a good sign you’ll make it in law school. If the Rosh Yeshiva is suggesting you need a real job, law may be a poor choice for you.

    5. Are you sure you want to be a lawyer. If you think it is a “ticket” to riches you are mistaken. It requires a serious investment, with a very uncertain return. If the job appeals to you, go for it.

    6. That you think to ask “Am I smart enough to go to law school” suggests you are seriously out of touch with reality. That should be corrected before looking for a job.

    I agree with point 5. I disagree with all the rest.

    #984454
    heretohelp
    Member

    I’m not a psychologist. Just someone on the internet with an opinion, so take it as just that- one person’s opinion.

    As for improving reading comprehension, again, I’m just one guy on the internet, but I think reading quality non-fiction might be helpful. Try reading articles in a magazine like the Economist, or the Wall Street Journal or the New York Times.*

    *I am not making any comment on the spiritual or political implications of reading those publications, just expressing the view that they contain quality writing.

    #984455
    akuperma
    Participant

    to popa_bar_abba: The skill of thinking like a lawyer is basically the same as having a good “gemara kup” (head for gemara). It’s the ability to look at system of rules, and to apply those rules to facts. That probably can’t be taught, at least easily (and goes well beyond learning the rules, which is what law schools teach).

    The knowledge of English language and substantive academic skills are all acquired by effort and hard work. Even if there is such a thing as an intelligence test, the LSAT isn’t one — it’s a test on the basic skills need for law school and as such, can be studied for.

    #984456
    playtime
    Member

    heretohelp-

    Try reading articles in a magazine like the Economist, or the Wall Street Journal or the New York Times.

    What sections of those newspapers do you recommend?

    #984458
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I think the skills used by lawyers are very different than those used in yeshiva. In yeshiva, there is also a large element of understanding lomdus which is not relevant for law, and of reading and understanding gemara and rishonim which has no corollary in law where the stuff is written in english and in a way intended to be clear and concise.

    Also, I do not believe the LSAT can be studied in the way you suggest. I do think it is an intelligence test.

    #984459
    benignuman
    Participant

    The LSAT is an intelligence test that can be beat. Meaning practice and learning a methodology to answering the various types of questions can vastly improve on one’s “natural” score.

    Regarding yeshiva training and law school, I think both akuperma and PBA are right. Many of the skills needed in Gemara are not needed in law school. However the ability to read very carefully and be medayek is quite useful (even more so in the actual practice of law)as is the ability halt kup with a cheshbon and the ability to reason by analogy. Furthermore, one’s ability in discerning and explaining lomdus can go the extra mile in impressing a Professor on an exam.

    But probably the most important thing you can do before goin to law school is take a writing class and typing class (or use books/programs and teach yourself). Most law school grades are based entirely on your exams in which you will be trying to tackle as many points as possible within a strict time restraints. The Professor needs to understand what you mean and understand it easily (they are grading lots of legnthy exams and are not going take the time to read what you wrote twice).

    #984460
    akuperma
    Participant

    The standardized tests (such as the SAT and the LSAT) have nothing to do with “intelligence” other than that the person taking the test has to have enough intelligence to realize that it is a test on aquired skills. Of course, those who believe it is an intelligence test, will fail — and tghose who know to study for it, will succeed.

    #984461
    frumnotyeshivish
    Participant

    Akuperma, your gross generalizations about those who will succeed and fail are untrue.

    The SAT focuses far more on external knowledge than the LSAT making it much easier to study for.

    “Acquired skills” is a very broad term. Obviously, infants don’t have the skills to take these tests. Some infants, however, have a far greater innate capacity to learn and apply things than others. This allows them to “acquire” more skills, and do better on standardized tests, and particularly the LSAT.

    True, studying the methods of solving games quickly (the most learnable part of the LSAT) may help you do somewhat better, but in my experience, the ability to excel is dictated far more by natural abilities than by learned methods.

    I believe it is an intelligence test, and I didn’t fail.

    Let me ask you this: do you believe that everyone is equally intelligent, or that intelligence doesn’t play a big role in a person’s test results?

    #984462
    benignuman
    Participant

    frumnotyeshivish,

    The LSAT is an intelligence test. However you can learn how to take the test and improve your score a great deal (I know someone who improved themselves from approximately the 65th percentile to the 95th) and most people over time substantially improve their score.

    I suspect that the same phenomenon would occur if people took any intelligence test numerous times and/or read books that explain how to take the test.

    This doesn’t mean that the person became more intelligent, it just means that they learnt how to defeat the test such that it is no longer measuring intelligence (and therefore the test is no longer testing “intelligence”).

    #984463
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I don’t believe the LSAT is learnable. Take a look at law school forums, where you have thousands of kids killing themselves to do 5 points better on the LSAT and get into better schools, and they cannot. There are people who are trying for years to improve their score, and paying thousands of dollars for courses and lessons.

    Sure, some of them improve, and the vast majority eventually plateau and simply cannot get their score to move.

    #984464
    yytz
    Participant

    You can increase your scores through practice, and through learning techniques to get a handle on those thorny logic problems. There’s just a limit to how much you can increase them. And your score will be different each time you take a (real or practice) test, so it’s likely that the real one you take won’t be as high as what you’ve sometimes been able to achieve in practice tests.

    #984465
    benignuman
    Participant

    PBA,

    Sure they plateau. But almost all improve substantially from their earliest practice tests until their actual tests. You can’t just take one practice test and judge yourself.

    I also think that is especially true with a yeshiva guy whose reading comprehension might be weak from lack of practice. Reading comprehension can be improved a great deal just by reading a lot more and taking practice tests (even without a book teaching you methodology).

    yytz,

    There do seem to be a lot of people that do worse on the real test than their practice tests. I suspect that many of them are not taking their practice tests under the same conditions that you have in the real test.

    Take your practice tests in one sitting with only the same breaks they have on the real deal. Also if you do poorly on the real test, take it again. Many law schools will evaluate you based only on your highest score.

    #984466
    Ender
    Participant

    Playtime: I am in Law school now, so it is possible that i may know more than many of the very wise and knowledgeable posters here.

    1) To get into the elite t-14 schools you need to score at least high 160’s, preferably low 170’s. To get into a lesser ranked tier 1 school low to mid 160’s are usually fine.

    2) It depends how you define getting through law school. Obviously, some people do better than others. But most of the yeshiva guys that I know in school are doing pretty well (average or above). I didn’t make a real study, but my impression is A) The students that are brilliant can do well by just cramming towards the end of the semester. B) the students that prepare and study hard throughout the semester to pretty well even if they aren’t super smart. C) those that aren’t really smart and don’t study hard throughout the semester and try to figure it all out at the end don’t do well.

    3) There are several books that you can read that give you a taste of what law school is like so that you can decide if it is for you or not. I suggest “law school confidential”, “1L” by Scott Turow, and “law school insider”. (Law school insider seems to be out of print so you might have to find someone that already owns it to borrow from.)

    Another book that might help a lot is “getting to maybe”. It’s a book that explains the unique testing style of law school exams, and teaches you how to write essay answers that the professors are looking for.

    #984467

    My husband just finished his first year of law school at one of the top 14. We will be saddled with a lot of debt when he graduates, but on the other hand he will be well positioned to get a high paying job. Yes, the market for lawyers is becoming increasingly competitive, but from what I have seen so far, those who are passionate, charismatic, and bright can succeed (but with an important caveat: you can no longer afford to be picky about where you go).

    Your situation, though, is different. You just need to do “decently well” in law school and you get a free degree and a guaranteed job? Sounds good, but make sure it’s something you really want first. If you’re just in it for the convenience, RUN AWAY NOW. Law school is hard work, but you CAN succeed if and only if you care enough. You should not make this kind of commitment based on money alone. If you don’t care about law, don’t do it.

    If, however, you are passionate about law, you’ll be fine. Study hard for the LSATs. If you can get a 165, you’ll have your pick of schools. Even if not, you’ll find some law school to accept you. Once you get there, show up to every class barring a Yuntif conflict (unfortunately, “spring break” doesn’t always overlap with Pesach) or a serious emergency. If you miss class for any reason, you will fall behind. Do the assigned reading well in advance of class and volunteer to comment in class often. Don’t be afraid of giving the wrong answer.

    You must realize that law school will take up a lot of your time and energy. If you are willing to commit to that, you will be fine. I assume when you say “decently well” that you mean at or just below the median. Please correct me if you mean something else.

    Keep us posted on what you decide!

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