- This topic has 34 replies, 11 voices, and was last updated 12 years, 9 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
The gemara says they are chayiv.
But I heard there is a rishon who says they are patur.
I can’t find it on google.
Anyone know anything?
The gemarah in kidusin states very clearly (with no dispute) that they are chayov, actualy all other mitzvos asheh sheloy hazman geramah that women are chayov we learn that from mezuzah.
Who was the rishon? I’d never heard of this one. I didn’t know that this was even a shilah!
I dont thing that “someone” is right.
And what if the Rishon spoken of is non-existent. How is that point determined?
BTW, what search syntax did you use in your attempts to google this information?
Even if you find it exists, can we pasken from a random outlying Rishon?
The ???? in .?????? ?? says they are ??????, but there was a ??? ????? that ????? should be compared to ????? ???? and they should be ??????. The ???? rejects this ??? ????? based on the ???? of ???? ???? ????? which the ???? holds applies to ?????, and ???? ??? ???. The .???? ??? ?? says that the ???? of ???? ???? ????? applies to ????? ????. This is asked as a ???? by ‘???, whose answer would render women ??????. It’s not impossible that a different ????? answers the ???? differently and holds that they are ??????.
I am not aware of any ????? who actually holds this way, though.
I do not understand this question. It is a Mishna in Berachos 20 that clearly says they are chayav in mezuzah. This is not even a dispute. This Halacha is also brought down clearly in Shulchan Aruch Yoreh Deah 291-3, as well in Rambam mezuzah 5 -10.
What’s the mitzvah of mezuza?
To kiss it as you walk thru the door?
Why would they be patur, I don’t understand. A mezuza is a din in the cheftza (house) not the gavra (woman)
I do not understand this question. It is a Mishna in Berachos 20 that clearly says they are chayav in mezuzah.
Correct.
This Halacha is also brought down clearly in Shulchan Aruch Yoreh Deah 291-3, as well in Rambam mezuzah 5 -10.
Also correct, but that doesn’t mean no rishon holds differently (which is highly unlikely anyhow, since he would have to find a diyuk in a different mishna, which argues on the one you mentioned from Berachos, and pasken like it).
What’s the mitzvah of mezuza?
To kiss it as you walk thru the door?
To attach it to the doorway.
Why would they be patur, I don’t understand. A mezuza is a din in the cheftza (house) not the gavra (woman)
The ???? in two places, .?????? ?? and :???? ?? has a ??? ????? that they should be ??????. The ???? does not answer that it’s a ??? in the ????.
mbachur,
That’s precisely why they would be Patur. Since the Mitzva is for the owner of the house that would make it the husband’s Chiyuv. If a woman is living alone then she, being the owner, is the one Mechuyav.
If there is no shitah in Mishnah and gemarah that say they are not chayov how can there be a rishon who says against a gemarah with no other gemarah supporting him?
95,
Actually, you would have to find someone in ?????, because it’s a ???? ??????!
Haleivi,
The reason she would have been ????? would either be because of a ???? to ????? ???? or from a ???? of ???? ??? ???? (as per the two gemaras I quoted). Otherwise, as ???? ??? ??? ???? ????, she would be, (and, in fact is) ?????.
95,
I know, I also looked (in ??????), and realized as I was going along that the ???? probably never meant it as a real ??? ????? (based on the ???? in ?????).
95,
You friend may have mistaken the ????’s ??? ???? as a ???? ???????, or confused the ???? ????? ????? with ?????, which women don’t do.
It was worth it, if nothing else, for the discussion, and research we did!
Yes, that’s what I thought you meant. 🙂
DY,
I’m starting to remember something about that, thanks for the memory jog
Daas Yochid,
I was saying that if he saw someplace that Noshim are indeed Patur, the only context he would have seen it would be that it is usually not her Chiyuv, unless she’s living alone.
As for the Gemara, as you said, it was not a Hava Amina, only a question as to why it is not the case. The Gemara in Kedushin, though, is talking before we established that Zman Grama is a Ptur.
I was saying that if he saw someplace that Noshim are indeed Patur, the only context he would have seen it would be that it is usually not her Chiyuv, unless she’s living alone.
I guess I misunderstood your point; sorry.
As for the Gemara, as you said, it was not a Hava Amina, only a question as to why it is not the case.
Yes, that’s what I meant when I wrote “I know, I … realized as I was going along that the ???? probably never meant it as a real ??? ????? (based on the ???? in ?????). “
The Gemara in Kedushin, though, is talking before we established that Zman Grama is a Ptur.
Actually, I think your previous point is valid for the ???? in ?????? as well (which also knew ???? in ?????).
I found a griz brought in nesivas hakodesh on menachos 34a dh veha that asks from the mishna in brachos that an eved kenani is chayav in mezuza. how can that be. the gemara is mevuar that it is a chovas hasocher v’ain kinyan l’eved . so he answers The chiyuv is not talui in his kinyan in the huse. It is talui on for whom the house was meyuchad for. so even if it is only for avadim they are a dweller and will be mechayav in mezuza
for a full cover on this sugya ( chiyuv on socher) look in the mesivta in otzar iyunim maareches 17 .1 .2
It is possible for an Eved to own a house. If someone gives him a present on the condition that his boss does not get it, it will belong to the Eved. As for the Chiddush itself, perhaps the fact that the Chiyuv is only if you are living in the house for 30 or more days, would point to that direction.
“If there is no shitah in Mishnah and gemarah that say they are not chayov how can there be a rishon who says against a gemarah with no other gemarah supporting him?”
In some cases there are tanaitic sources outside of the mishnah that might disagree with the mishnah and gemara. An example is the case for women reading the megillah: There is a tosefta that can be interpreted as it being a problem for a woman to read the megillah for a man even though the mishnah and bavli definitively rule that a man can fulfill the mitzvah by hearing a woman read. Rishonim disagree and the machloket continues to this day, with the majority of Ashkenazic acharonim siding with the Rema, and Rabbi Ovadiah Yosef ignoring the Rema (as he should — he is Sefardic!) and ruling that l’chatchila a woman can read for a man.
charlie: The thing is, it’s very rare to find a place where a sizable number of rishonim follow a tosefta over the mishnah, bavli and yerushalmi. The case you quote is one of the exceptions that proves the rule.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.