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Curiosity: No. None of those issues (or any other that can be thought of) exist outside of Halachah. D’kulo Bah. You can find the answer to all of these in Torah. And yes, it could be that the Halachah is “Muttar” to wear colored shirts but a Yeshivah or institution will decide to have a dress code where they only choose certain colored clothes. Do you C”V think that when R’ Ovadia Paskened that “land for peace” was acceptable that it was out of political or personal feelings, or even out of a very well-educated guess (which is really what your definition of Da’as Torah in this case turns it into) as to what’s right? Of course not. He knows Torah and found a Ra’aya in Torah. It was a Halachic decision. Just like the current Gedolim’s struggle to re-work the Tal Law comes out of their knowledge of Torah. B”H every question, whether minute or huge, has an answer in Halachah. Every tiny detail of our life can be found there. There is no room for any outside considerations, even if we hide them under the guise of “Haskafa”, to override that.
So if you really want to say that “Hashkafa” comprises of how we decide to treat the areas of Halachah that are Muttarim but not Chiyuvim, I can’t disagree with you. But that’s not at all how people use the word.
i think that health relishes these threas…it gives him some vicarious pleasure to be recognized by so many…even if his shitta is totally misleading…..
to greatest; please look up the Ramban in sefer hamitzvos (mitzvo 4 of the ramban) and see what he writes about eretz yisroel and our duty to conquer and defend it.
As a religious Jew who tries to keep and do as many mitzvot as possible the only place would be or could be is to live and work in the Land thru farming and industry as well as protecting the gift we received by serving in the army so by definition I must be a zionist and a religious one at that
cholent guy – “Israel proper means Israel, as in the landmass, not against Israeli nationals in general like in Bulgaria.
I said casualties DUE to terror.”
Actually you didn’t say that originally. You changed your post. Your OP said -“because I know of a city that has had more terrorism in the last 20 years than Israel for it’s whole existence.”
You change your post later on and then state -“I said casualties DUE to terror.”
No, you didn’t and that’s what I called you out on. Perhaps you should reread what you wrote before you post a response? So this way at least it looks like you’re responding with logic.
“Haven’t you ever heard of plain old murder?”
Yes, I have, but that’s not in the definition of terrorism. Perhaps look up the definition of “terrorism”?
“The rockets are a terror ATTEMPT. As in, a failed terror attack.”
Ok. And I said it’s a terrorist attack -“Hey just because you/they haven’t had any recent casualties, doesn’t mean it’s not a terrorist attack.”
You agree with me that it’s a terrorist attack, but since I didn’t define it as “failed” you say I’m wrong? I don’t care if the attack is failed or not, I was pointing out the constant terror attacks Israel has. And btw, your point is moot because there have been quite a few casualties due to rocket fire, even if it wasn’t yesterday or the day before.
“By the way, you keep on talking about giving Israel to Turkey. That might be a bit of a problem, seeing as Syria Isin between them and they don’t share a border.”
We can kill two birds with one stone. Turkey should take over Syria & their puppet Lebanon, along with Israel.
“Why not just make Israel part of Britian, like it once was?”
This shows that you have no knowledge of history. The English were a lot worse to the Jews than the Turks.
“Or the 51st state or the 15th territory while your at it?”
It wouldn’t be such a bad idea, but the US would never accept. Right now the US gov. is the most Anti-semitic than it ever was. Now e/o – don’t go calling me out on this. I’m not comparing them to other countries who are even more Antisemitic.
“P.S I’m as far from being a lib as the u.s is from Italy.”
Nowadays with air travel -it’s not that far.
“To paraphrase you, its a typical anti-Israel lie.”
Nothing in my post even remotely resembles a lie. Just because you do it – doesn’t mean e/o else does it too!
Avi K -“Health, that’s right.Blame the victims.You are motzi diba al haAretz and motzi shem ra on millins of Jews.”
If I had a buck for everytime you posted the above to me -I’d be a rich man!
And I only blame the Tzionim, not any victims.
I have heard both sides of the arguments already, I dont think that I or anyone can pasken on this. Something like this needs a gadol.
On one hand it might be a Mitzvah, on the other hand it had a direct result in the death of Jewish people as well as has angered a lot of nations which in result has cost many Jewish lives.
Besides, there might be other issues such as the Shalosh Shevous. Something like this, needs someone big to pasken.
Can anyone say “sinas chinom”?
2scents: “on the other hand,it had a direct result in the death of jewish people as well as has angered a lotof nations which has cost many Jewish lives”
The falsity of this comment is breathtaking. Hitler jm’s wrote his infamous book and incited his compatriots well before there was a jewish state or even a jewish homeland. His minions sure didn’t need any encouragements to kill jews. Stalin forced millions of jews to abandon their religion decades before there was a Jewish state…. and methinks that the nations did not need much encouragement to persecute the jews…see crusades, inquistion, pogroms….
This is about Halacha. where does Sinah come into the picture?
unless you are referring to those Police batting Yeshiva Bachurim..
2cents. I wasn’t talking about your comments, but rabbiofberlin answered correctly.
Sam2, I only just now saw your reply. Yes, that’s exactly how I understand Hashkafa. It’s the definition for how different sects treat various gray areas in halacha that are not confined to assur, mutar, or patur. There is not always a “correct” and “incorrect”, and sometimes some sects do things one way, while others do it a different way. Not necessarily because of halacha, but because of hashkafa. Hashkafa should not be invented by individuals, but can be applied by everybody. We can’t change our halacha to fit the times, but an adam gadol has the right to use his hashkafa to be dan in gray areas where multiple interpretations of the gedolim before him can be understood.
As a great example, the major Litvish yeshivas in the US and Israel were all started by talmidim of the same exact Yeshiva in Europe, but yet each one has a different way about going at it. Some focus more on mussar, others more on frumkite, some learn Maharals, while others stress mussar shmoozim on kochos hanefesh. Some learn bekiyus seder to cover more ground, yet others learn it slower and get more clarity. How could it be that all these roshei yeshivas and gdolei Yisrael, including Rav Hutner, Rav Pam, Rav Leibowitz, Rav Ruderman, Rav Kamenetsky, Rav Kotler, Rav Finkel, and others all have different ways of teaching talmidim if they all learned in the Slabodka under the Rav Nosson Tzvi Finkel? The Terutz is that each one has his own personal tchunos which influence their personal hashkafas. It’s not a matter of right of wrong, correct or incorrect. C”V that we should say that some of them “got it wrong.” This lesson is not my own, but something I learned from a very close senior talmid of Rav Leibowitz ztz”l, and who himself is an adom gadol meod and has had a role as a Rosh Yeshiva for many years. A solid hashkafa is real and necessary, and I’m sorry if your experience with it has been negative.
Curiosity: But even with your definition of Hashkafa, everyone should be able to agree, since it’s all about how you treat the “R’shus” in life, that every Halachah-observant Hashkafa is equally legitimate. People no longer have the ability to say, “That’s okay, but it’s just not for me.” And this causes tremendous problems. I have no problem with having a Hashkafa. I’m sure if someone dissected everything that I did that they could find a “Hashkafa” for me as well. But I think you are fooling yourself a little if you think that that’s how and why people use “Hashkafos”. What you say is fine and true in theory. But that’s just not how it’s used in the real world.
ROB -“and methinks that the nations did not need much encouragement to persecute the jews…see crusades, inquistion, pogroms….”
This is true, but having a State in Israel made their hatred much worse!
Quoted from the Satmar Rebbe on the other post:
“However, it is clear as day to anyone who can perceive truth that the source of all suffering, including the dangers of war, is the outcome of the existence of that Zionist state, that is of no value or benefit either to G-d or to the Jewish People. On the contrary, that State is the cause of all suffering and destruction, uprooting of religion and the Torah. The Zionist government is the one who ignited the anger of the Arabs by provoking them in various ways, and were it not for the stubbornness of these wicked rulers there would not be the danger of war.”
Health, it used to be a nickel. Inflation has sudsdenly picked up. The point is that you are making the Zionists (who are among the victims)scapegoats for the crimes of our enemies. This is the same tactic used by Holocaust deniers/explaners.
Avi K – “The point is that you are making the Zionists (who are among the victims)scapegoats for the crimes of our enemies. This is the same tactic used by Holocaust deniers/explaners.”
You’re very naive. Read the above paragraph from the Satmar Rebbe Zt’l.
Health, there you go again with the Satmar Rebbe. Please try to realize that he was a daas yochid, and most people don’t hold like him!
The Satmar Rebbe describes the hate towards Israel today, whom does he blame for the hatred that has existed for the last few thousand years, were the zionists to blame for pogroms, for the Chomnetzki massascre, for the blood libels?
Avi: That’s a bubbe maaisa.
his book. what ‘books’ did Satmar Rebbe write?
BTW,
i did read the ‘book’ you are referring to. It is based on the Gemaras and Chazal.
I will not comment on which side is correct and which not, only that the Satmar Rav was a learned man and was in position to voice (what he held is) the position of Chazal.
Englishman, which?
2scents, so were Rav Kook and Rav Tzvi Yehuda. So was Rav Soloveichik. Read “Torat Eretz Yisrael” (in English) by Rav David Samson.
The Satmar Rebbe’s sefer is actually based on gemaros and divrei chaza”l, and he has about 185 reasons why he believes the State of Israel is illegitimate. I’m not paskening whether he was right or wrong; he was a HUGE gaon, and he knew what he was talking about, but he was a da’as yochid, and the other gedolim (I’m not going to write a list) who disagreed with him were huge geonim and they knew what they were talking about as well.
tahini -“The Satmar Rebbe describes the hate towards Israel today, whom does he blame for the hatred that has existed for the last few thousand years, were the zionists to blame for pogroms, for the Chomnetzki massascre, for the blood libels?”
E/o knows that the hatred was for many years beforehand.
Haven’t you heard of Eisev Sonai L’yaacov?
Did you ever hear of the expression -“fan the flames of hate?”
This is what the Satmar Rebbe zt’l meant – that the Zionists added a lot of fuel to the fire!
Wake up and smell the coffee. Thr Rebbe’s insight is 100% true.
oy vey: He wasn’t a daas yochid at all, other than on some minor issues. On the illegitimacy issue, the others agreed with him. See my post here: http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/why-was-the-national-anthem-or-g-d-bless-ameirica-not-sung-by-siyum-hashas/page/5#post-401162
He was a da’as yochid as far as prohibiting taxes, government benefits, voting, and any act which positively affects – or causes one to benefit from – the state in any way. Obviously, with regard to his opposition to Zionism, there were many other gedolim who agreed with him. (Just like there were many gedolim who disagreed with him.)
Did you ever hear of the expression -“fan the flames of hate?” you bet I have heard the phrase over and over again, but with rather different protagonists to the ones you have in mind Health.
Pogroms and the Shoah have taught us to lift our heads up and not fear fanning the hate of our enemies, but learn to stand up for ourselves, thats what hesder yeshiva boys do, they learn to daven and to fight, following in the footsteps of the Torah. I can understand different great rabbonim have different opinions (and political ideologies too but that is always kept quiet), however why do people quote sefarim written in relatively recent times, without going back to the Chumash itself and see how Joshua reclaimed the land, how David fought for his people etc. We can all quote the rabbonim we specifically follow but why do people place rabbinical political ideology before Torah? There are differences between what is d’raita and what is d’rabbanan for a reason.
The in fighting in charedi communities is awesome, every bit as troubled as disputes between orthodox and reform, and truly tragic, with great rabbis assigned body guards to protect them from the followers of those they dare to disagree with.
Avi K:
“”The point is that you are making the Zionists (who are among the victims)scapegoats for the crimes of our enemies.”
I believe the correct term is “blame”. And yes, I am.
Oh, and I’m going to have see a reliable source for that story about the Satmar Rebbe before I even consider taking it seriously.
tahini:
“The Satmar Rebbe describes the hate towards Israel today, whom does he blame for the hatred that has existed for the last few thousand years, were the zionists to blame for pogroms, for the Chomnetzki massascre, for the blood libels?”
You are comparing apples to oranges. All of those events took place in Europe, thousands of miles away, and were not the fault of the Arab nation. A better comparison would be to the various Sephardi communities spread throughout the Arab Middle East, who lived in relative peace with their neighbors for thousands of years. (Until 1948 when they were, as a direct result of the founding of the State of Israel, all robbed, mobbed, and kicked out. Add them to the list of casualties caused by Israel’s creation.)
Now, no doubt there were instances of Arab persecution of the Jews pre-1948; but it never occurred on the scale that it happened on after 1948. Never did all the Arabs join together with the stated goal of pushing all the Jews into the sea. Never did the Arabs murder 15,000 of our brothers and sisters in a mere 60 years. Never were all the Sephardim expelled from their ancient communities. This only happened after, and due to, the creation of the State of Israel.
Techina -“however why do people quote sefarim written in relatively recent times, without going back to the Chumash itself and see how Joshua reclaimed the land, how David fought for his people etc. We can all quote the rabbonim we specifically follow but why do people place rabbinical political ideology before Torah? There are differences between what is d’raita and what is d’rabbanan for a reason.”
Go away from Nach and go back to the five books of Moses. I’m not going into all the Aveirahs that a person can end up doing in the IDF -I want to mention right now the Chumash since you mentioned Tenach. The Chumash talks about how bad it is to be “Koach V’oizem Yodi…” and this is exactly how the Israelis and their IDF think. They think Might means Right.
No… I think when someone says Zionist,they mean pro the state. And considering that the state of Israel isn’t good to frum Jews… no, I’m not a Zionist.
Health, how about Rambam (Hilchot Melachim 7:1)? What about all of the aveirot one can do anywhere? What about businessman who calls himself “self-made”.
Nanny, not good to frum Jews? What about alll of the money given to yeshivot and kollelim? How much do other governments give?
Now that Avi K mentioned it, the State of Israel actually gives more money to Torah than any other organization in the world.
OVKTD: Yes, and that is a tremendous Z’chus for them. But there are a lot of things they do that are not so good for Frum Jews. Being a country where every law and decision affects Frum Jews magnifies everything. It means that every good choice does a ton of good for Jews, but every bad choice R”L does a lot of bad.
Avi K -“What about all of the aveirot one can do anywhere? What about businessman who calls himself “self-made”.”
Your delusions are comical. Yes, anyone can go to Goyishe concerts and be Oiver on Kol Isha, but Frum Jews don’t go to them. OTOH, Frum Jews are forced to be Oiver on Kol Isha in the IDF! And this is just the tip of the iceberg.
And your comment about businessmen is being Motzay Laz on every businessman. There are many Goyishe businessmen who are on the up & up, Kal V’chomer how many Frum businessmen are Ehrlich!
Stop spreading lies just to defend the Medina & the IDF.
Against my better judgment, I am making a comment on some of the posters here. it is useless to try convincing the likes of health ,vochindik and others who are trying hard to continue propagate the views R’joilish zz’l. However, it is right to correct facts. One of their arguments is that the jews lived without fear under the arabs (see mw13) and that all those persecutions were done by europeans (as if that matters). Well, some of you have quoted a short passage from igeres teiman as supporting the “sholosh shevuos’ argument.I read the whole igeres (rather lengthy) and what do you think the main subject of the igeres is ? ( 800 years ago…) persecution and forced conversion by moslems!! and this continued for many centuries- the jews (and all minorities) were considered “dhimmi”- foreigners, with all the problems it engendered. and ,right now, today,all minorities are persecuted mercilessly in afgahanistan, egypt, iraq, iran and others. so, please save us the view of benevolent, “nice’ moslems and the delusional idea that life under moslem rule would be idyllic!
Avi K -“Nanny, not good to frum Jews? What about alll of the money given to yeshivot and kollelim?”
And this point is why many Yeshivos/Kollelim don’t take from the Medina. So the Zionists can’t say -“you owe us”. But you notice they didn’t exempt these Yeshivos from the draft that they are now instituting on the Bochurim/Yungerleit.
The words of the Brisker Rov zt’l have been proven true.
The story was s/o came to him way at the begining of the Medina and asked if Yeshivos can take money from the Medina. He took out a golden chain & broke it in half. He said -“Just like I broke this chain, if you take money from them they will break the Yeshivos”.
They had the “Status Quo” since the begining of the State, not to draft guys in Yeshivos and see what they are doing now.
I believe that many zionist arguments are enshrined in shas and halacha, for example, that all Yidden should be in Eretz Yisrael. As for the actual state itself, I have slight indifference toward it’s current nature, but great hope for the future.
The medinah is only the framework after all. Who set it up? Hashem, Ain Od Milvado (See: Rambam’s first principal of faith). It’s not too hard to see that even as things are it has served/facilitated a purpose; Jews being exposed to Torah and given the opportunity to come close to Hashem like nowhere else on Earth. There are literally hundreds of thousands of baalei teshuva and more by the year. It’s only a matter of time before the nature of the government and the medinah too becomes shomrei Torah umitzvos.
In the end, those who argue against the state are only really arguing against emunah.
ROB -“so, please save us the view of benevolent, “nice’ moslems and the delusional idea that life under moslem rule would be idyllic!”
It would be – under Turkey. You don’t need to have every Muslim country ruling over us, just one.
And guess what? – When there is no Medina anymore, just individuals who don’t keep the Torah, it’s very likely Hashem will have mercy on us and bring Moshiach.
The Medina is like a thorn in his eye.
Sam, you are confusing the Medina with the government. When bahab fell on Yom HaAtzmaut Rav Tzvi Yehuda would say both Hallel and selichot. Hallel for the State and selichot for the government. The solution is for frum Jews to make aliya and vote for change.
Health, and you are motzi laaz on every soldier who davens for Hashem’s help.As for kol isha, we went through this before. There are heterim. What is the hetewr for someone who can to refuse to defend Am Yisrael?
health-you are delusional in thinking that turkey can be “appointed’ as the overlord of Eretz Yisroel. The Turks were thrown out of then-Palestine in the First World War by the British and their allies, the Arabs. And what makes you think that the Turks will be “nice” to the jews? The Iranians ,under the Shah, were a haven for tolerance of the Jews -who were there for two and half thousand years!- and guess what happened….the mullahs took over and the vast majority of Persian Jews fled,because they were persecuted mercilessly.
Right now, the Turkish governement is going through the same convusions as Iran did a generation ago and it may only be a matter of time before it ,too, becomes, an Islamic republic. If you don’t beliive me, read some of the commentators on the present political situation of Turkey.
Avi K -“Health, and you are motzi laaz on every soldier who davens for Hashem’s help.As for kol isha, we went through this before. There are heterim.”
Even if some have Heterim -how could you force your Heter on others? Secondly even if there are Heterim -it wouldn’t apply in the IDF because the Kol Isha brings to Kurva.
“What is the hetewr for someone who can to refuse to defend Am Yisrael?”
Not only don’t you need a Heter to go to the IDF, acc. to the Gedolim it’s “Yahrog V’al Yavor” to go!
Avi K -“The solution is for frum Jews to make aliya and vote for change.”
How many times can you repeat the same nonsense?
There aren’t enough Frum Jews in the world right now to make a difference.
ROB -“Right now, the Turkish governement is going through the same convusions as Iran did a generation ago and it may only be a matter of time before it ,too, becomes, an Islamic republic. If you don’t beliive me, read some of the commentators on the present political situation of Turkey.”
But right now Turkey is a Modern Muslim country. Stop with the What-if scenarios. If we do our part and get Rid of the Medina and for some reason Turkey becomes another Islamic fascist State, then I’m sure Hashem will do his part and bring Moshiach.
But right now Turkey is a Modern Muslim country. Stop with the What-if scenarios. If we do our part and get Rid of the Medina and for some reason Turkey becomes another Islamic fascist State, then I’m sure Hashem will do his part and bring Moshiach.M/e>
I’m sorry Health, but that’s idiotic. Most of your ideas are sensible, even if I often think them incorrect. But your Turkey idea is incredibly foolish idealism at absolute best, and this post defending it is insane. You would be willing to risk millions of Jewish lives on you (not a major Kabbalist or Posek, but you yourself) being sure that giving Israel to Turkey will bring Mashiach?? That is idealistic negligence so severe that it’s genocidal. I know you liked the Turkey idea. But I think, at this point, even you have to admit that it’s wrong. And if you can find a better answer to rob’s point then fine. But this answer definitely doesn’t hold water.
It is so sad reading these posts and seeing how many yidden who try to be erlich who have fallen into the trap zionism.
Health, you could just give away Eretz Yisroel to the the best Chometz Goy around and buy it back when Moshiach comes. He’s definitely more reliable, and it won’t destabilize things as much.
Health, according to the statistics I have seen there are approximately 800K frum Jews outside Israel. This equals more or less 15 Knesset seats. This would definitely tip the balance. BTW, Turkey is already a fascist state.
Sam -“You would be willing to risk millions of Jewish lives on you (not a major Kabbalist or Posek, but you yourself) being sure that giving Israel to Turkey will bring Mashiach??”
Stop twisting my words. Having Turkey take over right now is No risk to any Jew. The part of Moshiach that I wrote was to answer his Nonsense maybe Turkey will become Islamo-fascist. If anything the reason why these countries are becoming more radical is because the Medina exists. Without the Medina, a lot of these countries would become more democratic.
Avi K -“BTW, Turkey is already a fascist state.”
Don’t use a word – if you don’t know the meaning. Turkey treats their Jews ok.
So here is the score for the anti-medinah people (who beleive it was and is a mistake, not just have criticism)
Jews return to Israel en masse after 2000 years – something beyond anyones wildest dreams until it happened
Jews create a viable state that is more successful than anyone could have imagined
Jews are able to protect themselves with their own army that is the envy of many in the Western world
Jews from the darkest corners of the world finally have a refuge that will take them in – and they start coming in from places off the mainstream Jewish map for centuries
Torah and Torah-based Judaism is flourishing in a way that is beyond anyone’s wildest dreams pre or post Holocaust.
And these are just the big ticket items. Every day babies are born in Jewish hospitals with Jewish doctors, mail is delivered by Jewish postman. Jewish farmers farm the land in the most innovative ways and have returned Israel to a physical beauty that it probably never achieved. etc. etc. etc.
I think <objectively> a religious person would view these things as a gift from G-d and an unprecedented opportunity for His people – especially as it appears to be what Hashem promised so long ago. It may not be a proof for G-d but it should at least make you pretty happy if you are a believer.
But to be anti-medinah you have to REJECT all this. You have to say it is all an illusion. It is not G-d’s work but the work of evil. All the positives must be reduced to nothing and all the negatives must be magnified until the gift becomes something dark and twisted.
To be this rejectionist and bitter takes a lot of energy. You have to constantly deny and be negative. You have to be sad for each achievement and happy with each failure (not c”v the deaths of Israelis – I hope but maybe a little glee when Israel gets a black eye). You have to side with the opinions of some of the worst anti-semites (although not to the extent of N”K).
But not only this. You have no doubts that this is the Torah-true view. You are 100% certain that it is all a bad mistake and should be rolled back. You are not willing to explore other Gedolim’s opinions (even ones you otherwise find acceptable) or be influenced at all by Israeli history, achievements, and Torah growth. It is all an illusion and/or despite the state. I only hope (or wish) that this is just the public face put on for the sake of argument and that deeper down there is some feeling that maybe this is all a G-d given miracle. Not a desire to say Hallel on Yom Haatzmaut but just some positive feeling of hakarat hatov to HKB”HU.
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