Arguing with Rishonim and Achronim

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  • #1158368

    Gavra,

    no.

    We wouldn’t say the Rishon is wrong ( unless the position stated is an abberant one by their own standards)

    ,but neither does that mean are we necessarily wrong

    And to be glib and flippant about them, besides being adolescent, is playing with/bordering on the edge of K’firah.

    .. “The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposing ideas in mind at the same time …

    However,

    On practical issues, at present, it would be as,”

    R’ Dovid Feinstein told me once ??? ????? ??? ?? ?????? ?????

    #1158369

    typo

    aberrant

    #1158370

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    We wouldn’t say the Rishon is wrong ( unless the position stated is an aberrant one by their own standards)

    That “unless” was a hole large enough to drive a tractor-trailer through it, and I’ll take that as agreement.

    #1158371

    If it’s too complicated,better just delete the parentheses

    #1158372

    Le’s say it way:

    We wouldn’t say the Rishon is wrong,although we c/would call

    them aberrant

    ( invariably the ones Slifkin’s ilk are apt to pull out of a hat)

    #1158373

    “aberrant”

    furthermore we do give less weight to some than others

    #1158374

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    We wouldn’t say the Rishon is wrong,although we c/would call

    them aberrant

    Why not just call them “a be normal” and be done with it.

    You are trying to have your cake and eat it too, and it isn’t working.

    Either give the Rishonim full deference, and allow for Shittos like Rabbanu Avraham Ben HaRambam, Iben Ezra, the Rambam himself, etc. and that people should follow them. Or admit that they are sometimes wrong regarding secular knowledge, just like Tosfos argues with Rashi regarding the direction of the Tigris river (which we can see which direction it flows), or Tosfos was deficient in mathematical knowledge of the Pythagorean Theorem.

    By being “Poseach al shtei si’ifim”, you make no sense.

    #1595996

    Yissacher
    Participant

    I don’t understand. Let’s say that there’s a machlokes Rishonim – for example, the machlokes between Rambam and Ramban as to whether magic is real. Surely everyone here either believes that it is or is not real. So everybody here is arguing with a Rishon!

    #1596003

    Avi K
    Participant

    One must be a bar hachi. The Maharshal, the Schach and the Gra all disagreed with Rishonim. As for arguing with Acharonim, the major contemporary poskim are themselves Acharonim. Rav Asher Weiss has disagreed with the Chatam Sofer. The same goes for taking sides. Of course, a person can decide to rely on a certain posek against another, especially on a d’rabbanan (safek l’kula). This is not the same as arguing as he is not saying who he thinks is right.

    #1596076

    laskern
    Participant

    You can argue with Rishonim if you have another rishon backing you up. There is a story of the Shagas Aryeh where he was killed when a seforim book case fell on him. Everyone forgave him except the Levush , The Shagas said אריה שאג מי לא ירא when the lion roars who does not fear him . Tje Levush said Mordechai Yoffe (מי) does not fear him.

    • This reply was modified 2 months, 2 weeks ago by  laskern.
    • This reply was modified 2 months, 2 weeks ago by  laskern.
    #1596077

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Yissacher,

    Arguing means you came up with a svara from your boich (a boich svara) and says the rishon is wrong based on that

    If you have no one to back you up you have no place in saying a rishon is wrong

    #1596161

    laskern
    Participant

    The R”SH, Rav Shimshom Mishantz, mentions on the mishneh Kilaim 5:5, in the middle in the name
    of Chachmei Hamidos, the Pythagorian Theorem.

    #1596264

    Yisaschar etc,
    If it was quantitative, you would indeed be right. But it’s not!

    #1596276

    laskern
    Participant

    The reference for the below is
    http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=1497&pgnum=45

    • This reply was modified 2 months, 2 weeks ago by  YW Moderator-100.
    • This reply was modified 2 months, 2 weeks ago by  laskern.
    #1596275

    Avi K
    Participant

    Rabbi Shay Schachter has a shiur (36:29) on the YU website called
    Rishonim Arguing With Achronim & Arguing With the Shulchan Aruch
    .

    #1596272

    laskern
    Participant

    See the Nodei Bayehudah O”CH 1:38 where Rav Yechezkiel Landau z”l is besides himself where someone argues on the Rishonim.

    #1596292

    laskern
    Participant

    The reason we cannot argue against the Rishonim if their is not a Rishon to back us up, because the closer we are to kabolas hatorah the more reliable they are, opposite the goyim were technology increases with time, so we are not on the level of the Rishonim to argue with them.

    #1596297

    laskern
    Participant

    Look at the Rambam Hilchas Kidush Hachodash 17:24 but Tosfas was trying to avoid calculations discovered by the goyim like the Pythagorian Theorem.

    #1596335

    Avi K
    Participant

    Laskern,

    1. In that case Rav Moshe cannot argue with Rav Yosef Etlinger. However, he can and an Acharon who is of sufficient stature can argue with a Rishon. For that matter, rishonim argue with Gaonim. The Mishna and Gemara are different because there was an acceptance that they are closed (although some Savoraim were added to the Gemara and see also Chochmat Shlomo on Sanhedrin 52b.

    2. Why would Tosafot not want to rely on it? Chochma b’goyim taamin. Moreover, Chazal rely on it in hte discussion of a round sukka. See also Tosafot on Eruvin 14a d”h v’haicha where they bring a difficulty from Greek geometry (see Rambam’s commentary on the mishna where he resolves it (there is also a way if one uses an inner an outer border for the yam).

    #1596339

    Doing my best
    Participant

    I had a rebbi who said you can halachacly argue with all generations after the savaroim(between amoraim and gaonim) but with a %99.99999 chance of being wrong, and therefore you can’t pasken like yourself.

    #1596450

    Avi K
    Participant

    Doing, an ordinary Jew arguing is not even a question. I believe that the subject refers to poskim.

    #1596526

    laskern
    Participant

    Avi, K – They are all estimation of 1 2/5 look at Tosfas in Sukkah 8a where they show that the calculation is not exact. Even according to the SQRT(2) is irrational an estimate with the Pythagorean Theorem that is mentioned above. For PI look at the mishna Eruvin 13b and Tosfas that the calculation is not exact according to Chachmei Hamidos and the Rambam on the mishneh. So if the result is not a perfect square, the Pythagorean Theorem does not buy anything so why mention it? By the way I happened to be a mathematician.

    • This reply was modified 2 months, 2 weeks ago by  laskern.
    • This reply was modified 2 months, 2 weeks ago by  laskern.
    #1596544

    laskern
    Participant

    Gaon, please leman Hashem straighten these paticipants out, if you can argue on Rishonim. I referenced the Nodei Beyahuda who was upset for someone doing that. I recommend to look at his poetic words.

    #1596625

    Yissacher
    Participant

    But the Noda B’Yehuda himself argues with Rishonim. See Yoreh Deah Tinyana 28 where he argues strongly with Ramban.

    #1596708

    laskern
    Participant

    Yissacher, I see that the Neoda B’Yehuda speaks with the greatest respect about the Ramban and if he argues he would argue with the halacha, the RMA he mentions there.

    #1596719

    Avi K
    Participant

    Laskern, how did you study goyish Math? BTW, FYI I also am somewhat of a mathematician having worked in the actuarial field. In any case, if you look at Rambam’s commentary on the mishna in Eruvin (it’s in the back of most gemarot) you will see that he holds that a convenient estimate is sufficient for halachic matters. 1.4. Interestingly, he knew that pi is irrational although this was not proven until Johann Heinrich Lambert did so in 5521. The Gra points out that the word קו is spelled קוה in the pasuk. קוה divided by קו is extremely close to pi/3.

    #1596744

    laskern
    Participant

    I went to Brooklyn College got a BS in Math and Computers, then went to NYU Courant Institute for Masters in Math have 12 credits towards it. I became a member of Pi MuEpsilon, the math honor society. I never became an actuary because of anxiety in test taking. I worked in computers. Your formula is incorrect, it is an adjustments to 3. Multiply 111 by 3 and divide by 106 = 3.141509

    #1596740

    laskern
    Participant

    The Ohr Hachaim Hakadash says in the beginning of Bereishis 1-22 numbers under number 3, we are allowed to interpret pasukim where only pshat is involved but we cannot argue on Rishonim when halacha is involved, as the amoroim could argue on the tanoim in pasukim interpretation. ד”ה ודע שיש רשות

    #1596828

    laskern
    Participant

    To explain in greater detail above post to calculate PI according the GRA:
    קוה = 111 and קו = 106
    111/106 is the adjustment to 3
    ( from the Yam of Solomon – Circumference/Diameter = 30/10 = 3)
    that is multiply 3 by 111/106 = 3.141509

    #1596900

    akuperma
    Participant

    1. All Rishonim and Achronim are dead, by definition, so you need a time machine to argue with them.

    2. We discuss Rishonim and Achronim only in the context of matters that were debated at the time. No one cares what the achronim thought about matters that were already settled by the rishonim, since by the time of the achronim it wasn’t debated.

    #1596853

    Joseph
    Participant

    laskern: You should’ve met our old friend in the CR, Dr. Pepper.

    #1596958

    laskern
    Participant

    akuperma, The achronim interpret the reasoning of rishonim in order that we can apply their view in other situations where their view is not revealed.

    #1596955

    laskern
    Participant

    Joseph, who is Dr. Pepper?

    #1596964

    Joseph
    Participant

    laskern: Dr. Pepper is the Coffee Room’s longtime in-house mathematician and expert. He’s been a member here as long as the Coffee Room has existed. And though his last post was a few days short of six months ago, he hasn’t been very active for the last number of years.

    #1597117

    Avi K
    Participant

    Laskern,
    1. You went toa goyish university?
    2. I wrote that 111/106 is close to pi/3. Rounded to eleven decimals it is 1.04716981132. Pi/3=1.0471975512.
    3. The Gemara mentions Amoraim who lived in very different generations arguing with them.
    4. When do you consider the end of the period of the Achronim to have been?
    5. Many Achronim care. Just to give one every week and very important example, the Mechaber paskens like Rabbenu Tam regarding the beginning and end of Shabbat and the Rema does not disagree. The Gra reopened the matter and paskened like the Gaonimand most observant Jews follow him.
    5. Obviously the Maharshal, Shaagat Arieh, Schach and Gra disagree with the Or haChaim haKadosh. See Rema CM 25:61.

    #1597223

    Avi K
    Participant

    correction: Rema CM 25:1

    #1597286

    laskern
    Participant

    If you look at pi as a continued fractions 111/106 is the first continued fraction 355/113 accurate to 6 decimal places is the next 3.1415929 where the correct value is 3.1415926..

    #1597287

    laskern
    Participant

    See the Minchas Kohen מבןא השמש who paskens like the Rabbenu Tam. The Chasam Sofer O”CH 80 paskens like the Rabbenu Tam even lekula, so he questions why do we consider it a safek and pospone mila in the four mil? Could be according the Rambam has to be a vaday mitzva because a safek is only darabonon, but the Chasam Sofer held that it is a vaday mitzva.

    #1597282

    laskern
    Participant

    The RMA and Maharshal are around 100 years difference from Rishonim ending at the year 1400. The Rambam above Kiddush Hachodash 17:24 says the “goyish” mathematics can be relied on because its truth is evident. If I remember correctly the GRA multiplies the value by 3, why because it is an adjustment as I pointed out, pi/3 has no meaning, there is no indication in pasuk to divide by 3, it happens to have that value.

    #1597308

    laskern
    Participant

    Correcting above post about continued fractions series for pi,
    3, 22/7 “333/106” 355/113 …

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