September 15, 2013 4:03 pm at 4:03 pm #610633
Im discussing right wing or left wing Orthodoxy. How do you know which one you are and at what point do you cross from one side to the other either way?September 15, 2013 4:08 pm at 4:08 pm #983380
i went to yeshiva of flatbush. basically if you are modern orthodox you are on the left spectrum of orthodoxy. if you are yeshivish you are on the right. then there are degrees in between where you are not mo and not chareidi.September 15, 2013 4:38 pm at 4:38 pm #983381
What hashkafos or actions puts you on one side or the other?September 15, 2013 4:42 pm at 4:42 pm #983382
my school is coed. thats an example of being on the left. maybe someone from a right yeshiva can give an example from there.September 15, 2013 5:16 pm at 5:16 pm #983383
Not neessisarily, I have friends in co-ed schools, because if it was seperated there wouldnt be enough frum jews around to make up actual classes….September 15, 2013 7:24 pm at 7:24 pm #983384
When you start saying things like “yatayningwut?” in middle of normal conversation you have definitely left the confines of the left wing.
Also when it’s above 95 and your eighteen month old daughter is wearing thick tights.
Also when you wear your black hat while playing paddle ball.
Also when you eat cholent at least 5 times between Thursday afternoon and Sunday evening.
Just saying, not looking to offend, obviously.September 16, 2013 3:07 pm at 3:07 pm #983385
It seems the Yeshivish world / The right wing of orthodoxy cares a lot more about Hashkafah than Modern Orthodox / The left wing of Orthodoxy. You will not find mussar claasses in Modern orthodox high schools. The general rule of thumb is Co-ed day schools align with modern orthodoxy and Yeshiva ketansa/ Gedolas and Bais Yaakov are more to the right of orthodoxy. Modern Orthodox / The left of orthodoxy believe in valuing a higher education and secular knowledge in its own pursuit is worthwhile while the yeshivish world generally just tolerates higher education / University as a means to make parnassah. Both groups believe in taking on leadership roles within the outside community but the right wing is just a little more focused inwards than the left of orthodox (not always true). The left of Orthodox strongly believes in and encourages an attachment to the state of Israel (celebrating Yom haatzmaut, Serving in the Army, Ex..) while the right values the land of Israel but doesn’t always recognize the state. The right tries to minimize outside influences (TV, Movies, Secular Music, Ex.) while the left fully allows them within the constraints of Halachah.September 16, 2013 3:13 pm at 3:13 pm #983386
Daas Torah. If you belive in Daas Torah you are Charedi, otherwise MOSeptember 16, 2013 4:09 pm at 4:09 pm #983387
You know what? I dislike the term “Modern Orthodox”. Both of my parent’s (AH) came from Europe between the wars. They were Orthodox Jews. I was born into, and grew up, an orthodox Jewish home, went to an orthodox day school and Yeshiva. I’m an Orthodox Jew. It is Chareidism that is the modern innovation. Chareidim today are attempting to rewrite history by falsely claiming that they are carrying on an ancient tradition. Perhaps Chassidish tradition more closely resembles modern Chareidism but Chassidus, itself, is also a fairly modern construct. Any Jew from Talmudic times down to, perhaps, the time of the GR’A would simply not recognize modern Chareidi pracice and normative Judaism.September 16, 2013 5:06 pm at 5:06 pm #983388
Now watch as every responder calls you names and claims that you are distorting the “mesorah”September 16, 2013 5:06 pm at 5:06 pm #983389
So, Redleg, I guess that you don’t learn much Gemara?September 16, 2013 5:23 pm at 5:23 pm #983391
I’m not sure what you mean by a modern innovation. What you call chareidism is just strict adherence to halacha and putting limud hatorah as top priority and a chashivus for daas torah. As far as I’m aware, that’s what they’ve been doing since matan torah. The Gra spent 22 hours a day learning, sleeping in half hour shifts over the course of the day. Who is that more consistent with, the thousands of bnei torah learning in kollel and yeshiva, or a guy isn’t so zahir in halacha, watches movies, wife doesn’t cover her hair, etc. (I’m NOT saying all MO do all of those things, but those are all things that aren’t accepted in chareidi circles, and are done by people in MO circles.)
Also, there are things we can point to as changes from the way it was done before when it comes to modern orthodoxy, but you won’t find any new hashkafos introduced over the course of chaareidi history.September 16, 2013 5:44 pm at 5:44 pm #983392
And here we see another wonderful example of “MO” being used as a “slur”September 16, 2013 5:47 pm at 5:47 pm #983393
HakunaMatada: The Gra was not your typical Jew. 99% of Jews worked a full time job to support their families. There was no such thing as a kollel. It was only the best and brightest who learned full time. The whole kollel system, with thousands sitting and learning, is a modern thing.
As for Modern Orthodoxy, you say that things you mentioned aren’t done in chareidi circles, but are done in MO? You think MO people aren’t careful in halacha but chareidim are? Like the chareidim who covered up for child molesters? Or chareidim who are sent to prison for fraud? A chassidish rebbe was found guilty of fraud a few years ago, and was then a speaker at a meeting on business ethics! He was shown as a shining example of someone who did teshuva – just a few months after being found guilty! It’s like getting someone to speak to alcoholics, saying, “You can kick the habit, I’ve been sober for 2 days now!” You think chareidi women are always tznius? They why do I always hear people complaining about a lack of tznius in Lakewood? You think chareidim don’t watch movies? Please. I have relatives who are chareidim. One is a Rebbe in a yeshiva. He once asked me if I had any good movies he could watch on his computer, since he doesn’t have a TV in his house. I’ve seen chassidim in movie theaters. I’ve written here before that my wife and I went through fertility treatments. One year, we attended the A TIME shabbaton. The Shabbaton is about 99% chassidim. When we were checking out, there was a chassidish family ahead of us on line. They were asked to pay a balance on their room. The Shabbaton was supposed to have been sponsored, and shouldn’t have cost anything. What was the charge? I heard the woman at the desk tell them (they asked her what it was for.) The couple had ordered a movie to watch late on Friday night (yes, on Shabbos!). And not just a regular movie – a movie that nobody should be watching!
The fact is that every group does wrong. Modern Orthodox people are extremely stringent in halacha. Maybe we don’t take on crazy chumros like chareidim do. It doesn’t mean we aren’t careful about halacha. I don’t think right-wing is better than centrist or left-wing. It’s just different. There are 70 correct paths. Not everyone is on the same one you are. Deal with it.September 16, 2013 5:56 pm at 5:56 pm #983394
Anonano: What you said is very accurate, with one exception. You might not find a Mussar class in an MO high school but you will find Hashkafa. In general, MO is a bit more philosophic and rationalist than the current Chareidi outlook, so you will find classes in “Jewish Philosophy” studying Rishonim (Moreh, Chovos Halevavos, Emunah V’deios, etc.) in most MO high schools.
HakunaMatada: The primacy of Talmud Torah over all else on an individual level is a recent phenomenon. That cannot be denied. If someone would claim that it was because in centuries past the community could never afford it, I would not necessarily dispute that (I wouldn’t necessarily agree either, but it is a valid claim). The current mode of everyone learning in Kollel for extended periods hasn’t happened before. I’m not saying it’s a bad thing. It would definitely be a legitimate Tayna to say that this is a Lechatchilah and we were stuck in a B’dieved situation for most of our history. But the fact is that things are different now.
The current views on “Da’as Torah” are very much modern innovations and show an extreme basis in Chassidish thought that permeated into even Litvish society. The current mode of radically changing normative Halachah L’chumra is also a fairly modern innovation, though the roots of it are definitely found in the times of the Rishonim and Chasidei Ashkenaz.
There are some MO things that are also relatively modern adaptations. Some MO leaders do place an interesting emphasis on certain types of secular learning. Far be it from me to impugn R’ Aharon, but his position that even the liberal arts can significantly enhance Talmud Torah is troubling. Maybe for him it has done so (or for people who attend his Yeshivah; Gush somehow manages to get a lot of incredible geniuses), but I don’t see how that is true of the general population. I could very much hear the Taanos both ways about math and science, though. Jews may not have traditionally studied them en masse, but then again no one did.September 16, 2013 6:49 pm at 6:49 pm #983396
I never said that we should all be doing what the Gra did, but to claim that the Gra wouldn’t agree with what we are doing seems ridiculous.
Additionally, there are people from all stripes who do what they’re not supposed to do. It’s not a hashkafa of chareidim to do the things you mentioned. (I don’t want to get into covering up molesters, it’s very complicated in terms of how much evidence is necessary IN HALACHA to take it to the police. So I’m not willing to get into it, because it’s not a slam dunk either way.) Chareidi hashkafa is that movies and tv aren’t acceptable due to the inevitable pritzus and inappropriate content contained in most material. Covering hair is also something that is a halacha, and isn’t debatable. Just because people don’t do what they should doesn’t mean they or other people in their circles think it’s right. unfortunately there are many things people do wrong, but if you ask them, they went condone it. And regarding tznius, there are some things that are clearly defined, like covering hair, and other things which should be done, but are more gray, and not so clearly black and white, such as tightness of clothing. And, as i said, there are plenty of MO who cover their hair, but there are those who don’t, AND WILL TELL YOU THERE’S NOTHING WRONG WITH IT. that’s the difference. And there are other realms of halacha, such as mingling of genders where MO isn’t as scrupulous. In fact, that was one of the reasons the MO rabbis in the early twentieth century modernized it was too attract the masses which they felt would be completely lost, so they sacrificed in halacha hoping for wider acceptance.
Like you said yourself, the way it was back then was how it had to be, people needed to make a living. but when that’s not necessary, such as the Jews in the Midbar, there was no excuse to not learn all the time. The Gra himself says on the Mishna of talmud torah kineged kulam that there’s a mitzvah to learn every second of the day, unless you have a reason not to, such as parnassa. The MO world as a whole doesn’t have the attitude that Torah is all important and the top priority.
I don’t really understand what you mean that Daas torah is an innovation. The Ramban on the posek of Lo sosur says that there are two logical reasons to listen to the chachamim. 1. they’re more knowledgeable and probably right. 2. Because they’re the leaders, Hashem gives them special siyata dishmaya. A third reason is that from learning Torah, you see where the Torah and chazal’s values.and ideals are. Hashkafa isn’t a rabbi’s personal opinion, it’s applying his learning of Torah values to that situation, the same as in halacha issues where it isn’t discussed explicitly in halacha, you have to apply the proper halacha. who else would you rely on for the torah’s perspective on issues if not people with the most Torah knowledge?September 16, 2013 7:18 pm at 7:18 pm #983398
Sectarian affiliation is, of course, not a guarantee of never sinning.
However, one difference between traditional Orthodoxy and MO is that, unlike traditional orthodoxy, MO claims certain aveiros are muttar. MO has attempted (with decreasingly-limited success, B”H) to redefine Orthodoxy to include being matir their violations of halacha.September 16, 2013 7:34 pm at 7:34 pm #983400
HakunaMatada: I don’t think woman not covering their hair and dressing in an untsniusdik way is “Accepted” in Modern Orthodox circles. Does it happen?? Of course. But are we going to ostracize woman from orthodoxy because there not following halacha 100% of the time? That’s not fair no matter what circle of orthodoxy you’re in. Every single MO day school teaches the value of tznius and what woman decide to do is up to them.
“or a guy isn’t so zahir in halacha” This applies to both categories, They’re plenty of Yeshivish people who are “not Zahir in Halacha”. Your attacking the people of a category instead of trying to explain the beliefs (The good) within each category.
“thousands of bnei torah learning in kollel” Yes by and large they’re more Yeshivish people learning full time than MO, But should all of them be Learning instead of supporting their families?? Have you walked into Yeshivas Merkaz Harav? Shaalvim? Kerem Beyavneh? And our very own in America Yeshiva University??? You may disagree with the philosophy but theyre are plenty of Modern Orthodox Men in Kollel and learning full time the same Torah.
I dont think One is better than the other they each category serves a purpose and there is plenty of room in Judaism for both categories.
+There’s more common ground in both (These are just examples / don’t take it at face value : Shabbos. Learning, Kashrus EX.) than slight philosophical disagreements and it would do everyone well to focus on the positives that bring us together than the differences that drive us apart.September 16, 2013 7:35 pm at 7:35 pm #983401
HaKatan: Would you care to give some examples?September 16, 2013 7:41 pm at 7:41 pm #983402
DaMoshe you beat me to asking him to provide some examples
ANONANO I think you are making some very good pointsSeptember 16, 2013 7:43 pm at 7:43 pm #983403
Hakatan” However, one difference between traditional Orthodoxy and MO is that, unlike traditional orthodoxy, MO claims certain aveiros are muttar”
I want to throw up after reading this statement. What purpose does it serve? All your accomplishing is Sinas Chinam and causing people reading this thread to dislike or think lower of Modern orthodox. You gave no examples to back up your claim, It was just baseless hatred (borderline foolishness) against another group you disagree with. The OP originally asked at what point are you categorized into each. Wouldn’t the normal approach to the question would be to explain the differences without putting the other categories down??
There’s Plenty good within both categories and mutual agreement to not have to resort to mocking each other.September 16, 2013 8:02 pm at 8:02 pm #983404
Posts like those from HaKatan sicken me.
I live in a Modern Orthodox community which also is home to a right-wing yeshiva and kollel. The yeshiva and the people in the community get along very well. There is a weekly chaburah, people have chavrusos with kollel guys, and there are Shabbos meal invitations sent both ways.
Contrast that with a community I used to live in which also had a yeshiva. The Rosh Yeshiva told the yeshiva guys that he didn’t trust the kashrus of the community Vaad (made up of the Rabbonim in the community) and they shouldn’t use it. He openly insulted the entire community and said everyone there is a tinok shenishba. Then he wondered why the community didn’t support his yeshiva.
I know which group HaKatan falls into.September 16, 2013 8:04 pm at 8:04 pm #983405
Can you please point out to me where this HALACHA is. I am not saying it doesn’t exist. I am only saying I hear people quote this HALACHA all the time but even ever I asked them were is HALACHA is they can never answer me. and yest it matters I would like to see the wording. more then once have I been quoted halachs that didn’t say what people wanted them to saySeptember 16, 2013 8:13 pm at 8:13 pm #983406
HakunaMatada: By the way, the Gra’s greatness was not in his lack of sleep. Nor was he the first to do that. One of the famous philosphers (Hobbes or Locke, I think) was said to sleep for 30 minutes every 6 hours. There is a modern innovation called the Uberman sleep schedule which says to sleep for 20 minutes every 4 hours. Studies are being done on it, but it seems there have been incidents of people doing it long-term with minimal adverse side-effects.
The Gra’s greatness was his dedication to and level of learning, not his lack of sleep.September 16, 2013 8:24 pm at 8:24 pm #983407
You make good points, but I don’t agree with everything you said.
Obviously there are many shades of gray of MO. But I can say with confidence that there are people who are MO and b’shita don’t cover their hair. I have relatives who are MO, and got their hashkafos from their MO rabbi, who was very respected in the MO world, and he wasn’t makpid that women cover their hair or elbows, or not wear pants, and sometimes even shorts.I assume he did this because he didn’t want to turn them off, but I don’t think it’s okay to condone it, the same way we don’t condone chilul Shabbos when trying to be mikarev someone.
And let’s even grant that you’re right. But do you see masses of chareidi women waking around in short sleeves and hair uncovered? No, you never do. So it’s obviously somewhat accepted in MO circles, or it would never happen.
In regard to learning full time, as long as wives and parents have chashivus for learning and it’s financially feasible, what’s the excuse not to. My point is that it’s a different attitude. The chareidi hashkafa is that learning is the starting point, but if it doesn’t work out because of parnassa or because he’s not cut out for it, then it’s fine. I’ve been around MO kids and adults a lot, and I don’t get a vibe that talmud Torah is ideal way of life for EVERYONE, not just special prior.
And with regard to the not so zahir in halacha,I think you missed my point. I agreed that people aren’t perfect and are very careless in certain areas, lashon hara is a prime example, but the hashkafa is that there are no cutting corners in halacha, and factions of the MO world can’t say the same.
An important thing I forgot to mention is that if the rabbis are on board, then it says a lot more about what the MO world does, and most issues that people have with the way chareidim act are things that our rabbonim don’t approve of. but there are a significant number of MO rabbis who are on board with problematic practices of the community in general.
The problem is, there are many people who are machshiv Torah and mitzvos, but are pro Israel, so they identify with modern orthodoxy, and then you have people at the opposite end of the spectrum who do most of the basics, and label themselves as orthodox (rightly or wrongly), and everyone gets lumped together, so it’s really not fair. so yes, the more right wing MO are basically in agreement with chareidi on most issues.September 16, 2013 8:44 pm at 8:44 pm #983408
I think you completely missed my point with the Gra. Redleg claimed that the Gra wouldn’t recognize chareidib Judaism today, and I was trying to show that the Gr”a was a big believer is the same things that chareidim do.September 16, 2013 8:51 pm at 8:51 pm #983409
HakunaMatada: The tone of your post was excellent. Thank you for commenting on the Response and not the people within the category. I think that is the way for the discussion to move forward:
As far as woman not dressing Tsnius and covering there hair. I believe your confusing categories. There are many people in MO who don’t cover their hair and dress untsniusdik (Shorts Sleeves, Pamts)and maybee even certain Rabbis accept it but I don’t think that’s part of the overall philosophy. MO understands Tsnius and tries to follow it to the best of its abilities. But I will concede that Its Much More Accepted in the MO Community than the Chareidi Community. I think this issue has to be left alone and just agree that although its not correct it does occur in th MO community but is not part of the overall Philosophy.
As far as learning full time I agree with you that the attitude in the Chareidi community is learn torah first and in the MO its support a family and then learn torah. I also agree that if its financially feasible there’s nothing wrong with someone learning full time. This is an example of Eilu Veeilu each person has to do what’s best for him. We can disagree with this point and be OK.
“The problem is, there are many people who are machshiv Torah and mitzvos, but are pro Israel, so they identify with modern orthodoxy, and then you have people at the opposite end of the spectrum who do most of the basics, and label themselves as orthodox” This isn’t a problem Whatsoever. This is the Beauty of AM Yisrael. We are one nation with one Torah no matter Which Philosophy (Right or Left) you subscribe too.September 16, 2013 9:09 pm at 9:09 pm #983410
HakunaMatada: In the midbar, Jews could learn all day because there was man falling from shamayim.
In contrast, now:
A bochur is meeting with his potential future father-in-law and is asked by him, “so what are your plans for the future after you get married?”
The bochur answers calmly, “G-d will provide.”
Afterward, the future father-n-law talks to his wife about the encounter. She asks, “so, is the fellow nice?”
He replies, “Oh, I liked him a lot. Very nice guy and he thinks I’m G-d!”September 16, 2013 9:16 pm at 9:16 pm #983411
I think you misunderstood what I meant at the end. All I meant to say was that because of the broad spectrum of modern orthodoxy, sometimes the differences are blown out of proportion, because although I may disagree on many issues with some in the MO world, there are others who I’m basically in line with, but because they are officially MO and I’m officially chareidi, it can create a big, unnecessary, divide.
I disagree with the way you started your attitude towards learning full time. You write that there is “nothing wrong with it” , while I think it’s pretty pashut that in a perfect world everyone would be learning full time, that’s one of the aspects of talmud torah kineged kulam. I’m not sure what you mean by “eilu vaeilu”; that’s when there are two valid Torah opinions on an issue, but if you look in chazal, what I’m saying is clear. In fact, one if the pshatim of what the “test” was that Hashem tested the Jews in the midbar was now that they had no worries or reasons to not learn, because their needs were taken care of, will they devote all their time to Hashem, i.e. learning, or not. Pretty clear that without financial concerns, there are no excuses, you can’t just decide it’s not what you want to doSeptember 16, 2013 9:21 pm at 9:21 pm #983412
Cute joke, but that joke is a reflection of a lack of bitachon. The father is a shliach of Hashem to provide money, and if he didn’t do it, somehow the son in law would get money. Except that we can’t rely on a nes, so if there’s no derech hatevah income, he can’t just rely on Hashem. But my point is that in a scenario, due to parental or spousal monetary support, he can learn, there’s no excuse.September 16, 2013 9:29 pm at 9:29 pm #983413
It’s all a matter of prospective. The same kind of question can be asked, “At what age is a girl considered an older single?”September 16, 2013 9:30 pm at 9:30 pm #983414
HakunaMatada: You say a perfect world, but really, we’re not in one. Do you deny that we’re on a different madreigah, in different circumstances, from am Yisrael in the midbar?
There is no OBLIGATION for one to rely on someone else to learn Torah.
A) Where is the father in law’s money coming from?
B) While I’ve heard it argued that a wife can be mochel on that section of the kesubah, if she doesn’t want to be, she has every right to ask her husband to live up to it.
Fact is, however good and proper the concept of kollel may be, it hasn’t been the norm pretty much ever until now- are we on a higher madreigah now than any other generation with regard to this?
(BTW: I really have no objection to kollel, though I’m not entirely sure I’d want to marry a kollel guy myself- my objection is to your bit about “no excuse” on the bottom there.)September 16, 2013 9:33 pm at 9:33 pm #983415
ANONANO: I think you misunderstand the MO outlook on supporting a family.
It says “Im ein kemach, ein Torah”. We go to work to support our families so that we can live a Torah life. In my shul, there is a 5:30 AM daf yomi shiur, followed by Shacharis, so people can learn in the morning. There are shiurim every evening, often going past 10:00 PM. Supporting a family is not put above learning Torah – it is simply recognized as necessary. We don’t just insist that our wives work multiple jobs so we can learn – that was not the way it was done for thousands of years! Our parnassah is done so that we can live a Jewish life, not as an independent thing which stands by itself.September 16, 2013 10:09 pm at 10:09 pm #983416
I agree in most situations where the parents can’t support the couple and the wife doesn’t want to our can’t work, then there is no obligation to learn in Kollel. the obligation is to do whatever possible, and what that is depends on many factors. The question is, is it a priority that they are willing to sacrifice for, even if it means the wife working, our is it a nice thing, but it’s not something to bend over backwards for. The first attitude is the attitude of those in Kollel. it’s not easy, you have to cut back on certain things, but if that lifestyle is very important, it’s worth it. There are many people who claim they can’t make it work, but really they’re just not motivated.
The reason Kollel was never the norm is because they struggled even with working. But Baruch Hashem, there’s a lot more prosperity now than there used to be, so it’s realistic for thousands of people to learn full time.September 17, 2013 2:20 am at 2:20 am #983417
The “proud MO” want to hear examples and also engage in name-calling, but, as soon as an example is brought up, they even admit it but they say “let’s leave that aside for now”.
My post above (and this one as well) is, in fact, probably ahavas chinam, but certainly not sinas chinam. I do not CH”V hate MO people. But it is absurd to claim that it is halachicly permissible to “modernize” Orthodoxy as MO delude themselves into believing and as some here are promoting.
(While on the topic of sinah, I saw recently the piece from Rav Meshulam Dovid Soloveichik (MO should recognize that name, as well as his father the Brisker Rav…) who, in the context of Zionists forcibly drafting Yeshiva boys, quoted Dovid HaMelech “Misanecha Hashem esna…” Perhaps that is too offensive to MO’s modern sensitivities (so MO would ignore that, too, one supposes), but there is also a mikor for requiring sinah in certain cases.)
Zionism is another area that MO would “leave aside for now”. The greatest Torah giants (the Brisker Rav, the Chazon Ish, Rav Aharon Kotler, the Satmar Rov and many others, in no particular order) spoke against Zionism, both well before and after Israel was founded, and recent Torah sages have confirmed the terrible errors of Zionism. The Zionists have acknowledged a small portion of their misdeeds. Yet MO makes this heresy of Zionism one of the most important parts of their theology.
Read the old threads; Zionists have no answers and MO (which, besides for its problem of making Zionism a tenet of its faith) also has no answers.September 17, 2013 3:25 am at 3:25 am #983418
I would just like to point that that HaKatan’s post, while not quite as invective-filled as usual, entirely skirted around the question he was asked.September 17, 2013 3:46 am at 3:46 am #983419
It’s an interesting discussion and interesting to note how everyone is bringing true points, with a positive or negative slant depending on their own affiliation.
Anonano does an amazing job of acceptance, tolerance and ahavas yisroel and more like him (her?) in kllal yisroel would lead to a lot less divisiveness…
two points I’d like to add to the table:
a. every person should feel strongly their derech is right, otherwise, why are they on it? respect others for their different ways of serving Hashem and then focus on your own unique derech in achieving perfection as a person and bringing light to the world.
b. I think someone mentioned but if you think about it you’ll realize there is more that unites us than divides us. I always marvel at a chupah – and I’ve been to many – how while the customs differ the words we say remain the same. It’s an incredible experience to attend a wedding between two very chassidish people and one between two completely secular ones in one night and hear the same exact brachos recited under each. Just something to consider.September 17, 2013 11:38 am at 11:38 am #983420
Just to answer the question. The line is probably saying misheberach for the tzahal.September 17, 2013 12:44 pm at 12:44 pm #983421
interjection: The fact is that Tzahal is made up mostly of Jews (there are a few Arabs and Druze members also), who risk their lives to protect ALL Jews living in Israel – even the ones who throw trash at them, and call them the worst names. R’ Shlomo Zalman Auerbach zt”l once said that he went to daven on Mt. Herzel because he considered it kivrei tzadikim.
The Mi Shebeirach for Tzahal has nothing to do with politics. All it asks is for Hashem to protect these Jews who put their lives on the line to protect others.September 17, 2013 1:40 pm at 1:40 pm #983422
HaKatan: Your really proving my point in your tone towards MO.”The “proud MO” want to hear examples and also engage in name-calling, but, as soon as an example is brought up, they even admit it but they say “let’s leave that aside for now”. You seem unwilling to accept that they’re are different points of view other than authentic “Chareidi” Judaism. I think that’s the point of this discussion. There can be two sides to an opinion without putting the other down, and people have to choose what derech is best for them. As long as there is halachik and Rabbinic backing we can disagree on issues and live together.
“it is absurd to claim that it is Halachicly permissible to “modernize” Orthodoxy as MO delude themselves into believing and as some here are promoting.” I don’t understand this statement. MO does not claim to Modernize halachah. It does claim to engage in the outside world within the constraints of halachah and accept the risks that come along with it.
“The Zionists have acknowledged a small portion of their misdeeds. Yet MO makes this heresy of Zionism one of the most important parts of their theology.”
Ok this is pure nonsense and really unfair towards another group that you happen not to agree with. You might not agree with Zionism, That doesn’t make it wrong. This is my point. Rav Kook wore a bekisha and shtreimel and there are literally Thousands of Rabonim in Israel (Rav Aviner, Rav Lichtenstein, Rav Yaakov Ariel,) who agree that Zionism is one of the pillars of Orthodoxy today and is a big part in the bringing of moshiach (Please for everyone’s sake don’t start attacking these rabbis, That was not my point). You disagree with them, That’s Ok but it doesn’t mean that Zionism is heresy, It means they’re different points of views regarding the issue.September 17, 2013 1:45 pm at 1:45 pm #983423
The problem is that while the MO and the MO rabbinate respect the charedi and charedi rabbinate, it does not go both ways.
There is a halachic difference between covering your hair and covering your elbow. Some rabbis permit not covering your elbow, but others don’t. It’s a halachic issue and people should respect other’s opinions.
As for why many MO might not do certain things, as was pointed out before, many people use MO as a catch-all term, so MO will encompass the ultra-RW branch to the barely religious side of the spectrum.
Hakatan, just out of curiousity, if you live in Ch”ul, do you eat in a sukkah on Shmini Atzeres? I see many supposedly frum Jews openly violating halacha by eating indoors. That’s a lot worse than possibly violating daas yehudis and not covering your knees more than 4.5654″ inches below.September 17, 2013 3:08 pm at 3:08 pm #983424
This has all been covered before. Read Rabbi Soloveichik’s own words: yes, the goal of MO was and is to modernize because traditional Orthodoxy was supposed to not be able to survive in America. But netzach Yisrael lo yishaker, and traditional orthodoxy (Litvish and Chassidish) have both flourished while MO laments “Ultra-Orthodox Triumphalism”.
Besides, your explanation of MO seems odd, besides for it being factually false. “It does claim to engage in the outside world within the constraints of halachah and accept the risks that come along with it.” So does that mean a male is permitted halachicly to attend a Broadway show and “accept the risks that come along with it”? Does that explain why YU’s Commentator (one time I happened to pick one up somewhere) had a review of a bar/pub, clearly an issur to even walk into (male and female), with lishonos shel pritzus in the review as well? Come on. It is not “within the constraints of halacha”.
Zionism is heresy and idolatry according to the Satmar Rav, Rav Elchonon, the Brisker Rov among any others. Making that a part of your faith is not Judaism. One may think it is, but one is entitled only to one’s own opinion, not one’s own facts.
The goal of Zionism is to replace the Jewish nation with a Hebrew Goy, like every other nation of the world. This continues even today. Religious Zionists still delude themselves into thinking they can kasher this chazir, but that is their mistake that even Rav Chaim Brisker, way back then, knew was doomed to failure (and forbidden).
I don’t need to attack those Rabbis; according to our greatest sages those Rabbis (particularly, their rebbeim), are terribly mistaken. Both Rabbi JB Soloveichik and Rabbi AY Kook were condemned by many great Rabbis.
It’s not a case of “Eilu viEilu”. These great rabbis made equally great mistakes, which the great sages of the time called them out on, and, unfortunately, their talmidim continue to perpetuate those mistakes.
Read the old threads. Better yet, ask your (non-MO) LOR.
Traditional Orthodoxy, of whatever flavor you like, is the only Orthodoxy. The Torah is perfect and neither needs nor wants to be modernized. Rabbi Soloveichik claimed he needed to do so because American life demanded it. Clearly, this is not the case, yet MO persists in their ways. Kol haMosif goreia.September 17, 2013 3:09 pm at 3:09 pm #983425
The problem is that while the MO and the MO rabbinate respect the charedi and charedi rabbinate, it does not go both ways.
ummmm lol?September 17, 2013 3:19 pm at 3:19 pm #983426
The term is “Das”=”law” not “Daas”=”knowledge”.
There are basically three ways of sinning:
A) Knowing it’s wrong but not resisting the temptation to sin
B) Not knowing it’s wrong and therefore thinking one is acting properly
C) Knowing it’s wrong but deciding that “Modernity” demands the Torah accommodate this.
The essential point, as I wrote, is that MO makes (some) aveiros into mitzvos (option C). The sin of a traditionally observant Jew, however, would fall into either A or B.
I don’t discuss my personal hanahgos, though if you want to know why some Jews eat indoors on Shemini Atzeres, why not ask their them or their Rabbi?
I thought my first post above suitably addressed ANONANO’s post to me. I’m sorry you didn’t think so.September 17, 2013 3:24 pm at 3:24 pm #983427
Your statement isn’t really true. there are MO rabbis who don’t have respect for the chareidi rabbis because they disagree in hashkafa matters and feel that they are unnecessarily machmir in halacha. The reason the chareidi rabbis don’t respect the MO is because they feel that they are wrong, not adhering to halacha as they should, and that they are hashkafically krum.
It’s pretty explicit in halacha that elbows are ervah,n not sure what your referring to. And how can you mock das yehudis which is potentially grounds for a women to lose her kesuba! Eating in the sukkah on Shmini Atzeres is a machlokes, covering knees isn’t.
While I’m not willing to completely side with hakatan, as I mentioned before, the MO rabbis 50-75 years ago did bend the rules to draw people in, and that hasn’t been completely undone.September 17, 2013 5:00 pm at 5:00 pm #983428
1) Which aveiros do the MO make into a mitzvah?
2) If it’s assur to walk into a pub (as you mentioned based on the YU Commentator ad), why is it a mitzvah for Charedim to go to a pub on a date? (Or is that an aveirah that the Charedi make into a mitzvah?)
3) Which great rabbi called out R’ Kook? Keep in mind that in the olden days, criticizing one opinion of a rabbi was not calling him an evil rasha. In those days people were still allowed to criticize an opinion while still respecting the person.
4) Why should I ask them or their rabbi why they don’t eat in a sukkah? The Shulchan Aruch paskens that you have to. The Rema paskens you have to. (That is certainly more than the Rema discusses elbows and necklines.)September 17, 2013 5:00 pm at 5:00 pm #983429
HakunaMatada: Covering joints is actually not so simple. There is a question as to whether the entire joint must be covered, or just the top part of it.
I can tell you that R’ Teitz shlita from Elizabeth holds that sleeves must come down to the top of the elbow, but doesn’t need to cover the elbow itself (or at least his wife regularly wears clothing that is like that).September 17, 2013 5:01 pm at 5:01 pm #983430
PBA, while there may be exceptions, it’s not MO rabbis calling Charedim Erev Rav, Amalek, etc. It’s a terrible disgrace that a Rav in Flatbush called MO, modern day Misyavnim.September 17, 2013 5:02 pm at 5:02 pm #983431
I’m not mocking Das Yehudis, DY is fluid, it is determined by community. It is not necessarily codified in halacha.September 17, 2013 5:04 pm at 5:04 pm #983432
BTW, you keep on bringing the SR, R’ Elchonon and the Brisker Rav in your great crusade against Zionism. One thing to remember is that they are not the be all in Judaism, especially in Charedi Judaism. They are a minority shittah. And that’s the beauty of Judaism. We each follow our own Rabbis. If you feel that you would serve Hashem best by following them, then do so, but you can’t say others can’t follow their own rabbis. (Especially since according to the GRA, following the SR is kefirah. See how easy it is to play the “my way or the highway” game?)
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