- This topic has 25 replies, 8 voices, and was last updated 11 years ago by .
-
Posts
-
Ok – so we were having a discussion at the Shabbos table and the topic of gezairos came up. We had always learned that you can change a bad gezaira into a good one -ex: by davening, doing teshuva, etc. but you cannot change a good one to a bad one.
So – to me this sounded a bit contradictory when it comes to the topic of ayin hara. If someone “gets” an ayin hara, and then somethig bad happens, doesn’t it mean that a good gezaira was changed to bad?
Maybe someone can clarify this for me.
but you cannot change a good one to a bad one.
Are you sure you’re talking about a gezeirah, not a n’vuah?
Define “Gezeirah” please.
Decree
DY: That was for Gefen. How do you know what is a bad gezeira and what is a good gezeira? Maybe you got a cold so you stayed home from work so you missed the surprise inspection where you would have said something wrong and gotten fired.
The cold is still a gezeirah. Hashem could have arranged for you to keep your job without a cold.
Sorry for interrupting again.
DY: True. But it’s a good gezeira.
It may prevent a worse calamity, but the cold itself is unpleasant and was not necessary for the result – ???? ?????? ?????. I would call it a “bad” gezeirah, yet still thank Hashem for it.
I think I remember learning, and correct me if I’m wrong, that positive gezeiros to the klal can’t be changed but they can be changed if it was only declared for an individual. Also I think it was applies to actual nevuos, meaning if it wasn’t publicized then it doesn’t count.
gefen- I think you mean ‘Aveira’ and not ‘Gezeirah’. That intentional aveiros are considered unintentional (“Zedonos na’aseh k’shgugos’) and unintentional Aveiros become merits (Shgugos na’aseh K’zechuyos”) upon Teshuvah.
Interjection, that’s exactly what I was driving at.
Talmud, IIRC, charatah on a mitzvah also cancels it (I don’t recall that it turns it into an aveirah, though).
DY: The Gemara says that it does turn a Zechus into a Chov (Toheh Al Harishonim).
A Gezeirah that is signed and sealed can’t ever be reversed, but it can be slightly changed so that it becomes better/worse depending on what is deserved. It’s an explicit Gemara in Rosh Hashana (maybe the bottom of 17b?).
Thanks, Sam.
DY: The cold is still a gezeirah.
Uh, Tzinin upachin b’yad ikesh?
CAD, good point, but I assume that some colds, if the sufferer wasn’t neglectful of their health, are indeed b’ydei shomayim (and I was going with T613’s example).
DY: We don’t know if it was necessary. Maybe it was the last zechus necessary to allow the good thing to happen. ?????? ?????? ?????? ?? ???
I think every tzarah that shouldn’t come upon us is a z’chus, but we still refer to “g’zeiros raos” and daven that we shouldn’t have yissurim.
T613: I’m pretty sure P’shat in the Gemara in Brachos (4a or 5a) is that there is no one nowadays even close to a level in which they would receive Yissurin Shel Ahavah. Everything is positive in the end, but things that come to remove an Aveirah are still classified as “bad” in our short-sighted this-worldly perceptions.
DY: I hear.
Gefen, what I was getting at is that I never heard of this concept applied to a gezeirah, only to a n’vuah.
Your case wouldn’t seem to be a reversal of the gezeirah anyhow; who says the gezeirah was to have a house permanently?
I think you’re also getting “al tiftach peh l’soton” somewhat confused with ayin hora (“YOU” would be al tiftach).
Well, they’re both supernatural, but my understanding is that one is based on words even without intention, and the other is based on jealousy.
The Baal Shem Tov (I didn’t see this inside; I was flipping through a Kabbalistic pamphlet at a Sefardi Vasikin Minyan I once Davened at) is quoted as explaining Al Tiftach Peh as follows: The Satan is constantly being Me’id to HKBH all sorts of evil things that someone “deserves”. Thus, when you say “you should…” you are becoming a second Eid together with the Satan and that is then seen as actual “Eidus” in Hashem’s eyes.
Dear Sam2:
With all due respect to this pamphlet, this quote from the Ba’al Shem Tov is a dubious attempt at applying Choshen Mishpat lumdus to esoteric cosmic dynamics of which humans have zero understanding. I contend that such attempts should at best be ignored, they do more harm than good.
esoteric cosmic dynamics of which humans have zero understanding
You and I have zero understanding; who says that the BESH”T didn’t have some understanding?
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.