Banning Bris Milah in the United States!

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  • #1032357

    Health
    Participant

    SJS -“Although, I have learned not to really debate with you because you try to twist everything without making sense, so I’ll let the AAP statement stand.”

    Some people you have to repeat your argument over and over because they can’t see anyone else’s opinion.

    I know what the AAP says, why do you keep repeating it?

    “So tell me, do you think 117 babies should die each year for an elective procedure?”

    “There are plenty of children who die directly or indirectly due to their circumcision. That doesn’t include the botch jobs that cause other issues.”

    “Many people are anti-circumcision because they don’t believe in removing body parts just because.”

    The statements of yours’ that I just quoted imply that the reason people are against it is because there are only risks with circumcision. You keep arguing that you should outlaw an elective procedure because of risks.

    But the problem is -you only tell half a story. You fail to mention the medical benefits of circumcision. You pretend that because the AAP doesn’t recommend it, that it must be the risks outweigh the benefits. The Truth is the AAP Policy puts that decision in the parent’s hand -to decide whether to circumcise or not.

    All your posts implicate the following falsehoods:

    1. The AAP must really think that circumcision is not healthy because they don’t recommend it.

    2. There are deaths, in other words risks, associated with circumcision, so therefore they (the Anti-Milah) are justified in making it illegal.

    The Truth:

    1. AAP is not against it/ nor do they think it’s unhealthy, just they won’t recommend it because some of the data is not conclusive.

    2. There are definitely medical authors who say the benefits outweigh the risks. And even the AAP who don’t hold this, don’t say the risks outweigh the benefits. They just leave it up to the family to make a decision on the child.

    3. There is no medical justification to outlaw circumcision; if any law should be made, it should be to force people to have one. Why? Because -many authorities hold that the benefits outweigh the risks, but I’m not advocating forcing this on people!

    #1032358

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    Hello, not recommending means they aren’t against the procedure when needed, but that it isn’t necessary for every male child born in the US.

    Just about every study uses conjecture. There are almost no absolutes in this world.

    Health, I never said I discount the potential health benefits. The question is, do the risks of the elective surgery warrant having such widespread rates of circumcision.

    I’m not FOR the legislation so I don’t know why you are trying to pretend I am. I do think its important to understand where the other side is coming from and not be blinded by research from one side.

    #1032359

    shlishi
    Member

    SJS: No, medical statistics should not be based upon conjecture, as what you’ve posted acknowledges it does. The number I posted from the American Academy of Family Physicians, showing two deaths per year — and that mostly from the anesthesia not the circumcision — is based on actual medical statistics. And even though it’s from 1982, the numbers will not have gotten worse in the subsequent 25 years. Medical technology improves with time.

    #1032360

    Health
    Participant

    SJS – “Hello, not recommending means they aren’t against the procedure when needed, but that it isn’t necessary for every male child born in the US.”

    Hello back. Wrong, it means they aren’t against it if even if it isn’t needed!

    “Just about every study uses conjecture. There are almost no absolutes in this world.”

    Wrong again. The studies I saw were real medical studies, not conjectures. While some of the research might not be conclusive, a lot is. Why don’t you read some of them, instead of getting all your info from the Anti-Milah sites?

    “I do think its important to understand where the other side is coming from and not be blinded by research from one side.”

    Yes, I’ve been doing that the whole time and I thought you were too. You were saying their point is to illegaliize it because medically its’ risks outweigh the benefits, in other words its’ dangerous. But this is not based on the truth! So far, the reasons I have are they are antisemites and anti-religion. Some actually might not be and believe the procedure is painful and therefore feel it should be outlawed. But those who purport medical reasons are simply lying!

    #1032361

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I do think its important to understand where the other side is coming from

    As Health said, it’s based on anti-Semitism. It’s also based on immorality.

    #1032362

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Hello back.

    This gave me a chuckle – SJS was addressing the poster “Hello99”. 🙂

    #1032363

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    DY, for some people its anti-semitic.

    But realistically, if 50% of the US is circumcising, that means MOST people aren’t Orthodox Jews who would circumcise no matter what. So what of the other people who circumcise?

    Health, I don’t get all my information from anti-circumcision websites. However, I have yet to see really balanced information from either side.

    What I want to know is what parent here would want their child to go through an uneccesary medical procedure that, while having small benefits, has uneccesary risks associate with it as well? I’m not talking from a “Hashem commanded us to perform a bris” aspect. Obviously we all are going to continue. But why would non-Jews?

    Anyway, I’ve said my piece. Just understand that there are many people who are MEDICALLY opposed to routine circumcision.

    #1032364

    shlishi
    Member

    The known medical benefits of circumcision, reducing STD, cleanliness, and others, far outweigh the speculation of whatever perceived risk there is.

    #1032365

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Doesn’t make that much of a difference, except to show there are Sonei Yisroel even in Galus America.

    #1032366

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    SJS,

    The point that I am making, as are others, is that if there is some basis medically for circumcision, it is clear that those who wish to ban it have non-medical reasons. Otherwise let them recommend against it, but why take away everyone’s choice?

    To think that these people are motivated by altruistic motives is to bury your head in the sand.

    #1032367

    hello99
    Member

    SJS: there is a world of difference between AAP saying the procedure is “unnecessary” and doesn’t “warrant having such widespread rates of circumcision”, which is not based on anti-Semitism; and the bills backers who want to criminalize the practice even for religious reasons.

    #1032368

    Health
    Participant

    SJS -“However, I have yet to see really balanced information from either side.”

    That’s because you haven’t looked at the research papers, yet. They are a little bit complicated for the non-medical professional like you, but I think you can manage.

    “What I want to know is what parent here would want their child to go through an uneccesary medical procedure that, while having small benefits, has uneccesary risks associate with it as well?”

    Because a lot of the benefits aren’t small. It could very well save this male’s life later on.

    “Just understand that there are many people who are MEDICALLY opposed to routine circumcision.”

    Just you understand that they are fooling themselves. The benefits to circumcise outweigh any risks innvolved!

    #1032369

    charliehall
    Participant

    “There are halachic opinions the MBP is not needed , nobody says Milah is not needed”

    Bingo.

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