being fleishig during the nine days?

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  • #616035
    ED IT OR
    Participant

    can one use say a fleishig bbq and cook pareve sausages on it during the 9 days, rendering one fleishig …

    #1092556
    sushibagel
    Member

    I know it’s a bit off topic but is it right for stores and restaurants to advertise exciting menus especially for the 9 days as if we’re no more than a great opportunity to widen your food horizons. Doesn’t that defeat the purpose?

    #1092557
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    crazybrit

    If it there is bein Ie residue on bbq then Shouldnt eat during 9 days. IF the bbq is clean then the sausages can be eaten and dont make you fleishigs (though they cant be eaten w/ milk (unless bbq hasnt been used for meat in 24 hours in which case if cooked already (i.e. bidieved) can be eaten with milchigs, though according to most cant cook on bbq lechatchila planning to eat with milchigs)

    sushibagel

    “Doesn’t that defeat the purpose?”

    Depends what you mean by “purpose” The purpose of the stores/restaraunts is to make money in which case advertising does the exact opposite of defeating the purpose! As for the consumer’s purpose once following his/her halacha/minhag and avoiding meat during the prescribed time. Any other purpose is between him and his rabbinical advisor

    #1092558
    sushibagel
    Member

    The purpose of not eating meat during the nine days, which is to remember the churban beis hamikdash, so to that into a benefit isn’t quite right.

    #1092559
    sushibagel
    Member

    I know the importance of advertising I actually work in advertising but some things are more important than making a sale, beside there are other more effective ways of advertising that don’t comprise our values.

    Not respecting the consumers values can actually harm brand image.

    #1092560
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Sushi

    It isnt a benefit, are you saying all fleishig restaraunts should close? Instead of taking advantage of a pareve menu?

    I’m not sure I understand you, what is being advertised?

    If the stores advertised “Come celebrate the churban by enjoying cheese blintzes ” R’L I would agree. But simply adveretising that they are open and have menus available is certianly within theri right.

    How have values been compromised?

    And I’m not sure how not eating meat is being “turned into a benefit” I for one am miserable already (which is the idea, as to why im miserable, its becasue where I work they have prepackeged lunches turkey sandwhiches, grilled chicken egg salad etc, the pareve ones are terrible, so I’m hungry today)

    “Not respecting the consumers values can actually harm brand image” If that were the case they wouldnt do it every year

    #1092561
    DFL
    Member

    @sushibagel

    The reason not to eat meat during the nine days is because wine and meat inherently make a person happier and we are mourning the destruction of the Beis HaMikdash. Even the most exotic dairy foods don’t have the inherent quality of making a person joyful.

    #1092562
    Sam2
    Participant

    I think the Shulchan Aruch says that a Tavshil with Blios of meat is Muttar. This should be the same, no?

    #1092563
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    It is bfeirush halacha that it doesn’t make you fleishig, even if the kli was dirty with some mamashus of fleishig. You’re all amaratzim. Except Sam.

    See Shach YD 89:19.

    I can’t believe you all made me call you amaratzim during the 9 days. How could you be so mean as to be machshil me like that? That’s what I call sinas chinam.

    #1092564
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    sushibagel,

    The purpose of not eating meat during the nine days, which is to remember the churban beis hamikdash, so to that into a benefit isn’t quite right.

    I think the fleishig restaurants’ “9-Days Menus” are intended to be an avoidance of loss, not a benefit. These are very different things.

    #1092565
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    You’re all amaratzim, including popa and Sam. Of course there’s no issur “to be fleishigs” during the nine days. Otherwise how did all you amaratzim eat meat before shkiah on Thursday, and how do all you amaratzim eat a fleishige shalashudis?

    And popa’s the biggest, because he neglected to point out that the Shach says it’s okay if it wasn’t washed thoroughly, mashma that if it wasn’t washed at all, it’s a problem.

    (I’m actually the biggest of them all, but I hide it better by looking things up before I post.)

    #1092566
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Also, you amaratzim should look up the (???? ????? (???”? ?”? (like this amaaretz just did) and tell me if you make the same possible ???? I do, that there could be a case where you’re not allowed to eat something in the nine days even if it wouldn’t make you fleishigs.

    http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=49628&st=&pgnum=51

    #1092567
    sushibagel
    Member

    Advertising a dairy menu is fine, what I meant was advertisers that write things like ” 9 days, try something new every day “

    “come try our amazing dishes you won’t even miss eating meat” or ” come discover the joys of dairy. Can you really not see the difference or are you just being deliberately obtuse?

    #1092568
    sushibagel
    Member

    Ubiquitin: not respecting the consumers values… “if that were the case they wouldn’t do it every year”

    That is hardly the case! Most business owners do not bother doing the minimum research to see if their ads are actually achieving anything and in many cases they are actually doing more harm than good. As someone who deals with advertising on a daily basis I can attest to that.

    #1092569
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    DY

    Thats what I was basing on.

    Though PBA raises a good point

    sushi.

    “Can you really not see the difference?”

    Im not sure what you are saying. If you are on a high darga that you dont want to “miss eating meat” or try “somehting new every day” Mazel tov! I am so proud.

    It is a strech to call that “benefiting” they do the best they can and making parnasa during the nine days isnt assur.

    #1092570
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Ubiquitin, meiheicha teisi the dinim of hamtanah have shaychus to the nine days? I’d like to see a source before making such an assumption.

    #1092571
    147
    Participant

    can one use say a fleishig bbq and cook pareve sausages since parev sausages would be made with soya, and I am allergic to soya, every bite I would take of this concoction, would be a new violation of “vNishmartem Me’od leNafshoseichem” an edict from next week’s Parsha of voEschanan

    #1092572
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    DY

    I didnt make that assumption, PBA did. (I owuld think that if anything waiting would be stricter than nine days since the geder for waiting is moshech taam (see igros moshe i forget the teshuva exact mareh makom, but can find it tommrow on the rema/shach cited by PBA, wheras nine-days is simcha, but I do not have a mekor that say explictly compares the two.)

    I assumed the opposite, that cooked in a dirty grill it shouldnt be eaten in the nine days, which is the way i remebered the halacha in OC.

    #1092573
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Yes, but you also said that PBA had a good point. That’s conjecture unless we find a source to compare the two issues, one from YD and one from OC.

    I actually think (as you said) it’s mashma in MB and Shaar Hatzion that any b’ein would be a problem in the nine days, even if it wouldn’t necessitate waiting six hours (although it might, depending on how you learn the Shach).

    #1092574
    sushibagel
    Member

    Ubiquitin: Never mind. (Although the mechaber does say ?????? ???? ???? ) I’m certainly not on that madreiga.

    Ps. How can you justify having a new like ubiquitin isn’t that kefira?

    #1092575
    Miriam377
    Participant

    I don’t have a choice. I am pretty weak from everything I’ve been through and facing more surgery the day after Tisha B’av so my Rav said I could eat chicken and turkey until Thursday Shkiah.

    #1092576
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    And popa’s the biggest, because he neglected to point out that the Shach says it’s okay if it wasn’t washed thoroughly, mashma that if it wasn’t washed at all, it’s a problem.

    I disagree. I did in fact look it up before I posted to get the citation, and noticed that, and thought of that diyuk, but do not think it is correct. I think the shach is just talking about a normal case where this would happen, since people don’t usually cook in filthy pots.

    Haga atzmecha–do you think the shach would bury that halacha in a diyuk like that? If he wanted to distinguish, he would say that.

    #1092577
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    DY

    It seems mistaver to me, but I do not have a source

    sushi

    “How can you justify having a new like ubiquitin isn’t that kefira?”

    What?

    #1092578
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Popa, I didn’t say you showed your amaratzus by not looking up the Shach, just by not looking up the Mishna Berurah.

    There are two issues here. The OP wanted to know if you can eat pareve cooked on a dirty fleishig grill during the nine days. I think the source for that is ???”? in ??”?, and ?”? in ??”? doesn’t seem to me to be relevant, as the two gezeiros are for different reasons. It’s possible that ???? ????? ???????, but that’s conjecture until I see a source.

    The thread title makes it seem as if it has to do with “being fleishig”, IOW, ????? ?? ????, which leads to the discussion on the ?”?. I think it’s pretty clear that he’s talking about where some cleaning was done, I also don’t think it would necessarily be nogeia in a case where there will be ???? on the food. There are also a few ??????? who argue on the ?”?.

    See ‘?? ????? ?”? ?, especially second wide line.

    http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=15008&st=&pgnum=323

    #1092579
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    DY: I wasn’t saying you could do it during the 9 days. I was just saying it doesn’t make you fleishig.

    #1092580
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Then you owe me an apology for being machshil me to insult you for the wrong thing.

    #1092581
    ED IT OR
    Participant

    K, first of all I wasn’t trying to start a popa daas yochid thread… Next of all outdoor bbq where I live don’t ever get cleaned, they get burned out for a couple minutes before next use.

    My shaaleh was basically can one become fleishig during the 9 days through other means than eating meat, hence my bbq, you don’t eat any actual meat but anything cooked on it becomes fleishig gomur lkol hadaos as it’s proper ingrained with meat at heat.

    #1092582
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    All zeh anu danin if it’s “fleishig gomur lkol hadaos”, and it isn’t, as you describe it. “Proper ingrained with meat at heat” is bliyos at worst, and who knows if by turning it on for a few minutes you haven’t actually kashered it?

    #1092583
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    crazybrit

    You are making a few mistakes

    There is no problem to get fleishigs during the nine days. AS Dy mentioned earlier. The only thing you cant do is eat fleishigs.

    You say regarding your grill that pareve cooked on it is “fleishig gomur lkol hadaos” This is certainly not true. If the grill has no meat on it even without kashering it, pareve cooked on it remains pareve (but cant be eaten WITH milk). If the grill hasnt beesn used in 24 hours not only do you not need to wait after eating your pareve sausage prior to eating cheese,but you can even put cheese on the sausage bedieved. According to most though you cant lechatchila cook the sausages on the grill planning to place cheese (though according to the biur hgra you cna even do that!).

    As popa pointed out even if the grill was dirty it wouldnt make you fleishig (though this couldnt be eaten with cheese)

    #1092584
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Then you owe me an apology for being machshil me to insult you for the wrong thing.

    Ok, I’m sorry, you happy?

    And in the spirit of beis hillel and beis shammai, if you come to my house for a bbq, I’ll tell you which things were cooked in totally dirty pots.

    #1092585
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Apology accepted.

    And in the spirit of beis hillel and beis shammai, if you come to my house for a bbq, I’ll tell you which things were cooked in totally dirty pots.

    If I came to your house, I would expect you to a) serve real meat b) not use pots for a BBQ.

    #1092586
    Student of Torah
    Participant

    do I have to eat fleishig since I love milchig?

    #1092587
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Miriam377, refuah sheleimah.

    #1092588

    Le’anias da’ati the issur isn’t being fleishig rather altz aveilus one should deny himself the hana’ah of eating meat! heyos one doesnt get that hana’ah lechorah it should be mutter. tzarich iyun what are the dinim and gedarim of kdei nosein ta’am

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