- This topic has 46 replies, 20 voices, and was last updated 4 years, 5 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
What is real purpose of sending our sons (and daughters) to Israel? How can it be really worth the investment? I am pro the idea but I would like to hear from the public how you feel about this. Thank you
for the shidduch resume.
The level of Torah is higher in Yeshivos in Eretz Yisroel. That’s usually why boys go there for Yeshiva.
As far as girls, the reason is it is more fun to go overseas than to go locally. There’s no really compelling reason for girls to not go domestically rather than overseas.
What is the level here and there and what can be done to raise the level here? Of course כי מצוין תצא תורה but is there a חיוב to go to a higher level when there are בלי ספק Yeshivas in חוץ לארץ?
I did not go nor did my wife and I don’t feel like I missed anything. The learning is very advanced in the USA. Most people need it for shidduch resume. Most won’t admit it though. We need to convince our children not to look at this as an important factor in choosing who to go out (because it isn’t) with and it will go away.
As an “overseaser” who learnt in Israel I am on the hesitant side on sending away.
I saw a lot of my friends do things that wouldn’t do in there home town and not because their parents would get them in trouble but because they don’t have to be accountable at the weeks ends on what is really happening and how they look as over the phone you cannot really know what is happening.I heard form a bookstore owner in Yeushlaim about a Bochur who came in and ask to charge his (fathers) CC and then he’ll take cash. He was ready for the store owner to take a nice chunk of the amount the main thing he’ll give him cash (as he wanted his parents to see a purchase in a seforim store & not know that he took cash…). What exactly he wanted to do who knows, but it was suspicious so he told him no way!
My humble opinion is, if you aren’t too far from home there is some kind of accountability as חברך חברא אית ליה וחברא דחברך חברא אית ליה & also if the topics does come up (not in a suspicious way he may very well see from his body language something and help out in the issues.
On the other hand there are many cases where the Bochur does grow immensely by changing environments and starting with a clean slate etc. but the above point needs to be address more than most parents think!!
Yochi, I don’t know you so it’s not personal, but why would you think that you would know what you missed? I would think that it may be the ones that went, and got something from there, who would possibly see what you can’t.
The question is too broad. It certainly depends on the individual and depends on where they go. For example, one who learns in Brisk and is interested in that, and is also from the true mevakshim that are looking to really get from what authentic Brisk has to offer, can get something there that they can’t get anywhere else in the world. Additionally, America is driven by materialism which in most cases waters down the purity of our yiddishkeit. Again, depending on who you are and where you go you can spend time associating with and being inspired by a type of yiddishkeit that is mostly not available in the USA. Where one lives simply, eschewing materialism, focused on spiritual growth and living life entirely through yiddishkeit, values uninfluenced by secularism, etc. It can be a real eye opener, and at times life altering.
Additionally, there are great tzaddikim and talmidei chachomim that one can grow from by association.
Girls too, depending on their upbringing, background and where they are holding in life can grow immeasurably from the above.
Granted, many, some would suggest most, do not maximize the opportunity and some would posture that the overall benefit do not justify the risks, from a communal position. But, the OP asked what the purpose is. On an individual basis this may be some ideas.
Lastly, as far as boys are concerned, once a boy is past 4th year b”m he does not really have any serious local options. Just about everyone goes to EY. Furthermore, when he comes back to Lakewood and needs chaburos, chavrusos, etc, depending on where he learnt previously in America, his friends and yeshiva mates from EY may be the difference in a successful experience in BMG or not.
Granted, if we are discussing the system we can discuss creating opportunities locally, but until such a point in time the facts are that for most there is really no other option
“The level of Torah is higher in Yeshivos in Eretz Yisroel”
What is the metric you are using in re your assessment of the level of torah in EY “higher” or “lower” than in chutz la’aretz.. I’ve asked the same question in re the frequent assertions that the “gadolim” of the alte heim were greater than those of today. Seems like a highly subjective assertion given the incredible growth of yeshivos here in the U.S.There’s a significant disparity between the American boys versus girls in how each approaches the vacation/fun aspect of being in Israel for a year or two, and how much time is devoted to such extracurricular activities outside the scope of limud.
Why do you guys refer to it as Eretz Yisroel? Is it somehow less frum to just call it Israel?
Joseph, what studies can you cite that document the ” the significant disparities between boys versus girls ” ?
Or is it your personal opinion?
Ironically, it’s the Boomer generation that started this trend as they had the education and wealth to be able to send their sons and daughters to learn in Israel. I don’t see how their grandchildren ,those having chosen the Lakewood kolel lifestyle, will be able to afford sending 5+ kids to Israel ( tuition, airfare, food etc). Will they have to settle for a “lower” level of learning ( as per Joseph )?The real purpose of sending your kids to eretz Yisrael for a year is because you’re sending them to eretz Yisrael for a year. Our people have only been able to dream for the past 2000 years that they would be able to come here and now you can give your child the chance of living here for close to one year. Every four amos is a mitzvah here and there’s no kotel or kever rochel just one bus ride away, no matter where you are in Brooklyn.
Yes, some of the boys and girls who come to Israel get into trouble. There’s no way to know that they wouldn’t get into the trouble if they stayed in the US but I understand that some parents are nervous. (Also, if some kids have it in their system, it could be good for them to get it out before they get married. )
There is much less materialism here. Even the people who are fancy here, can’t indulge as much as they would in the US. It’s nice for the kids to see that they can do with less and to see that people are willing to live with less in order to be here. It’s also beneficial to your children to see all different types of Jews and to spend time with other families and learn from them.
About girls specifically, the girls spend 12 years in school just learning for the sake of good grades and they are probably going to spend the first few years of marriage working like a dog so their husband’s can learn in kollel. The least they deserve is one year dedicated to their spiritual growth with all the hashkafa classes that their 12 years of BY didn’t offer them. Once they get married and have kids, there will be no time for trips so this is hopefully their last chance at exploring the world and eretz yisrael and at being able to enjoy themselves.
There is also the undertone of עסקנות and אחריות which you have in EY. There are demos and protests etc. Not so here. Years ago there were while the תלמידים of Reb Reuven and Rav Schorr himself would make public מחאות. Young people learn the public aspects of Torah in EY davka.
Yabia Omer — Eretz Yisroel is definitely frummer. It negates the State of Israel and Sephardi pronunciation all at once.
Naftush-2 said “Eretz Yisroel is definitely frummer. It negates the State of Israel and Sephardi pronunciation all at once.”
What exactly is frummer about negating Sephardi pronunciation?
Why do you guys refer to it as israel? Is it somehow less cool to just call it eretz yisrael?
But I think Sephardic pronunciation is more correct thus frummer. Why is there an “o” sound? Makes no sense. Kamatz SOMETIMES makes o but not always.
yabia Omer: Prayer book or siddur? chumash or bible? David or Dovid? Moses or Moshe?
“But I think Sephardic pronunciation is more correct thus frummer. Why is there an “o” sound? Makes no sense. Kamatz SOMETIMES makes o but not always. ”
I don’t call Mexico mekhicoh. It’s more correct but I also doubt you do.
I think the biggest reason for both boys and girls is for them to experience the types of families who live on a whole different existence than those in the US. The yiras shomayim and idealism is something that you can only absorb by living with such people for an extended period of time, going to their house for shabbos etc. It is immersion in that environment which can have life-changing effects (although it is not automatic). There are no metrics for what I am talking about. Either you get it or you don’t.
The second-biggest reason to experience E”Y not as a tourist but as someone living there. It’s the kind of thing you can do by staying in a hotel for 10 days and going on a tour bus.
Obviously one needs to understand where your kid is holding to determine if the risks are worth the possible reward. Giving some kids independence without supervision can be negative.
The level of learning in EY is the same as anywhere else.
For girls though – If you want to REALLY be a part-time shaitel macher and food blogger, you’ll only get the training you need in EY. Yes, it’s worth the $35,000 per year for seminary.
The thing is, Israel is an actual country in the world. Whether you agree with “Zionism” or not, it’s a country. It would be like if your son learned in Yeshiva in Rome and you said “my son’s learning in Edom”. You wouldn’t say that. You’d say Italy like a normal person. Hu Hadin with Israel.
“The thing is, Israel is an actual country in the world. Whether you agree with “Zionism” or not, it’s a country.”
The funny thing is that I am pretty zionist. I’m closer to being a Zionist than I am to being a chareidi. That being said, Israel isn’t the correct name either. I know Im not teaching you anything new but Israel is actually an English way of saying Yisrael which isn’t either the name of the country. The name of the country is Medinat Yisrael.
The Ultra Orthodox aren’t sending their kids to Israel because they want their kids to explore the world. If that were the reason, then any country would be fine. They send their kids to Israel because it is the land that God promised our forefathers and because when you travel the land, you are traveling the land of our people. The reason Israel is special is because it is eretz Yisrael. Even the secular Zionists know that eretz Yisrael is the land of our heritage.
I am not denying the fact that there is a concept of Eretz Israel. Of course the Land, which transcends any political boundaries, is holy. What I am saying is what is so wrong with simply saying “my son learns in Israel” or “I just cam back from a trip to Israel”?
The rabbeim and teachers (for Sem) in American are amazing. In EY it is often on a different level alltogether.
That said, be carefull that you send to the right program, no matter where they are. I have seen some seminaries (not saying where) that were run as money factories with little attention paid to the young women beyond enforcing strict rules. As a parent, this is so disappointing, considering what amazing options there are out there.
That said, the ability to live on another plain for a year or two, to live in a culture that values torah in a different way is special. The ability to daven and experience yahadus on a different level, to experience a shabbos in Tsfat with a family that has nothing, but invites the whole world over anyway, to experience Bnei Brak, to experience a shabbos with the amazing communities of Olim in (Ramat and) Bet Shemesh, to experience a shabbos in a yishuv where people are moser nefesh for yishuv ha’aretz, these are not things you get in NY of NJ. There is nothing wrong with the US or the UK. But EY is ours. It’s where we belong. And sending your teens here for a year or three sends a message about what matters most. Before we go to college, before we get married, we orient ourselves towards who we really should strive to be, and what kind of lives we want to live. We give our young men and women a choice, we send them off, we show them our trust and let them discover themselves in a fairly safe and growth driven environment. What a beautiful commitment to our children.
I think the main question here is whether or not someone should go through all the effort, time, money, and all that goes along with this, if we see so many cases where we get very discouraged by the possible outcome for better or for worse. I actually read an article a few weeks ago in The Lakewood Shopper where they interviewed Rabbi Shmuli Kahan from Yerushalayim who I never met but I had a neighbor who learned by him a few years ago so thats how it caught my eye and he put it down very well. I even saved it. He said that “By being in a proper yeshiva atmosphere, and for the girls as well being in a proper seminary setting, will allow the students to feel that they are in a new “home away from home”. Now I know for sure that many bochrim and girls get that sense of being so far from home they cant properly settle their feelings in the way that can help them grow and make this time of year the most important part of their future lives. Then he wrote the key factor which I think might help this ever lasting issue that has always been a huge topic even when I was there 23 years ago. He wrote that “if the parents trust the son, and the son trusts the yeshiva, and the yeshiva trusts the parents to partner with them, everyone can be confident that the bochur will be learning and growing and will be meeting his expectations”. Now I really like how he put it down so clearly that all the problems that are seeing is really coming us by ourselves. If we all step up to the plate and be proper parents and educators and trust each other and ourselves, the kids will follow through. I think we are the ones that need some maturing to do and well be sure to have a lot of nachas from all our children and all of klal yisrael. We should be zoche to the geula sheleima bimheira biyameinu amen
“What I am saying is what is so wrong with simply saying “my son learns in Israel” or “I just cam back from a trip to Israel”?”
I think many people do use eretz Yisrael or Israel interchangeably, depending on the context. I do and so do most people I know.
I don’t know why it offends you if people like calling it that. People will title many things by terms that feel more right to them. For example, when some people refer to their mother they’ll say “my mom” whereas others will say “my mother”. Its just a matter of preference. One may be more grammatical but in casual conversation, neither is actually better or worse.
YA: Nothing is “wrong” with saying Israel. I was taught many years ago to refer to it as Eretz Yisroel. Why does it bother you so much how I refer to it?
Some say they are going to learn Kodshim. Reb Yoshe Ber’s son Reb Chaim went to learn by his great uncle Reb Velvel. When Reb Michel Feinstein came from the Mir you could learn Taharos on the LES. The Satmar Rov sent his chasidim to YU to hear Toyre from Reb Yoshe Ber. Rav Charlop went to learn by Reb Yaakov Moshe his grandfather. One of the Shatzkes family went to EY as well. So it is the opportunity to hear shiurim and be in the מחיצה of רבנים of another caliber.
It does not bother me to call it Eretz Israel. It just seems that many people do it bedavka as though it is more “religious”.
Emes: HOW do “children get the most out of this time period in ERETZ YISRAEL”?
I think everyone agrees that the Torah level in Israel is higher than America. America is very parve.
With computer assisted learning, meaning that all ספרים are available to everyone, and all Yeshivas learning the same Brisker Toyreh and same דרך הלימוד it does not seem possible that there are any differences and levels. Maybe חפץ חיים is different maybe not.
Who says ALL yeshivas learn in the so-called “Brisk” style? That’s a flat out fallacy.
Emes, how does a girl from the US grow in Eretz Yisroel for a year more than in America? (Without using vague concepts, please be specific.)
If Joseph is a Satmar, then no matter what anyone says about Israel won’t be good enough to convince him.
Joseph isn’t Satmar; but what’s that have anything to do with this discussion?
Some people don’t have suitable 1st/2nd year Yeshivas in America.
Don’t send your boys to yeshiva in Israel.
edited – there is a point where cynicism and opinion morph into hate and motzei shem ra – 29
There are many ways to serve Hashem.
YO
“America is very parve.”
whoa. what are you some kind of religious fanatic? Why can’t you say neutral or lukewarm, depending what you are trying to convey
Haha. It’s called know your audience Ubq
BTW the נסיון of learning in ארצנו הקדושה is not a new שאילה.Years ago there was an opportunity to go back to Europe to learn for example in the Mir or by Reb Baruch Ber in Kamenitz Litovsk. Harav Scheinberg went to the Mir. Harav Schorr went back to Kletzk. Alright, they were already major major תלמידי חכמים but still they went. The Meitcheter was in America. Reb Shimon Shkop also came and gave shiurim in America. Sorry cant be מאריך .
We’re heard good arguments in favor of sending boys to Eretz Yisroel, i.e. the learning is on a higher level than in America etc. Some may agree and some may disagree.
But we haven’t heard any arguments why to send girls to EY rather than domestic Seminary, other than Israel is more fun and exciting. Is there anything more than that or is that basically why everyone who sends girls to Israel does so rather than locally?
YA: Sorry YA but IMHO it’s called hypocrisy.
Dear 29
I respect your opinion and the right to edit as you see fit.
I’ll just add that the truth hurts, and I thought it needed to be said without pulling punches.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.