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you need to measure since the dressing room doesn’t have a staircase and the clothing store isn’t windy and doesn’t have a car in it. so you must estimate how many inches below the knee (the rule of thumb is 4 inches below the knee) the skirt must be that will suffice to cover the knees from all positions and all angles at all times in all conditions.
“A woman is her own person. She should only marry if its what she wants to do. There is nothing radical about that. “
So who said that, was radical?
You did.
No I did not, either you can’t read, or you enjoy making up things people never said.
You know, I think you guys totally missed my point. If you are so passionate SJS, why don’t you do something? What is the point of posting on Yeshiva World News? TO vent? If you have a passion, help klal yisrael instead of complain in a meaningless forum. You guys are doing nothing to help the problem, but it seems that you DO care. So why not find a constructive way of channeling that?
Ramateshkolian: I think that ensuring a girl’s success in school, both socially and academically, can go a long way toward her dressing appropriately.
Pashuteh Yid 2.0 – where does Reb Moshe zatzal discuss hilchos tznius?
Ramateshkolian – when mothers are tznuot in their hanahagos, as well as in their dress, when their middos are more toward anivas and less toward brazenness, this makes a powerful effect on a daughter. Further, when a mother focuses on her child’s pnimius when they are young and as they grow, the chitzonius comes more naturally, because it is the natural netiya of a child to want to grow up and be a tznua, because it is a mitzvah that HKBH was metzave to every part of a woman’s body (midrash Breishis). In a psychological note, she will want to grow up to be like her mother.
However, once a child is exposed to outside influences in what she perceives as acceptable models such as secular media which are filled with models that lure us away from the derech of Torah, she becomes confused. In general, when these influences are not given credence in the home, the child gets the message of ikar/tafel, and can maintain the standard of the home. However, in today’s world where children from even the most upgehiten home are exposed, even this is not a guarantee. However, it is critical that these messages come from the home, schools can only support the messages of the home. It is my experience that even if the schools mess up with their messages, kids eventually grow up to adopt the standards of the home, as long as the relationship with the parents are intact.
ir, I totaly agree with you.
SJS and so right, I’m 5’3 and would look atrocias in skirts that are 4″ below the knee. My skirts are 2.5″-3″ inches from under the cap of my knee. Total skirt legnth is 25.5″-26″ from the waist. Now since such a length does NOT COVER THE KNEE when wearing a straight skirt, I don’t wear straight skirts unless it has pleat(s) starting from the hip area. I generally wear a-line skirts. I do wear a straight skirt if it is loose enough – in other words a semi straight skirt that has enough fabric to cover the knee when sitting (I try it out to make sure it’s fine).
Also, I don’t buy gathered skirts as it becomes a balloon in the wind and uncovers the knee. I try on the skirts in a sitting position too, before I wear them, to make sure it sufficiently covers the knee.
So here’s my take on this issue. Rulers are important, but so is common sense.
It’s not just the clothing that needs to be tzniusdig, but the actions of a woman need to be tzniusdig as well. In other words, if the penimius is b’tznius, then you automatically know how to look b’tznius even if you enjoy being fashionable.
Its also important to remember that testing it sitting down will not show you how long it must be, since it must be longer than covering you just when sitting down. It goes higher than the knee (even more than when sitting) when you get into a car, walk upstairs, walk on a windy day, and other normal everyday situations that require the skirt to be longer than simply covering your knees when sitting.
Having their own thoughts and feelings is one thing.
Being so ‘independent’ so as to not wnat to marry or in any other way start following the Radical feminist anti male anti cohesive family….Agenda, is a totally different thing.
Bolded mine. You equated not wanting to marry with the radical feminist agenda.
Its ok to thin that way, but at least be honest about it.
BS”D
Just as an interesting (and Nogayah) point (and to correct a misquote, as this is not my style):
The gemorah says “Barasi Yetzer Hara, Barasi Torah Tavlin” i.e., Learning Torah is the #1 method to avoid the Yetzer Hara.
The Gra points out that this does not apply to women, who do not have the same mitzva of Limud Torah (which acts in supernatural ways due to its mitzva power). He says instead that the #1 method to avoid the Yetzer Hara for women is to be Tzanua.
(My understanding): The antithesis of Tznius is to stand out (either for good or for bad). When one doesn’t feel the need to stand out, and can be in the background, it removes many of the causes of Avairos. (e.g.) Why say Lashon Hara if you don’t need (or want) anyone to pay attention to you?
The same idea applies to clothing. Don’t try to stand out and have people look at you (men or women), you will avoid Kinna (of you onto others and vice versa), Taava (of yourself onto others) and Kavvod (that you are the “best dressed”, more designer, or “most tznius”), which are all C’V “Motze Es HaAdam Min HaOlam”.
Bezras Hashem may we all (men and women) Zoche to be Tzanua, as the Pasuk says “Hatzeyna Leches Im Hashem Elokecha”.
When a skirt covers the knee when sitting, it will also cover the knee when walking up the steps. And regarding getting into a car, it’s not the extra inch in that will cover the knee (obviously, I’m talking only about the legnth of skirts that cover the knee when sitting), but the width of the skirt is what makes a difference.
So too, on a windy day, it’s not the extra inch that makes a difference, but the cut (gathered cut) and weight (lighter fabrics pick up easily) of the fabric.
That’s why I say, you can’t be too technical, you need some common sense.
Ramat, who says I am not doing anything outside of YWN? And who says someone won’t read this post and think “that is a great way to instill tznius in my children without being too over the top.”
I’m starting with my sons. I am teaching them to respect women as people rather than objects. Respect that they have thoughts, feelings, ideas etc that are not related to being a wife and mother. I am trying to give them a strong role model as a woman, and DH is giving them a strong role model as a man.
I speak to my nieces about this topic. Some of them are struggling with their teenage years. Sometimes, its not about telling them to cover their body parts as it is to get them to start to respect their body and move towards tznius.
“Having their own thoughts and feelings is one thing.
Being so ‘independent’ so as to not wnat to marry or in any other way start following the Radical feminist anti male anti cohesive family….Agenda, is a totally different thing.
Bolded mine. You equated not wanting to marry with the radical feminist agenda.
Its ok to thin that way, but at least be honest about it.”;;;;;;;;;;
#1 You did not just talk about marriage, you also said that I said “having thoughts of her own” was wrong and I never said that.
#2 Moses said that the children were to guarantors of the Torah.
If Jews don’t marry they don’t have Children to follow Torah so there is something wrong with the average woman (or man) saying “I don’t feel like marrying, who cares about the next generation”?
#3 You say here there is nothingw rong with what
I said and just to be honest about it.
How about YOU being honest about it?
If you resally thought there was nothing wrong with it you would not have criticised me.
So what were YOU saying about honesty?
:::”I’m starting with my sons. I am teaching them to respect women as people rather than objects.”;;;
As if that is all they would see them as, otherwise.
These are teh exact same words uszed by radical feminists when they teach that girls are BETTER then boys and dope them up in public school with Ritalin to keep them from learning properly just so the girls ccan get ahead of them in learning (public school subjects) and in life.
“Respect that they have thoughts, feelings, ideas etc that are not related to being a wife and mother.”
Like what exactly?
As fashion models?
” I am trying to give them a strong role model as a woman,”
What exactly is that if not as a wife and mother?
“and DH is giving them a strong role model as a man.”
What kind of ‘man’?
One who obeys his wife?
Hereorthere, calm down. It’s not good for your blood pressure.
I think you’re comment of Ritalin given for boys so that girls can get ahead is completely off-base.
Clearheaded, when the feminist agenda (or any other aspect of the liberal agenda) infiltrates the Torah community, it ios a serious danger, just like the Hellenists and Sadducies and “Enlightenment” Movement, of the 1800’s were and they all caused serious damage and sent many people off on an anti Torah path.
Also I have heard personally from parents and from doctors who have given personal and expert opinions about how bad Ritalin is in public school and how teachers have called up parents and personally told them that they had better start doping up their boys, or they could not come back to school.
Doctors have publically stated, that Ritalin affects the same brain centers, that Cocaine does.
Combine that with the fact that girls are not doped up with Ritalin (certainly nowhere near the rate, that boys are, if they are AT ALL)and the fact that because of this and also sexism against boys; Girls are entering college at 3 times the rate that boys are, plus all the media constantly bashing and putting boys and men, especially fathers, down all the time, and constantly promoting the “superior UBERwoman” who is always better then any man, in advertisements and in TV and movies and magazines etc….
To clarify I personally heard these parents and doctors (and kids also) say these things and talk about the liberal feminist agendas being pushed in public schools.
Not that they talked to me privately and personally, I just heard them when they talked, in broadcasts and interviews.
Those who visit Kollel communities and see the mode of dress on the street and at Simchos, and who speak to Shadchanim and hear what a greater percentage of learners are stipulating in potential girls, find that what should be, isnt what is.
The sad but true joke is that when Tznius rallies are held, those who are the “4 inch below the knee” crowd come, while the ones who could use improvement, dont bother coming.
SJSinNYC, 1)Ramoh paskens that not only men have an obligation to get married, but also women, albeit, for a different reason.
2)I am sorry to tell you, but a lot of your shitos appear to be straight from the feminist idealogy — we need, however, to follow The Hashkofos HaTorah.
GITGEZUGT- that is unfortunately so true!
clearheaded- for the skirt to cover your knees while getting into a car or walking on a windy day the skirt needs to be longer than if it just covers the knee when sitting down. Even when sitting down unfortunately you see so many girls needing to keep pulling their skirt down. Usually by time they pull it down it is because men were passing by and they were too late. This is so not right. The skirt needs to be long enough in the first place that they shouldn’t have to ever be pulling it to properly cover their knees.
hereorthere, I agree with you that Ritalin is poisen, but I think that it is prescribed more for boys because they are more active than girls and the teachers don’t have patience to discipline them. As far as the goyishe world having an agenda of promoting girls over boys, that could very well be as I see minorities are promoted over white people and usually this liberal agenda goes hand in hand with promoting women over men.
I think the feminist agenda is adopted by women when they feel they are looked upon as mere objects. That’s why in the heimishe circles where women are respected as people women don’t need to be feminists to feel validated. However, at the rate it’s going in some frum circles where there is too much focus on looks when it comes time for shidduchim, I’m afraid girls will start looking for feminist ideals if they start feeling invaladed as individuals.
so right, I don’t know about you, but the way I do it works for me. Someone might be wearing straight skirts that ride up when sitting down. I make sure that my skirts are tzniusdig when walking up stairs and sitting into a car and with the wind blowing.
“What exactly is that if not as a wife and mother?” (to be a good role model as a woman)
Apparently not, as so many of the women who SHOULD be role models at home for their children, are forced out into the work force by a society that teaches them that the ideal is for THEM to support their families while their husbands sit in Kollel. You cannot have it both ways. And I have seen the difference in the children raised by babysitters versus those whose mothers put their complete hishtadlus into the raising of their babies.
clearheaded- Baruch Hashem! We have to encourage more of our sisters to be proactive and attentive to this vital area of insuring that when purchasing and tailoring their skirts, it covers their knees regardless of their positions. This area is very lacking unfortunately in public much too often.
oomis1105, thank you for saying that. I’m a stay at home mom now, not because we don’t need the money and not because I like being home, but because this is the right thing for me to do. Truthfully,it is intellectually stifling for me, but my shitta is you do what you have to, not what you want to.
I have seen a huge difference with every child the longer I kept them home. My youngest, who is now two years old, has never gone to a babysitter until a week ago and was there for two hours. Boy, do I see a diffence between this child and the others I sent out to babysitters four weeks after they were born, because I was working.
I have to say though, that I do need to get some space now that my son is two years old so I started sending him to a babysitter for a few hours a week.
Yes. Women and girls come in all shapes and sizes, so it’s important to teach them what needs to be covered in all situations and from there they use their “fifte shilchan urach” (loose translation the shilchun aruch of common sense.)
Unfortunately, missing from our generation is a feeling of busha, hence the focus is only on technicalities. Women, who dress very b’tznius can unknowingly talk very loud and act improper. I’ve once went shopping with someone I didn’t know so well. She was dressed yunchy (I don’t know the translation for this word and can’t find a good English word that would suffice). I showed her a dress I liked which had a nice shape. She told me that it’s fitted and she wouldn’t wear that(now that’s a seperate tznius issue. A dress can have a nice shape to fit one well, but cannot be tight). And yet, for all her tznius in dress, she was very loud and unrefined. Her actions repulsed me a little. Dress is not the only thing to focus on. The way a bas Yisroel bahaves is very important too.
Clearheaded; The problem is not that the boys “need discipline”, that is just an excuse they use to dope them up.
Boys are often more physically active and learn best by actually doing something (like working out a problem themselves and getting guidence only when they get stuck on one part and then still working it out themselves under guidence and again on their own, once they get over the part they were stuck on) while girls often learn best, by sitting and listening to a lecture.
The feminists running the Teachers Union, run the classes so that they are geared toward how girls learn best and when the boys are not being taught and just have sit there in a room geared toward the other gender, they get figity.
Then they are ‘called’ “discipline problems” and doped up instead of being taught properly.
If I showed you the evidence that this is done by design and is part of a plan to get women into all positions of power and eventually subjugate all men, you’d be stunned at how massive and factual and undeniable it is.
The problem is that some of the best sources of proof would for many reasons not be very appropriate for the WYN website.
But as I said you can see much of the evidence in todays politics and in the media like how commercials on radio and TV bash men all the time and always make men look very stupid while the women are always portrayed as being so much smarter and better in every way.
It is no ‘coincidence’ that in both business and in politics they go out of their way to hire or recruit, women over men even in cases where the men are far more qualified and experienced then any women seeking the particular position.
Company execs have been saying lately they would rather hire an inexperienced unqualified woman then face a discrimination lawsuit.
At least I recently read an online article (or radio news report, one or the other) where one CEO said something along those lines and he said it publically because it seems from other related news, and political discussions, to be common these days for people (including CEO’s) to have such a view.
The liberals have a stranglehold on society at all levels, and they are never going to let go. R’L’
As for looks being focused on in the heimish community; That has always been that way to at least some extent and it goes both ways with girls increasingly demanding the boys be successful
and/or “big learners”, for example.
I think feminism is creeping in, simply because it is not being guarded against, nearly as strongly, as it should be.
I agree with you that we need to increase educating girls to have more busha. The lack of busha is a large reason of the too prevalent lack of tznius we see often. I am of the opinion that often the same people who don’t dress properly also are too loud and act improper in public. We need to stress both areas, tznius and busha, for a bas yisroel and teaching one should not detract from teaching the other.
Another point I think is worth mentioning, upon observation of the same girls who are right out of high school and seminary, and then again 5 years later, if they’re still single, very often their Tznius has deteriorated greatly.
Bec. of hardship in finding Shidduchim, their single status causes them great unhappiness and dissatisfaction and often a downturn in their level of Bitachon, combined with being unmarried and in the secular world, causing a decline in their Tznius.
GITGEZUGT; I have heard that unmarried women often feel left out as they see their friends marry.
As they do so they tend to associate with their married friends and singles are not invited to so many get togethers anymore or included in some activities that the married friends decide to do together.
If there was some kind of place for such singles to get together, not just for marriage purposes but just to have others in their siatuation to a talk to and associate with, so they do not feel so alone and left out, it might help with the problems you mentioned in your last post.
Also perhaps the married ones might go more out of their way to let their friends know they haven’t forgotten about them and still consider them their friends and try and include them more in their activities and socializing.
Also Shiurim, perhaps something informal without the usual pressure of a class or lecture, perhaps more of an open discussion type of gathering, not to commiserate or complain, but to have something to look forward to, to learn and ask questions and forget about the pressures of life for awhile; Where such singles can get together and learn more about bitachon, might help.
hereorthere, I know of one such Rebbetzin who caters to older single girls. She gives Shiurim regularly and takes them on trips. While that has its value, what the girls really need are husbands, in order to live the lives they want and live up to the expectations in our society. Thats offering someone a bandaid, when they really need surgery.
I just want to amend something I’ve posted yesterday. Semi-straight skirts fall in the same catefory as straight skirts and do need at least 4″ from under the knee cap to cover the knee, not only when sitting but when moving around while sitting.
Straight and semi-straight skirts can ride up slightly (or a lot-depending on the skirt and figure)when sitting, while skirts that have enough fabric in the width, do not ride up and therefore for me (everyone needs to check it out for themselves) 2.5-3″ of skirt lenghth from under the knee, sufficiently covers the knee area.
This thread has made me more tznius concious than I’ve been. I think writing about it, makes one become more observant in this area. I think that if the schools would require of their students one essay a year with a topic and/or discussion such as “why tznius is important to me” or “how did my perception of tznius change within the course of a year” it would get girls a chance to explore the topic of tznius how it pertains to them and to think about tznius in a constructive manner.
*Above emphasis added by mod.
hereorthere, Do you think women are JUST wives and mothers? Are men JUST husbands and fathers? I don’t know about you, but in addition to me being a wife and mother, I am also a daughter, grandaughter, aunt, neice, friend, engineer, shul committee member, knitter, reader, bargain shopper, have a thirst for learning random subjects, love hiking and traveling, happy person with many other traits and thoughts and opinions. And I make a really great cheesecake 🙂
Did I ever say my husband “obeys” me? He is also a unique individual with thoughts and feelings and we are married. I don’t know about you, but my idea of marriage is blended two peoples lives to build a cohesive unit, often requiring compromise from both sides. We love, support, help, care for each other. We don’t demand, obligate, force or coerce each other to do what the other one wants. [to clarify, all these things within the halachic framework – we follow our rav for halachic shailas]
I don’t believe women are better than men. I don’t believe men are better than women. I think we were created differently and those differences enhance our coexistance rather than detract if we let it. But yes, I must be a feminist because I think that women working the same job as men should get equal pay (insert eye roll here).
I’m not sure what I am saying that is against halacha or hashkafa. Wouldn’t you call a society where women are the breadwinners and have much more secular education a feminist society?
MDD, can you cite the Rama? I would like to learn it inside. I always thought that women are NOT obligated to get married because doing so would obligate them to have children, and that women are NOT obligated to have children because it puts them in a makom sakana. Anyway, I would love to look it up.
Oh and hereorthere, yes, ritalin is overused because schools cannot often handle overactive kids disrupting the classroom. They are understaffed. But your thoughts on it “pushing the liberal womens agenda” shows how little you really know about feminism.
EDITED
Ritalin (and it’s newer counterparts) is certainly tremendously overused, but it is because of desperation combined with ignorance. There is no conspiracy to dope anyone up, by feminists or others.
SJS, I didn’t know you knit! Can I put in a request? Please?
What kind of ‘man’?
One who obeys his wife?
Avraham Avinu
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The Wolf
FWIW, in my home, neither my wife nor I “obey” the other.
We work together on important issues regarding the household. Neither of us would even dream of issuing “orders” to the other. And I can’t imagine a marriage where such a thing did happen.
The Wolf
Sure Squeak, what do you want? You realize it means you need to reveal yourself to me though.
SJSinNYC
“hereorthere, Do you think women are JUST wives and mothers? Are men JUST husbands and fathers? I don’t know about you, but in addition to me being a wife and mother, I am also a daughter, grandaughter, aunt, neice, friend, engineer, shul committee member, knitter, reader, bargain shopper, have a thirst for learning random subjects, love hiking and traveling, happy person with many other traits and thoughts and opinions. And I make a really great cheesecake :-)”
So how is any of this a ‘totally separate entity FROM being a wife and mother?”
If any of this is more important then being a wife and mother I’d like to see the Psakin by Gdolim that supports such an idea.
I never said you husband obeys you I ASKED you questions, which you still haven’t answered.
You don’t believe women are better then men?
Then how come on a tznuis thread you admitted you browbeat your own boys as mysoginists who “only see women as objects”?
“I’m not sure what I am saying that is against halacha or hashkafa. Wouldn’t you call a society where women are the breadwinners and have much more secular education a feminist society?”
Not if both the women and men had the same attitudes and hashkofas as Rabbi Akivah’s wifge and of Rabbi Akivah, respectively (as opposed to the anti Torah attitudes about it so prevelent these days like then Loshon Hara that boys supposedly see women “only as objects” ).
“Oh and hereorthere, yes, ritalin is overused because schools cannot often handle overactive kids disrupting the classroom.”
So all those people with FIRST hand experience who say otherwise are all liars, huh?
“:They are understaffed. But your thoughts on it “pushing the liberal womens agenda” shows how little you really know about feminism.”
Your unsubstantiated claim about what I supposedly “don’t know”
is self evident as not true.
Wolf how about a translation or at least tell us which chapter and verse?
SJSinNYC, the Ramoh is in Even HaEzer Siman 1, Seef 13. Kitzur Shulchan Aruch paskens like that le’Halacha in 145:5.
Another ma’amar Chazal for you to explore: “Ein l’ha isha ksheira ele mi she osa r’tson ba’ala”. Obviously, there are also limitations to this ma’amar.
BS”D:
MDD:
I’m not interested in the argument (there is a Din of “Lasheves Yitzra” which applies to women (for another thread)), but you are not being honest and are misdirecting. The Rama you quote brings a Yesh Omrim that a woman should not be without a husband due to Chashad. If it doesn’t apply to all the single women out there (to our shame), it doesn’t apply to someone who decides not to get married.
Besides, at best the Din is a Gezairah, not an “obligation”.
Wolf how about a translation or at least tell us which chapter and verse?
My apologies. Genesis 21:12. God tells Avraham to listen to Sarah (despite his reservations) regarding the explusion of Ishmael and Hagar from the home.
This verse has been used to teach that regarding domestic affairs the husband should listen to his wife.
The Wolf
Gavra, it is a halacha in S.A. and in Kitsur S.A. I do not know where you get your hilukim from — it obligatory and applies to all women.
And I am not trying to mislead anyone!
So how is any of this a ‘totally separate entity FROM being a wife and mother?
You don’t see how parts of me (for example being an engineer) are totally seperate from being a wife and mother? I was going for my engineering degree before I met my husband. I was working as an engineer well before I had children. Being an engineer is a big part of who I am – it encompasses my logical, math oriented personality. It is a big reflection of who I am. Am I saying being an engineer is more impportant than keeping halacha? No way, but I never made that claim. You seem to be extrapolating based on what you think my views are, not on what I am saying.
What kind of role model is my husband? He is a warm, kind, wonderful man. He is a logical, smart, dedicated person (both in halacha, learning, davening, as well as to people). He has a variety of interests that have nothing to do with being a father or son. He also has no problem doing housework, cooking and tending to the children. My husband shows his children love, warmth and understanding. He can also show them how to build, install, take apart and do various “manly” power tool kind of things. Basically, he has many different aspects to his personality that don’t have anything to do with being a husband and father. Those traits and thoughts and opinions CARRY OVER into being a husband and father. I never realized people believed that one aspect defines who you are.
No, I don’t believe women are better than men. I don’t “browbeat my boys as mysoginists who only see women as objects.” My sons are 2 and 8 months LOL. I am preemptively teaching them to respect women so that they DON’T end up viewing women as objects.
Thank you MDD and GAW. I’m going to look into that.
LOL Wolf!
EDITED
My sons are 2 and 8 months LOL
I apologize in advance, but I can’t resist.
Boy your kids are close in age. Only 6 months apart!
I have heard more than once of the idea that there as something wrong with someone being to identified as who they are based on what they do for work.
I’m not asking to be judged, I’m saying its a part of who I am. I didn’t say its necessarily positive or negative, just an aspect of myself.
I just want to amend something I’ve posted yesterday. Semi-straight skirts fall in the same catefory as straight skirts and do need at least 4″ from under the knee cap to cover the knee, not only when sitting but when moving around while sitting.
Straight and semi-straight skirts can ride up slightly (or a lot-depending on the skirt and figure)when sitting, while skirts that have enough fabric in the width, do not ride up and therefore for me (everyone needs to check it out for themselves) 2.5-3″ of skirt lenghth from under the knee, sufficiently covers the knee area.
This thread has made me more tznius concious than I’ve been. I think writing about it, makes one become more observant in this area. I think that if the schools would require of their students one essay a year with a topic and/or discussion such as “why tznius is important to me” or “how did my perception of tznius change within the course of a year” it would get girls a chance to explore the topic of tznius how it pertains to them and to think about tznius in a constructive manner.
clearheaded- I think that would be a great idea.
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