- This topic has 220 replies, 43 voices, and was last updated 6 years, 7 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
We have gotten so far from the original concept and purpose. It originated under Roman rule because of the fate that awaited Jews in Roman courts. Mesira was particularly needed on Czarist Russia . Russian courts were biased against Jews while beis dins had the authority to render and enforce their decisions..
Flash forward to the 21st century. Our court systems great everyone the same ( good bad and indifferent ) and beis dins in the US are largely powerless.Mesorah, on the other hand has morphed into a tool to suppress accusations and to get away with stuff. Accusations of mesirah have been infamously used to stall everything from accusationss of spousal abuse and child molestation to accusations of zoning and construction violations.By coincidence, a Jan 2014 email from Jona Rechnitz to Mayor De Blasio was released on Friday. It states that when Menachem Stark was kidnapped, insteadof calling the cops, the Shomrim were notified and they waited two hours to call the NYPD. Stark was possibly still alive at this point and the cops might have saved him had they been notified promptly
Hello everyone from the holy city of Jerusalem! I have a very special keyboard, the Semicha Keyboard TM. Any body who uses it automatically has Semicha directly from the heiligeh Moshe Rabeinu zatzal. Just a few taps and you’re already on the 50th realm of Torah understanding and giving psak.
Please contact me for purchase there are only 120 keyboards left.Joseph:
Do you believe that there is any case that would warrant calling the cops on a frum neighbor (or beighbor)? If so, what would that case be?LC/Syag:
Do you believe that there is an issue of mesira? When do you think that issue would apply? If I’m in the neighborhood playground and I hear a rumor that Mrs X is abusing her husband, do you think I should immediately call the cops?Wow, how condescending. Is this supposed to be an intellectual insult or a hashkofik one? How about i ask you instead; do you believe there’s something called kashrus? If you’re hungry does it still apply? If you have good reason to be pretty certain the mashgiach is a fraud do you close your eyes and call it mesira?
Not sure what planet your question fell from but it sure is a head scratcher(and not the first time you’ve pulled that on me either)LC: there was no proof at that time that he was kidnapped, so police wouldn’t have done anything until 24 hours or whatever the protocol is for missing adults.
Only after footage was obtained BY SHOMRIM showing the kidnapping, was police involved IIRC. And don’t think the police would have gotten to the footage quicker than Shomrim, they are notoriously slow in investigating wild goose chases, which is what it would have seemed to them at that point. Basically, the phone call to Shomrim was, my husband (or brother-in-law, I don’t recall who made the actual call) should have been home 1/2 an hour ago to go with me to a Simcha, and he’s not here yet, and I can’t reach him.
Do you really fancy the NYPD rushing over to investigate, or the dispatcher responding “lady, calm down, he’s not the first husband that’s late, just be patient and give him some space.”
Shomrim actually did the leg work at record speed, yet the haters love to spew their nonsense.
This one isn’t so straightforward. Not a liberal or conservative thing, either.
First, though, if one calls the police in the Medina Shel Chesed with a bill of rights and the rule of law, is it still mesira? Not so straightforward.
Second, on the other side. Yelling and screaming doesn’t necessarily constitute “raglayim ledavar”, so either waiting until you have a clearer picture or asking a competent, aware, and unblinkered halachic authority for advice could be a good idea. That is, unless you hear someone say “I’m going to kill you” or something like that. Then asking your Rov or waiting for more evidence is indeed standing on the blood of your neighbor.
Third. Speaking to a Rov doesn’t necessarily mean you are asking a shailah which you are then obliged to adhere to. You can ask for advice as to what should inform your own decision making from a halachic POV, you can ask quite a bit that isn’t “tell me what to do, please”.
My personal opinion, all of this being said, is to be near certain you have cause for alarm before calling the police. Use your head. Ask a Rov for guidance or advice if you must, but YOU are hearing or seeing this, not someone on the other end of the phone. It is unfair to that Rov to expect him to make the best informed decision about the situation based on secondhand “evidence”. And finally, if you are convinced that someone is being endangered, don’t call hatzolah. Call the police. When HKBH calls you to account for it there might well be a saved life on your account to balance any possible halachic breach.
Mammele -“LC: there was no proof at that time that he was kidnapped, so police wouldn’t have done anything until 24 hours or whatever the protocol is for missing adults.”
I was going to post the same thing, but you beat me to it!
Some posters think everything is a Chumra – there’s no such thing as Halacha.“Some posters think everything is a Chumra – there’s no such thing as Halacha.”
wait, so when sombody is missing it is also assur to call the police?
Otherwise your comment is a non-sequitor. Mamele was responding to LC’s critique that police werent called in a kidnapping situation. She replied that callign police earleir wouldnt help. You agreed then added “Some posters think everything is a Chumra – there’s no such thing as Halacha.” which leaves me puzzled, what halacha would have been violated had police been called earlier (again I am not saying ti would have helped)
yichusdik
“Yelling and screaming doesn’t necessarily constitute “raglayim ledavar””nodod yhere suggested callign eveytime yo uehar yelling a nd screaming (though the OP said “shreaking”) the discussion is what to do if you hear yelling and screaming and suspect soemthing “terrible is going on” but arent sure.
“is to be near certain you have cause for alarm before calling the police”
the exact reverse is true. yo uhave to be near certain NOT to call the police. If the police show up and turns out it was the TV after all what do people think will happen? (Im really asking waht is the harm in having police stop by, how many people do you think get arrested because they were auditiong for a play or had TV or even had a non-violent arguemtn and neighbors called the police thinking the worst, is there even one example of such a thign happening? IS this such a real concern? )
IF the police dont show up it wasnt the TV…Syag, not every single thing said to you in this forum is intended as a personal insult. I was (fairly obviously) just leading up to the rest of my question, which you have not responded to. Namely:
When do you think that issue would apply? If I’m in the neighborhood playground and I hear a rumor that Mrs X is abusing her husband, do you think I should immediately call the cops?
Ubiq -“wait, so when sombody is missing it is also assur to call the police?”
Typical Ubiq comment – putting words in my mouth!
“Otherwise your comment is a non-sequitor. Mamele was responding to LC’s critique that police werent called in a kidnapping situation. She replied that callign police earleir wouldnt help. You agreed then added “Some posters think everything is a Chumra – there’s no such thing as Halacha.” which leaves me puzzled, what halacha would have been violated had police been called”
Your comprehension is failing you – as you get older!
I was then going back to the OP.Health,
Your comprehension is failing you – as you get older!
I was then going back to the OP.Sorry, misunderstanding bad writing is not the reader’s fault. If you’re changing subjects, you should state it explicitly. Otherwise, the logical interpretation is that you are still addressing the same subject.
“not every single thing said to you in this forum is intended as a personal insult.”
Every single thing in this forum? I was talking about your posts specifically, as I noted. If you don’t I tend to insult, you may want to rethink how you ask your “questions”
“Your comprehension is failing you – as you get older!
I was then going back to the OP.”So it wasnt failing me. that last line was a non-sequitor* (see below), as I said. It had absolutly nothing to do with the sentence that immediatly preceded it .
*”A non sequitur is a conclusion or reply that doesn’t follow logically from the previous statement.”
Wow, how condescending. Is this supposed to be an intellectual insult or a hashkofik one? How about i ask you instead; do you believe there’s something called kashrus? If you’re hungry does it still apply? If you have good reason to be pretty certain the mashgiach is a fraud do you close your eyes and call it mesira?
Not sure what planet your question fell from but it sure is a head scratcher(and not the first time you’ve pulled that on me either)With respect, Syag – it may not have been you who spelled it out, but others have mentioned the possibility (stated as fact, as is the way of ‘debates’ on the CR) that Mesirah is not relevant in todays day and age – something which is highly logical, actually, seeing as the legal system works entirely different and lives are no longer at stake. [It is, of course, a debate in the Poskim] I haven’t paid enough attention to this thread to know whether you do or do not support this position, but others who are rallying on ‘your side of the argument’ have mentioned it. I think it is a perfectly valid question to pose to all those who threw any mention of Mesirah out the window – when do you think that it would be relevant?
Syag, I will note that you still haven’t answered the actual question. But hey, it’s a free country – if you don’t want to answer the question, nobody’s gonna force you to.
The funny thing is that I don’t even have a dog in this fight – I didn’t suggest who I agree or disagree with. Actually, I think the whole thread is kinda silly – it’s mostly just people reiterating black and white cases where the answer is obvious, mixed with a couple of emotionally charged accusations about what the other side would do in those said black and white cases.
So, I decided to try asking some specific questions about the gray zones, and about where each of the sides would draw their respective lines. I was hoping to push this whole thread into a more calm, rational, and nuanced discussion of the many gray cases, and away from grandstanding and emotionally charged accusations.
Silly me.
yekke-
” threw any mention of Mesirah out the window ”I agree, you haven’t been following this thread.
” when do you think that it would be relevant?”
When Halacha dictates it’s relevant.
mw13 – so you want me to think that you were just popping in to ask a benign old question to calm things down and you just can’t imagine why I would take offense. Assuming you are sincere, here is the answer. You have done this to me several times. You will pop into an argument about something and accuse me of being leftist, modern or Gd knows what because I dare express we don’t jump to conclusions on something. I have told you how offensive I find that and you sometimes apologize, but then return to do it again.
In my mind, nobody who is “sincerely” asking the question would preface it with asking me if I believe there is an issue of mesira. Unless you were asking me if I believe there is an issue of mesira *here*, which is not how I understood it (I thought you were asking me if the issue exists). But then to ask me if I would believe a rumor in a playground, that cannot be taken as anything but a put down. Did you really think you could ask about a scenario that’s so blatantly wrong and expect me to think you were sincere in wanting my opinion? Do I give the impression that I call the police on playground rumors? Do you really think asking someone if they hold that way *isn’t* condescending? Frankly, that *is* pretty silly. Had you asked a straight question, I would have answered. Even though I don’t think it has much to do with the conversation and am not sure why you would even bother targeting my opinion when there are others much more learned than I am.
I hope that gives you some insight into why I see your posts as an attempt to ‘chepper’ for some reason I have yet to understand, and like many in that position i chose not to engage because the impression is that the questioner doesn’t really care.
If I am wrong (this time and all the past times), then I apologize. I will try to ‘read’ you differently but I would ask if you could somehow adjust your questioning as well.
and besides all of that, your questions had already been answeredI agree, you haven’t been following this thread
Guilty as charged.
https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/calling-cops-on-frum-beighbor/page/2/#post-1337320
In today’s day and age, the right to be offended is one of the most dearly held onto American values that I can think of. Woe be it unto me to get in the way of it (although apparently, woe be it unto me anyway).
Silly me indeed, to think I could somehow manage to steer the conversation to the actual issue, instead of emotionally charge accusations.
This conversation seems to be headed downhill at a rapid rate, and it didn’t start out too high-minded to begin with. Seeing as it is highly doubtful that this discussion will take a sudden constructive turn, this will be my last post here.
Gosh, and I stuck my neck out there thinking you really might have been sincere. Stupid me.
“this will be my last post here.”
Nice out. I guess that means you won’t be answering questions either.
Ubiq -“even had a non-violent arguemtn and neighbors called the police thinking the worst”
What would happen if he threw a pillow at her & she shreaked?
Do you also think cops should be called?!?“What would happen if he threw a pillow at her & she shreaked?
Do you also think cops should be called?!?”I dont understand the question. If he knew it was from a pillow obviosuly not.
why do you ask? Are you starting a new topic?I continue to be appalled at the armchair paskening of mesira shailos. It is similarly offensive to apply the “raglayim ledovor” psak from Rav Elyoshiv ZT”L where it has no relevance.
When there is a suspicion of molestation, one could easily argue for a shailoh to be asked. Why? Because it is not happening at the moment, and the delay in asking a Rov is not occurring while dangerous activity is happening. When danger is happening in the present, even a sofek sakana, one must act immediately. If you present me with such a situation involving abuse, i would say the same, and no one I ever discussed the subject with considers Rav Elyoshiv’s statement relevant to that. I dare to say the poskim I had these discussions with are far more qualified than any of the posters or commenters in the CR.
Meanwhile, I repeat my disdain for the amateur application of the issur of mesira where there is present danger and even sofek sakanah. Go back and learn the halachos, and once a qualified expert, restate your opinions here.
TLIK -“Meanwhile, I repeat my disdain for the amateur application of the issur of mesira where there is present danger and even sofek sakanah”
Where is there “sofek sakanah”?
The case of the OP?!?I continue to be appalled at the armchair paskening of mesira shailos.
Agreed, TLIK. One must always ask a shaila As you said, don’t pasken such a critical matter yourself, being a non-expert on this Halachic question.
Joseph:
For your thrill, just mosey over to your Rov this week, and ask him what you should do when you encounter a sofek sakanah? Should you then come ask the shailoh or should you take safety related action? Then post his response here please.
One who acts for safety, even in the case of sofek is exempt from all the halachos you push – yuour personal agenda.
Health:
I seriously doubt that the sheer decibel level of the neighbors home was distressing to where some guidance was sought (not that posting in the CR is the equivalent of asking a shailoh). If there was the belief that there was a chance of the noise indicating trouble, there is good reason to reach out to the appropriate first responders for the emergency. There are too many variables to know whether this is Hatzoloh, Shomrim, Chaveirim, Shmira, police, EMS, or fire department. What is clear is that if this is the issue, running to find your Rov at that point is neither required by halacha, nor is it responsible. Picture someone drowning. Should you try to rescue, or should you ask a shailoh? The latter is so senseless that it is offensive to make this sound like a holy thing to do.
TLIK -“There are too many variables to know whether this is Hatzoloh, Shomrim, Chaveirim, Shmira, police, EMS, or fire department.”
I agree, but the way the OP presented the case – was to call the cops!
Health:
That’s correct. Main point is that during sofek sakanah, it is against halacha to go find a Rov to ask. And for the present moment in which the actual danger is not happening, go ahead and ask all the shailos you want, including what to do when you hear noises that sound dangerous.
TLIK -“including what to do when you hear noises that sound dangerous.”
The impression that I got was the OP didn’t want to listen to his Rov, so he came here to the CR!
He/she figured that he’ll get different opinions – that way it will alleviate his guilt for not listening.mw13,
So, I decided to try asking some specific questions about the gray zones, and about where each of the sides would draw their respective lines.
That’s not at all what you did. You asked a specific question that was way outside of the gray zone, implicitly implying that Syag Lchochma thought it was a gray zone, which had the effect of suggesting that she does not care about halacha.
Suppose there was a thread about chalav stam, and you were arguing that it was acceptable to use chalav stam in some situations. And then I asked you:
Do you believe that there is an issue of kashrus? When do you think that issue would apply? If I’m in a small town at lunchtime and there’s a McDonalds across the street, do you think I should go in there and order a cheeseburger?
Is that a serious question I asked to try and tease out the boundaries of the gray area, or is that me being condescending?
And if you want to say that you did the same to Joseph, you did not. You asked him to define his own boundary of the gray area. You did not provide him a ridiculous example, like:
Do you believe that there is an issue of not standing by while your neighbor’s blood is shed? When do you think that issue would apply? If I’m in the neighborhood playground and I see Mr X chasing his wife with a kitchen knife screaming, “I will kill you!”, do you think I should immediately call the cops?
You asked a specific question that was way outside of the gray zone… suggesting that she does not care about halacha.
I didn’t read the question that way. To me, he was asking whether there would be any scenarios today which would constitute Mesirah, not whether she believes the Torah came down including a parshah of Mesirah. There is plenty mokom to say that nowadays Mesirah is no longer an issue – or at least, is not as chomur as it ever was. Not because the Torah changed, but because the legal system has changed.
yekke2,
I didn’t read the question that way. To me, he was asking whether there would be any scenarios today which would constitute Mesirah, not whether she believes the Torah came down including a parshah of Mesirah.
That’s a nice spin on the question, but I don’t agree. Here’s why: the question was ridiculous. Not even those who may hold that mesira is “not an issue” in the medina shel chessed would “immediately” call the cops based on a playground rumor. No, the question was meant to be insulting, albeit to dan l’kaf zechus, perhaps unconsciously so.
Avram, you should try to stop him. Throw something at him. Pepper spray him. The call the cops as he will undoubtedly try again.
“Not even those who may hold that mesira is “not an issue” in the medina shel chessed would “immediately” call the cops based on a playground rumor.”
How is this different from a playground rumor?
TLIK: “When there is a suspicion of molestation, one could easily argue for a shailoh to be asked. Why? Because it is not happening at the moment, and the delay in asking a Rov is not occurring while dangerous activity is happening. When danger is happening in the present, even a sofek sakana, one must act immediately.”
TLIK (and everyone else) – In this case, it is not happening at the moment – it is an ongoing situation. It happened 3 weeks before and then again the night before.
No one’s life is in immediate danger. He never stated that he was concerned that someone’s life was in danger and that IMMEDIATE action must be taken. He is even doubtful if there is any physical abuse going on at all.
Furthermore, we are talking about adults, and the OP mentioned that he is thinking of having his wife go speak to the wife. So apparently the wife is not dead or dying if he thinks that his wife can speak to her. He also apparently has not seen any signs of physical abuse.He has had ample opportunities to speak to speak to both the husband and wife since this happened. He is clearly not personally afraid of the guy and can go over himself to see if he is abusing his wife.
In this case it is most likely that they are simply yelling at each other. It happens.
Oiveyizmir (my apologies if I spelled your name wrong): In all the debates going on here, I feel like you’ve been forgotten.
First of all, how is the situation? Has it changed at all? Has it gotten better? Worse? Have you found out anything more? You mentioned that you were considering speaking to your neighbor or having your wife speak to his wife? Did either of you do that in the end?
Second of all, I really want to commend you for the way that you have been handling the situation. It must be a terrifying situation to be in. I know that personally, it gets me very nervous when I hear people fighting. And I get really upset when I hear family members being abusive to each other (even if it’s “only verbal” as you put it).
It must have been very difficult for you to refrain from calling the police when your Rav told you that he will handle the situation and that it would be (halachically) problematic for you to call the police. And when the fighting and screaming continued, it must have been really hard for you to restrain yourself.
You are right for being cautious about calling the police, but you are also right for being concerned about the situation and realizing that you should try to do whatever you can to help and not just say, “well, I called my Rav, and now I can wash my hands from the situation.”
If you still hear fighting, I would recommend that you call your Rav and find out if he is in fact doing anything. Tell him about your concerns, and tell him that the fighting is still going on, and ask him what he is doing about it. You mentioned that he is a well-respected Rav in the community, so the first step is to find out if he is really taking care of it.
But if his answer leaves you unsatisfied, then you should speak to someone else. Find another well-respected Rav/Poseik and ask him what to do. Perhaps you should speak to your neighbor yourself or have your wife speak to his wife, as you mentioned. If you are really concerned that someone is being abused (even if it’s “only” verbal), you definitely should try to do whatever you can, but make sure that you act rationally and don’t act on your emotions. Doing so could exacerbate the situation instead of helping in addition to the possible halachic issues involved.
Remember that as a Frum Jew, the most important thing to remember is not to violate any halachos. If something is against halacha, then it doesn’t help. If you are unsure if the psak you are given is correct, ask a bigger Poseik. But don’t do something against halacha.
Hatzlacha Rabba! I hope that the situation improves and that Hashem gives you the Siyata Dishmaya and the wisdom to act correctly.
” it is an ongoing situation. It happened 3 weeks before and then again the night before.”
LU
I (and most posters ) understood the question an being during the shrieking. This is apparent form most responses. And becasue the police would hang uop the phone if you tried calling that you heard screaming the previous night/last week“He is even doubtful if there is any physical abuse going on at all.”
Im not sure you now what “doubtful” means. Doubtful means it may be hapening which means she may be in danger“He also apparently has not seen any signs of physical abuse.”
That is usually the case.Oiveyizmir
Please skip LU’s last post her advice is halchicly wrong and can lead to danger. Its well written and sort of sounds reasonable, which makes it all the more dangerous.Here is the bottom line:
If you think someone is in danger call the police period. End of discussion.Few (if anybody) disagrees with this bottom line.
OF course if you are certain nobody is in danger then follow her post.Ubiq – “If you think someone is in danger call the police period. End of discussion.”
But the problem here is – all the guy heard was shrieking.
This isn’t an indication to call the cops, when you could call EMS.“But the problem here is – all the guy heard was shrieking.”
that it no way argues wit hwhat I said “If you think someone is in danger call the police period. End of discussion”If he thinks the shrieking was because they wwere praxcticing a paly, thenyes I agree dont call the cops.
Though even there, there isnt much harm if he does call the cops
cops “hi we heard shrieking”
Shrieking neighbor “oh ha we were practicing for a play”
cops “ok try to keep it down next time have a good night”The end and they all live happily ever after
If I were practicing for a play and got interrupted by the cops because my neighbor called them, I would never forgive that neighbor. One of us would have to move.
If my neighbors make that kind of noise when they practice for plays the whole building will be happy to see them go.
“If I were practicing for a play and got interrupted by the cops because my neighbor called them, I would never forgive that neighbor. One of us would have to move.”
1. how would you know which neighbor?
2. Really If there was “shreaking” you would fault your neighbor for calling the police?
3. IF a person wasnt practicing for a play and broke a limb lost their eyesight or lost a baby (all of which I and/or collegues have seen) would they forgive their neighbor for not calling?1. If I didn’t know which neighbor, I would judge all of them and hate them forever.
2. Different people have different definitions of “shrieking”. It is normal behavior for babies, for example, but I never call the cops on my neighbor who has three screaming babies.
3. He can just ask the neighbor if he is being abused.RebYidd:
Come now. You would ask the neighbor if they are being abused? Really? And you would expect the answer to be factually accurate? How many victims of abuse are frightened to death to disclose that information? How many tolerate and suffer for long periods of time before they report anything to anyone?
Review the literature on domestic violence. Let me share a few observations that were reported in the several articles and books written by and for the frum community. Women who are being beaten often hide the abuse out of shame. Many have marks from the injuries, bruises, etc. However, the men are diligent in hitting them where there will not be much exposure, and no one will know. It is not uncommon to find the first alert by the matrons in the mikva who get to see these injuries, while the victims still avoid acknowledging it or seeking help.
The idea of just marching over to ask is close to perfectly ineffective. You need another strategy to make the failure to call police not a clear violation of לא תעמוד על דם רעך.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.