Camp Prices are High

A good price is one you can afford.

Don’t go into debt for sleep-away camp.

The Wolf

wow wollf. logic……

seminary and camps are definitely MORE than just a business… would you send your kid to an institution that’s just there to make money?

ramateshkolian – I see your point, and I personally don’t send to these camps, but I am in Israel – I think the others’ point is that, at least in the states, it has gotten to a point of peer pressure, and parents who can’t afford it feel they have to send to camp and seminary because all their kids friends are going (besides the obviously great experience that is more than money but if it was just that they could make a “shikul” based on their finances – the peer pressure and making their kid not feel like a neb makes them feel they have to stretch beyond what they can…hence the resentment about the expense…IMHO)

it’s not even a peer pressure thing anymore, if everyone is in camp, and levi decides not to send his kids to camp, what should they do? there aren’t any friends around to play with?

also with some many families where the mother works, whose watching these kids if they’re not in camp?

the only solution is a rich guy, or the agudah, etc. opens a camp at cost price

The Torah has price controls.

Please illustrate where the Torah has firm price controls.

The only one I can think of off the top of my head that might be considered a price control is the issur of “ona’ah.” However, that depends on the already existing market price of an item which can fluctuate depending on supply and demand. There is no firm price control there.

Yes, there are firm prices for certain religious services (a pidyon Haben is always 5 shkalim) — but for general market goods and services, I don’t see where there are any firm price controls.

The Wolf

Camps should be viewed as a LUXURY for people that can afford them.

Parents should not feel obligated to go into debt for this. As it is parents aren’t making it.

Indeed, that’s the painful choice we had to make last year. Last year none of our kids went to camp — it just wasn’t economically possible. This year, sadly, is the same.

The Wolf

The halachic price controls are the percentage markup that is allowable.

Right. Which, as I described above, is a function of the already varying market rate. There is no fixed price control for any market good/service in the Torah. The only fixed prices are for certain religious functions (pidyon haben, chatzi shekel, etc.)

The Wolf

Wolf: I do believe the halachic limit on how much you may mark up a product in price is based upon cost.

chesedname – I dont think that having someone run a camp at cost price is a practical solution. In life you have to make choices about how to spend your money, but asking others to give you LUXURIES at cost price isnt reasonable. 1000 years ago everything worked with trade and there was no money, so when you traded your potatoes for your neighbor’s carrots you were getting the carrots at cost price. Nowadays though that wouldnt work – everyone sells their services at a profit.

Also, cost price of camps is pretty high too so if you cant afford what it is now there’s no guarantee that you’ll be able to afford cost price

(BTW there are camps like Sternberg which give a lot of scholarships)

maybe taking 10 weeks (or so) off of school a year is a little much. I don’t understand how this came to be and why it is allowed to go on. While I can relate to the teachers who want and deserve a break for sure, but 10 weeks is really a lot, especially since most rabbeim and moros don’t have to use vacation days for yomim tovim. But I think we can only take away from our rabbeim and moros when we’ve given them something like a raise in salary, or maybe even some Kavod for what they do….

Wolf, I felt like I was on the road not taken ’til I read your post… and that has made all the difference.

Seems like everyone I know sends to camp and mine are the only kids around during the day. I can’t imagine they can all afford it, and only we cannot, so something’s wrong.

Daycamps charge about $1500 for the summer (to be fair, that’s usually after transportation and tips, especially if you got the early bird special.) When you have a few kids to send, that’s an expensive 8 weeks!

I am very grateful that we are up-to-date on our tuitions, though.

“Indeed, that’s the painful choice we had to make last year. Last year none of our kids went to camp — it just wasn’t economically possible. This year, sadly, is the same.”

If yur letting yur kids stay home and watch the TV all day yur bringing them harm. Every1 nos that a free summer without rules can undo all the work that a yeshvia did for the kid all year.

As for how much a camp can/should or is reasonable to charge there is no answer. Every camp would and does have different variables such as mortgage on the property, number of campers, number of staff, payroll for Rebbeim and other employees, supplies needed, insurance, expenses and so on. There is no way to compare one to another and no way to assume whether one is fare or not. Fare is choosing a camp that fits your budget and hashkafas towards your kids. If your kids are happy you are happy, and if YOU are overburdened and financially drained the kids can feel your stress and cannot possibly be happy.

Everyone needs to learn to live within their means and budget themselves accordingly. There is always going to be someone out there who is going to do better and afford more than we can. There is always going to be someone out there that will start a new trend and get a cazilion people to follow them. Remember the Torah tells us neither a leader nor a follower be. One must determine for oneself the path they must take, and they have to do so without considering what the neighbors will say.

PERHAPS one of the reasons the costs for camp are higher is because of some of the expenses incurred by the camp. If these costs would go away, perhaps camp prices would come down. Do camps have to go on trips all the time? When I was in camp 25 years ago, the trip was going to camp (and in sleepaway camp the major trip, was to the local blwling alley). Concerts twice a summer? Specialty activities such as white water rafting and trips to water parks? (It is true that some camps now charge a “trip fee” on top of the camp fee)

Yes, there are certain fixed costs that exist no matter what, but there is a lot of extra fluff that can costs tens of thousands of dollars that can be done away with. BUT, would you want to send your kid to that nebby camp that doesnt do all those cool and exciting things? How could you face your kid? How could your kid face their friends. What, your camp didnt go on the three day excurion to Niagra Falls, what a horrible summer you must have had.